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Old 07-27-2010, 05:23 PM   #61
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OP, just a piece of advice: you come across as having a huge chip on your shoulder. Relax a bit, be a little less shrill and you will get along with the regulars a lot better. Nobody is telling you that securities investing is the only possible path to FIRE. Take it easy.
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Old 07-27-2010, 05:38 PM   #62
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Westernskies, I'd appreciate it if you would contribute constructively to the thread...
OK. I believe you are another the next RE genius, boldly going where no man has ever gone before with other people's money. Can't wait for the 4-year update.


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I have no problem with you attacking me either, but please send it to me via PM.
Check your PM...
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Old 07-27-2010, 06:29 PM   #63
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OP, just a piece of advice: you come across as having a huge chip on your shoulder. Relax a bit, be a little less shrill and you will get along with the regulars a lot better. Nobody is telling you that securities investing is the only possible path to FIRE. Take it easy.
Thanks for the advice.

I began working at 14 yrs old at a grain factory in VT. I've worked every year afterward during weekends, week nights, and summers at various jobs while schooling. During childhood it was ingrained by the parents to work hard, save money, and invest in mutual funds and bonds. 'Someday you might retire early, a few years before normal retirement (...and this is not meant to put down 'later' early retirees. I respect people who accomplish what they want)'. It wasn't simply my parents however - it was everyone I spoke to. I even worked as a financial agent/adviser at Primerica and they harped the popular stock/bond approach...

However, I now discovered the problem was I wasn't talking to the right people. I was talking to people who were on pace to retire at 65 or slightly before. They couldn't give the aggressive financial advice I needed to retire early because they didn't know it first hand (I don't want to come off as a know it all, but I consider this to be true).

I feel others with similar goals cave in to common blanket statements and live an unhappy life. I don't want to come off with a chip on my shoulder, but with confidence to show others there are more options, as cliché as that sounds.
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Old 07-27-2010, 06:43 PM   #64
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I feel others with similar goals cave in to common blanket statements and live an unhappy life. I don't want to come off with a chip on my shoulder, but with confidence to show others there are more options, as cliché as that sounds.
chip on my shoulder never crossed my mind...
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Old 07-27-2010, 07:17 PM   #65
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Thanks Nord, I respect your opinion.
I'm not trying to trash others goals who want to follow 'the man and stock plan'. I respect Brewer's path as it fits his goals!!
But I defininately don't want that, and want to offer knowledge that other approaches do exist for aggresive RE. The corporate plan is a dead end for me and I'm probably not alone.
My shorter term goal is semi retirement, away from corporate america. I haven't focussed much on retirement #2. What would you suggest I do with the real estate if I want a full time retirement?
It's interesting that you feel your first dozen or so posts should offer to educate the rest of the board on ER strategy. This board has active posters who've been here (or on its predecessors) for over a decade. For example, searching through a few hundred posts on the board for keywords like "real estate", "landlord", and "rental" would help get to know the members who are already financially independent from our rental-property approaches. It's possible that, even without a lecture on lease-to-own, they could tell about their own experiences in that area.

This board is big, crowded, noisy, and busy. For several years there have been dozens of posters who've started off in the manner you appear to have chosen. Many of them have been spammers and trolls or, at best, highly opinionated in their approach and short-lived in their board activity. In other words, with that approach I think you're going to have some trouble getting people to take you very seriously. You could lurk for a while, or you could ask questions in a less provocative manner. But those would be at odds with your general overall tone of impatience.

My suggestion? Read the books that I've been recommending on this board which cover the approaches you could take to ER'ing out of your real-estate holdings: (1) Investing in Real Estate, 4th edition or later, by Andrew McLean & Gary W. Eldred (who's taken over the new editions) and (2) Landlording by Leigh Robinson (7th edition or later). I think they've held up pretty well over the years and they're worth a few hours of thoughtful contemplation. Then you can find the approach that's right for you, although it doesn't carry the benefit of lecturing other board members on how they should respond to your posts.

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Does anyone know of other low barrier retirement strategies that can create a quick retirement?
Perhaps before you PM TromboneAl you'll read a few more posts on the board, especially his, and get a feeling for what other approaches people are taking to ER.

But if that approach isn't working for you, then don't let me discourage you from asking Al how his neighbor is accelerating their ER through innovative applications of rental property.
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Old 07-27-2010, 10:48 PM   #66
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/snip/

However, I now discovered the problem was I wasn't talking to the right people. I was talking to people who were on pace to retire at 65 or slightly before. They couldn't give the aggressive financial advice I needed to retire early because they didn't know it first hand (I don't want to come off as a know it all, but I consider this to be true).

/snip/

Wow... this sounds like the get rich people on TV... and an old friend who wanted to sell vitamins.... (hey, someone conned my wife into this... she thought she was going to get rich)....

Like it has been said before... you might actually get there with your strategy.... but there are others who have seen others with the same message sink... come back in 4 years and give an update... but don't try and make it sound like everybody can make a killing in RE (which is how you sound)... because they have people on TV that ARE millionaires that will sell me the know how for a few thousand $$$$s.... (note, they did not make their millions in RE....)...


And another piece of info.... I bet that more people have become millionaires with stocks than with RE... by a good factor...
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Old 08-03-2010, 06:00 PM   #67
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Wow... this sounds like the get rich people on TV... and an old friend who wanted to sell vitamins.... (hey, someone conned my wife into this... she thought she was going to get rich)....

Like it has been said before... you might actually get there with your strategy.... but there are others who have seen others with the same message sink... come back in 4 years and give an update... but don't try and make it sound like everybody can make a killing in RE (which is how you sound)... because they have people on TV that ARE millionaires that will sell me the know how for a few thousand $$$$s.... (note, they did not make their millions in RE....)...
Scams are everywhere and they don't discriminate. Good advice here. Do research - read the books, take the seminars, join a local real estate association. Education is not only priceless but makes money!

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And another piece of info.... I bet that more people have become millionaires with stocks than with RE... by a good factor...
No doubt, this is true.

When I ran the retirement calculators, I couldn't see myself working for a company another 10+ years without a plan B. Thats why I went into real estate.
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Old 08-03-2010, 11:32 PM   #68
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No offense but isn't that what your post was... and now this post is - spam.

Seriously, why do advisers evangelize the stock market as the best and fastest avenue to retirement? Is it a case of teach what you know and thats what advisers know?

There seems to be gapping holes in knowledge/communication of how to retire early. Working for 'the man', saving, and mutual fund investing is only one way to retire (in 10+ years). Thats certainly not for me - I don't want to spend 10+ years being told what, when, and how.
Well, there is another possibility. Find something that you actually enjoy doing. I know for the first 6-8 years of my working career, I wasn't doing anything near what I wanted to do. Then, I started downt the path I wanted. Subsequently, for the 12-15 years after that I more than enjoyed the work that I was doing. I am now focusing my efforts to semi-retiring in 14-15 years, when our mortgage will be paid and the older 2 of our 4 kids will potentially have graduated from college, and the next 2 will be 1 year behind that.
While I am not enjoying it quite as much as I once did, I am starting to enjoy it more, since I am doing things outside of work for myself, if for no reason other than to better myself.
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Old 08-04-2010, 12:16 AM   #69
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No, not a magic bullet! But lots of hard work. I feel it's a viable option for people looking to retire sooner than 10 years. I've seen several lease purchase strategies, and frankly many are lose win opportunities (for the owner and/or renter). A win win keeps a happy renter/purchaser and landlord.

Of course no investment is risk proof, and lease purchase sits a top the risk spectrum. However, I do believe thorough strategies mitigate potential hazards.

Does anyone know of other low barrier retirement strategies that can create a quick retirement?
Live at home (or share a place for little or no rent). Save 90% of your take home pay (only using 10% of it to provide food), and put into investments that make 8.4%/yr on average. Do this for 15 years. You'll have enough at age 45 to live at the same level you did before, and only withdraw at a rate of 4.5%/yr from your investments until you can receive SS.

Not the prettiest suggestion, but somewhat valid based off of an income of $25,000/yr and subtracting out taxes paid.
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Old 08-04-2010, 01:03 PM   #70
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I found a real estate vs paper investing debate yesterday. The argument was for real estate so bias existed, but it provided valid information on why real estate could be vehicle to retire faster.

1.) If you had $100,000, how much paper assets can you buy? Exactly $100,000. Thats how much money was used to purchase the paper.

If you had $100,000 how much real estate can you buy? Maybe $500,000, maybe $1,000,000, maybe more. Leverage can buy 10x or 20x more than you actually invest.

2.) How much are $100,000 of paper assets worth when you bought them. Again exactly $100,000. Thats what the paper was worth when purchased at that particular time.

How much is the $1,000,000 of real estate worth that was purchased with $100,000? Could be $750,000. Or could be $1,500,000. I don't know what this is called, but through my own investing, know that it definately exists and is ready to be taken advantage of with proper research.

3.) How can you increase the value of the $100,000 in paper? Maybe write a letter to the company CEO? I don't know.

How can you increase the value of the of the $1,500,000? We could spend all day discussing this.


Of course there are negatives to real estate vs paper assets. One is time. Real estate will take more time in research and following the purchasing/fixing/renting process.

Just some points worth posting for thoughs looking to retire earlier.
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Old 08-04-2010, 01:23 PM   #71
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i can't wait for the update...
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Old 08-04-2010, 01:36 PM   #72
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When I was a boy men on my street raised families of 6-8 children on a well run bar. The things that work are always changing, but always there.
In college, I was the bar manager at the busiest bar in town. It was a yuppie place, with free popcorn and peanuts. Most weekends, we would take in $35,000. An average week was $55,000 CASH. This was the early to mid 1980's in a college town! The owner was an idiot and kept draining our bar to keep his other restaurants alive...

He got into fiancial trouble and my best friend's dad put together an investor group and tried to convince him to sell. he refused, and went out of business less than 2 years later. ALL of his other businesses followed suit...........so it doesn't always work out........
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Old 08-04-2010, 01:51 PM   #73
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I found a real estate vs paper investing debate yesterday. The argument was for real estate so bias existed,
Fine. I expect, and accept that just about all information I see will be biased. However, when they don't get basic facts straight, I call BS. And I'm calling BS.


Quote:
1.) If you had $100,000, how much paper assets can you buy? Exactly $100,000. Thats how much money was used to purchase the paper.
Demonstrably False. There are many ways one can leverage a paper investment. Margin gets you a mere 2x (ho-hum). I can buy calls (even in my IRA) and gain 100x or more leverage, have (theoretically) unlimited gains, and have a defined maximum loss of no more than my investment amount. A 'short sale' could never happen. Yet we hear about them every single day in Real Estate.



Quote:
How much is the $1,000,000 of real estate ...? Could be $750,000. Or could be $1,500,000.
Everyday people claim to buy stocks at below their 'fair market value'. Maybe they are right maybe they are wrong. But I say the value of something is measured by what you can sell it for today. If someone sold it to you for $1.00, it's worth $1.00, not $1.50. I won't argue the point with you, believe what you want. But the rubber meets the road when the pen hits the contract.

Quote:
3.) How can you increase the value of the $100,000 in paper? Maybe write a letter to the company CEO? I don't know.
Well then, you learned something today. I've learned a lot from this forum, it feels good to 'give back'.


Quote:
Of course there are negatives to real estate vs paper assets. One is time. Real estate will take more time in research and following the purchasing/fixing/renting process.
Fair enough. I don't know why people keep comparing them then. They are different beasts. If one or the other suits you, fine.


Quote:
but it provided valid information on why real estate could be vehicle to retire faster.
It also provided valid information on why real estate could be vehicle to go broke faster. Leverage works both ways. But you acknowledged there could be bias in the article, so that's OK.

Quote:
Just some points worth posting for thoughs (those?) looking to retire earlier.
It's fine to post them for others to think about. I appreciate differing viewpoints. I don't feel the same about including a conclusion in the process. Let the reader decide if it will help them to 'retire earlier' or not.

I sense it wasn't just the article that was biased.

To be clear, since that might have come across a bit rough - I have no problem with anyone who decides that RE is the way for them to prosper. Do as you see fit, and I'll wish you well. But if you try to make a case for it by misrepresenting the alternatives, I smell an agenda. Agendas smell a lot like BS.

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Old 08-04-2010, 02:05 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by srlimoges View Post
I found a real estate vs paper investing debate yesterday. The argument was for real estate so bias existed, but it provided valid information on why real estate could be vehicle to retire faster.

1.) If you had $100,000, how much paper assets can you buy? Exactly $100,000. Thats how much money was used to purchase the paper.

If you had $100,000 how much real estate can you buy? Maybe $500,000, maybe $1,000,000, maybe more. Leverage can buy 10x or 20x more than you actually invest.

2.) How much are $100,000 of paper assets worth when you bought them. Again exactly $100,000. Thats what the paper was worth when purchased at that particular time.

How much is the $1,000,000 of real estate worth that was purchased with $100,000? Could be $750,000. Or could be $1,500,000. I don't know what this is called, but through my own investing, know that it definately exists and is ready to be taken advantage of with proper research.

3.) How can you increase the value of the $100,000 in paper? Maybe write a letter to the company CEO? I don't know.

How can you increase the value of the of the $1,500,000? We could spend all day discussing this.


Of course there are negatives to real estate vs paper assets. One is time. Real estate will take more time in research and following the purchasing/fixing/renting process.

Just some points worth posting for thoughs looking to retire earlier.

OKKKKKK.... just a point or two on your posts...

You CAN buy more 'paper' as you call it than $100,000. It is called purchasing on margin.... if you want to make the gamble and do it with the right stocks you can probably get about $300,000 invested.

You will be hard pressed to get 20X in RE. I would think 10X is close to the upper limit (without some owner financing or other kind of deals that are under the radar). So, max $1,000,000.... but more than likely $500K to $700K.


Your next sentance makes no sense... if you purchased $1 mill in RE... it is worth $1 mill... now, it might go up and down from there over time... but it is not $500K or $1.5 mill then...

But, say it is the $1 mill... and the value of the RE goes down to $900K... guess what... you are now bankrupt with an illiquid asset but with loan payments that must be met. What if you can not rent it out for a month or two... do you have enough cash flow to overcome that?

What if there is a natural disaster, such as hurricane, tornado, flooding, wind damage, fire etc. etc.... for sure you are not getting any income from them plus you have to hope that you have enough insurance to cover the disaster.

How do you affect the value of the RE Not as much as you might think. Yes, you can improve the property (by spending money) and make it more valuable... that is if you do not get the price out of range of the neighborhood... market forces have more to do with the value than you probably think... there is a sq. ft. rate for most location... usually you can not get to much more than that rate no matter how good yours is...

RE can take a lot of time... if you want, paper can be something that you take a look at once a year (or even less from what I have seen of some people)....


Now, I am not saying RE is bad... just that there are a lot of risks that most people do not consider. People think that the leverage is good... but forget that it also works on the downside and can wipe you out faster than you think. RE is also not liquid. RE also requires you to get tenants, deal with them and also deal with the taxes. I would much rather not spend the time and energy doing this JOB. I get paid very well doing the job I have.
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Old 08-04-2010, 02:21 PM   #75
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To be clear, since that might have come across a bit rough - I have no problem with anyone who decides that RE is the way for them to prosper. Do as you see fit, and I'll wish you well. But if you try to make a case for it by misrepresenting the alternatives, I smell an agenda. Agendas smell a lot like BS.

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I agree with most everything you posted except leverage about paper assets that I didn't/don't know about.

And about agendas. Sounds like a glass-is-half-empty assumption, but I understand this financial site is probably littered with financial scam agendas most days, so your concerns make sense.

Thanks for info about paper asset leverage.
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Old 08-04-2010, 02:31 PM   #76
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The point he is making on #2 is that real estate bargains exist, and if you are in a position to take advantage of them you can make a lot of $. In other words, the real estate market is not as efficient as the stock market.
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Old 08-04-2010, 02:33 PM   #77
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OKKKKKK.... just a point or two on your posts...

You CAN buy more 'paper' as you call it than $100,000. It is called purchasing on margin.... if you want to make the gamble and do it with the right stocks you can probably get about $300,000 invested.
Didn't really know about this - it wasn't mentioned in the debate and haven't heard much about it. Is it difficult to do? Or are the drawbacks really bad?

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You will be hard pressed to get 20X in RE. I would think 10X is close to the upper limit (without some owner financing or other kind of deals that are under the radar). So, max $1,000,000.... but more than likely $500K to $700K.
I've learned that banks will leverage the heck out of real estate. Even if you but only 10% down, you can get that 10% back with a HEL or HELOC or even a refinance.

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Your next sentance makes no sense... if you purchased $1 mill in RE... it is worth $1 mill... now, it might go up and down from there over time... but it is not $500K or $1.5 mill then...
Like the post above this (sorry forgot your forum name) I agree with him/her on this. I've heard of many desparate sellers willing to take under market price to get out of the property...because their relocating, they can't afford the property (short sale), they just want out of real estate. I guess this would be similar to the papers market.[/QUOTE]

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What if there is a natural disaster, such as hurricane, tornado, flooding, wind damage, fire etc. etc.... for sure you are not getting any income from them plus you have to hope that you have enough insurance to cover the disaster.
Renters insurance would take care of this instance.

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Originally Posted by Texas Proud View Post
Now, I am not saying RE is bad... just that there are a lot of risks that most people do not consider. People think that the leverage is good... but forget that it also works on the downside and can wipe you out faster than you think. RE is also not liquid. RE also requires you to get tenants, deal with them and also deal with the taxes. I would much rather not spend the time and energy doing this JOB. I get paid very well doing the job I have.
Agreed that leverage is good if your thorough, a risk taker, and have a little luck.
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Old 08-04-2010, 02:36 PM   #78
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The point he is making on #2 is that real estate bargains exist, and if you are in a position to take advantage of them you can make a lot of $. In other words, the real estate market is not as efficient as the stock market.
Thanks for clarifying. (the words sound good in the head but don't translate well in writing)
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Old 08-04-2010, 03:45 PM   #79
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In other words, the real estate market is not as efficient as the stock market.
Possibly. But again, that is not an "all gravy" situation. Just like leverage, it can work for you or against you.

You may find that the market is inefficient (in a direction you don't like) when you need to sell. Ooops!

The number one lesson in investing (of any type) is go in with your eyes open, critique the investment. I'm seeing a lot of white-washing here.

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Old 08-04-2010, 04:48 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by srlimoges View Post
I found a real estate vs paper investing debate yesterday. The argument was for real estate so bias existed, but it provided valid information on why real estate could be vehicle to retire faster.

1.) If you had $100,000, how much paper assets can you buy? Exactly $100,000. Thats how much money was used to purchase the paper.
Wrong. Have you never heard of margin?

Quote:
If you had $100,000 how much real estate can you buy? Maybe $500,000, maybe $1,000,000, maybe more. Leverage can buy 10x or 20x more than you actually invest.
Wrong again. Go talk to your banker about 90 or 95% loans on investment property.

Quote:
2.) How much are $100,000 of paper assets worth when you bought them. Again exactly $100,000. Thats what the paper was worth when purchased at that particular time.

How much is the $1,000,000 of real estate worth that was purchased with $100,000? Could be $750,000. Or could be $1,500,000. I don't know what this is called, but through my own investing, know that it definately exists and is ready to be taken advantage of with proper research.
This could be correct, but the same holds for securities. If you are a better analyst or more prescient than the next guy, you buy $s with half$s. Either depends on skill.

Quote:
3.) How can you increase the value of the $100,000 in paper? Maybe write a letter to the company CEO? I don't know.

How can you increase the value of the of the $1,500,000? We could spend all day discussing this.
This is true, but if you are the guy who can do this, best to get at it and don't waste any more time on internet bs.

Ha
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