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Old 05-03-2016, 09:16 AM   #21
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I was expecting some negative responses to the word Ameriprise, but a resounding hate. Wow. I will think hard about what to do next. Two posters recommended Vanguard. Perhaps, I could simply roll everything into Vanguard and let them re-position my current mutual funds?

Why is Vanguard so recommended? My wife had a bad experience with her 403B and is hesitant.

Here's a tough question: Is is fairly straight forward to transfer all of my Ameriprise holding into a brokerage acct? I worry that my tax history and dates and all that will get lost. For this reason I would worry about transferring to my personal brokerage. Would it be better to have a different advisor, like Vanguard, handle all that? Is there some complexity here?
The three companies I see most often recommended here are Vangaurd, Fidelity and Schwab. All offer low cost investment selections and you will find many positive comments about all three. Vanguard was the leader in providing low cost mutual funds but now you have good choices.

I am personally only familiar with Vanguard. To give you some feel for costs, all the mutual funds I use have (1) no front end fees (2) no 12-1b fees and (3) no closing fees. All are index funds but one and have a simple yearly fee, typically 0.09-0.13%. I have one non-index mutual fund that Vanguard actively manages, they charge 0.32%. No other hidden costs that I have been able to find.

I manage my own assets but call Vanguard when needed about specific questions I have. They provide this service free and have proved very knowledgable/helpful. If I wanted them to fully manage my assets, they charge 0.3% of the assets they manage (edit: on top of the fees mentioned above). I keep my investments simple (index mutual funds, a few stocks and one managed mutual fund) and generally hold longer term so don't feel any need for this service but have recommended it to my wife in the event of my passing before she does.

I have transferred assets from a TD Ameritrade Roth account to Vanguard. Was done in 30 minutes with Vanguard help. I set up a phone conference with Vanguard rep, he brought in a transfer specialist, we talked through what I wanted to do, they filled out forms and sent to me via email, I read and electronically signed and returned. This all took ~ 30 minutes. Then after the call was done, Vanguard worked directly with TDA to make the transfer happen and emailed me when completed (about 1 week). All cost basis, etc... came over correctly into the new Vanguard account.

I will always have one account elsewhere just to ensure not all my eggs are in one basket....but very happy with my Vanguard experiences over the years. I think you will find similar experiences from others with Fidelity and Schwab.
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:08 AM   #22
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It really depends if you are comfortable selecting the funds and investments and if you feel you need guidance/hand holding during market turbulence. Many people push the panic button like in 08 and earlier this year and have never been able to recover. Paying someone to help you avoid shooting yourself in the foot can be well worth the money.


I think up to 1.5% is reasonable, but if you have close to seven figures, closer to 1% is more reasonable for this. You can certainly save money at Vanguard if you want to try to do it yourself and fees do matter tremendously over time. The difference between 6.5% and say 7.2% over 30 years on $500k is $725k.


Manhattan is the most expensive place to live in the country in terms of cost of living. I have family out there so I know. My real estate taxes here in the sticks in Fairfield County Connecticut at the very end of the commuter line are $33k and heating cost is $7k a year on a modest $1.7mm home. I feel your pain, but at least you have nice weather!
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:20 AM   #23
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Another thing you can discuss with Vanguard is having them do a financial plan for you. Depending on how much you have invested with them, it can cost up to $200. I spent my $200 and got a financial plan with recommended allocations and index fund selections. This plan included my megacorp 401k index funds. I made the moves for the 401k and Vanguard moved my assets I had with them to complete the overall allocations. I continue to move the funds within my 401k to maintain the determined balance and it all works for me. Probably the best $200 I ever spent on investment advice.
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:22 AM   #24
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It really depends if you are comfortable selecting the funds and investments and if you feel you need guidance/hand holding during market turbulence. Many people push the panic button like in 08 and earlier this year and have never been able to recover. Paying someone to help you avoid shooting yourself in the foot can be well worth the money.


I think up to 1.5% is reasonable, but if you have close to seven figures, closer to 1% is more reasonable for this. .
Guidance at 1.5% plus 2% fund fees is bullchit!

1% is outlandish for a 7 figure amount IMHO. Before my DF passed he paid a third party to manage his 300 K of investments, paying 1%, I asked and they agreed to drop down to. 75%. This was a Fidelity only advisor so no loads or 12B1 fees.

Vanguard does it for .30%! Why pay 5X for advice to buy funds with 5-6X the cost!
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:36 AM   #25
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Guidance at 1.5% plus 2% fund fees is bullchit!

1% is outlandish for a 7 figure amount IMHO. Before my DF passed he paid a third party to manage his 300 K of investments, paying 1%, I asked and they agreed to drop down to. 75%. This was a Fidelity only advisor so no loads or 12B1 fees.

Vanguard does it for .30%! Why pay 5X for advice to buy funds with 5-6X the cost!
I agree, annuities can cost up to 3.5%. They are for amateurish investor types who need "guarantees". I think 1.5% all in for under $500k is fair, including fund expenses and advisory fees.

If you are paying 3.5%, and start taking out 5% in an annuity, expect your investment to steadily drop in value over time; the annuity companies force you to have a conservative allocation to provide the guarantees so a 6% return is about what you would expect, minus 3.5% fees, minus 5% withdrawal- you are spending principal. However, depending on the contract, you may have a guaranteed withdrawal rate for life, so even if your investment goes to zero, the insurance company may still make payments.

I don't like annuities, they are expensive and there is little opportunity for growth and to provide a legacy, but for some people, they are appropriate. But when you buy one, just know you are turning over your capital to an insurance company in return for a promise. Some people are fine with that.


I should also point out that there are some lower cost annuity alternatives but the guarantees are not the same. Also, with annuities, any gain you have is ordinary income. The salespeople always tout their tax advantages and it is true that over time, you do get tax deferred growth and some contracts will allow you to be more aggressive, but at the end instead of getting tax efficient dividend income, you may be getting ordinary income. Most people don't understand this- the difference between dividend income and ordinary income is huge.
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:58 AM   #26
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However, it seems like you do not have much saved on a $200K salary...
+1. Dump your adviser. Read 'Four Pillars of Investment' and 'Random walk down the wall street', educate yourself on basics and go to Vanguard....You can then decide yourself whether advise you receive is good/bad.
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Old 05-03-2016, 11:21 AM   #27
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We use Fidelity for post tax + IRA accounts and Vanguard for my 401k. We enjoy far lower fees than you do. Our investments are mostly indexes with about 45% stocks and the rest bonds. We've had this strategy since the great recession and have done well. I wouldn't dream of paying the fees for a service that is so likely to underperform us. Oh, and we have nearly quadruple of what you have accumulated on a smaller salary, although we're older at 58.



Sent from my iPhone using Early Retirement Forum
Thanks everyone for your thoughtful responses. A few people have commented on my low savings relative to salary. Just wanted everyone to know that I am a committed saver. I started working later in life, took years learning a currently valuable skill, and have been making progressively higher income for the last 10 years. In those 10 years I have purchased a home, paid off all my and my spouses college debt, had two kids, now credit card debt, and saved what looks to be $500k by the end of this year. All in 10 years. I plan on taking a lot of the advise learned here and hope to stay on the forums so that I can be FA free when comfortable. Keep the comments coming if you got em'.

Thanks a lot!
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Old 05-03-2016, 11:46 AM   #28
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Some folks are confusing portions of my post. My ameriprise account is primarily being used for retirement mutual fund investing. The only fees are those wrapped in the funds. I posted their fund picks and the consensus is that the expense ratio fees are too high at 2% and that the back end loading is "evil". I don't argue this at all. The 1.5% annual fee would be for a separate account that is dedicated for active stock trading that they will manage as long as $100k is kept in the account. Stocks should not have built in fees like mutual funds. That was their offer. I did not accept it, wanted to research it, and ended up here. We can rip Ameriprise for sure.
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Old 05-03-2016, 12:29 PM   #29
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Some folks are confusing portions of my post. My ameriprise account is primarily being used for retirement mutual fund investing. The only fees are those wrapped in the funds. I posted their fund picks and the consensus is that the expense ratio fees are too high at 2% and that the back end loading is "evil". I don't argue this at all. The 1.5% annual fee would be for a separate account that is dedicated for active stock trading that they will manage as long as $100k is kept in the account. Stocks should not have built in fees like mutual funds. That was their offer. I did not accept it, wanted to research it, and ended up here. We can rip Ameriprise for sure.
OK so Ameriprise is taking the 12B1 fee(1%) on your funds expense ratio and then charging 1.5% on the stock. Then you have the cruel and evil back end loads.

Still a bad deal for you. There will be other changes that get tacked on when you leave but ignore them. Run. Run..
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Old 05-03-2016, 12:37 PM   #30
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Age = 50 male
Desired retirement age = 60 - 65
All the other comments re your FA are spot on, no need for me to add anything.

I'll take a different tack, per Steve Covey: "Begin with the end in mind".

So, you want to retire in 10-15 yrs. You have liquid assets, but only 50K net worth when you subtract your mortgage.

Key questions:

- How much do you spend yearly (actual, not guessed)?

- How much will you spend in retirement (projected)?

- How much savings do you need to retire at target age? At what Safe Withdrawal Rate (SWR)? I'd suggest 4% or lower (ie spend 4% or less yearly, inflation adjusted, of total savings in retirement). Your FA should have told you this, but the number will be much less if you minimize or eliminate advisor fees.

- How much do you need to save each year to get to retirement? All this depends heavily on your life expenses and your investment expenses (financial advisor, fund fees). Firecalc and other simulators are greatly helpful figuring this out.

I think retiring in 10-15 years will be a big order, but possible if you run a tight ship by reducing expenses and saving aggressively. But you need yearly goals... The process will have to be managed aggressively. You many or may not choose to use a FA, but success or failure to reach retirement is primarily in your hands.

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Old 05-03-2016, 01:01 PM   #31
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I would not be in a huge hurry moving your accounts given the back-end loads you may incur. Usually, when it happened to me (was once with Merril Lynch but now DIY), the back-end loads decreased each year and totally disappeared at some point. I'd wait until the back end load is zero, possibly 1% before consider moving the assets.

The after tax brokerage could be moved to Vanguard in kind, though I'd expect Ameriprise will charge a transfer fee. Would not advise giving Ameriprise any new money. Open a Vanguard or Fidelity account.

It appears you have an annuity in your traditional IRA, that is a totally separate issue and discussion, it may be best to keep, maybe not, depends on terms and why you purchased it.

If your moving to DIY, not all accounts need to be at one place, my wife and I have accounts at Vanguard, TR Price (brokerage only), Fidelity (401k), and Franklin Mutual, and the government TSP. Slowly consolidating.
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Old 05-03-2016, 02:02 PM   #32
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We use Fidelity for post tax + IRA accounts and Vanguard for my 401k. We enjoy far lower fees than you do. Our investments are mostly indexes with about 45% stocks and the rest bonds. We've had this strategy since the great recession and have done well. I wouldn't dream of paying the fees for a service that is so likely to underperform us. Oh, and we have nearly quadruple of what you have accumulated on a smaller salary, although we're older at 58.
I am quite close to this situation. I also recommend that you look into Fidelity. They have matched the low Vanguard fees for the most part and can provide whatever level of service you want, sometimes with no management fee. I would not pay a percentage of assets to anyone, but at least get it below .3%. I transferred major funds to Fidelity this year and the tax basis came along, so you should be good there also.
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Old 05-03-2016, 02:05 PM   #33
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Thanks for your inputs. I am a little worried about the annuity, too. I have been communicating with some others outside of this forum. The annuity is from a roll-over from my previous job. This was purchased about 8 years ago. I believe my spouse has the same one for her current 403B which we contribute to every month.

I have heard that this is not normal and frowned upon by some investors. Can you please clarify why?
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Old 05-03-2016, 03:29 PM   #34
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Re2Boys
Thanks for your inputs. I am a little worried about the annuity, too......I have heard that this is not normal and frowned upon by some investors. Can you please clarify why?
Again, you will find good input from supporters and non-supporters of annuities on this board. From what I've read, some types of annuities are better than others and good annuities make sense in some situations but not others. I don't have an annuity and never seriously considered them but a search of "annuities" finds many threads on the topic here and on Boggleheads such as:


https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Category:Annuities - (general discussion of types)

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43291

7 reasons not to buy an annuity

Annuity thoughts

Questions for lifetime annuity holders!
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Old 05-03-2016, 04:21 PM   #35
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I was expecting some negative responses to the word Ameriprise, but a resounding hate. Wow. I will think hard about what to do next. Two posters recommended Vanguard. Perhaps, I could simply roll everything into Vanguard and let them re-position my current mutual funds?

Why is Vanguard so recommended? My wife had a bad experience with her 403B and is hesitant.

Here's a tough question: Is is fairly straight forward to transfer all of my Ameriprise holding into a brokerage acct? I worry that my tax history and dates and all that will get lost. For this reason I would worry about transferring to my personal brokerage. Would it be better to have a different advisor, like Vanguard, handle all that? Is there some complexity here?
To be clear, my response would have been the same for any FA who charges 1.5% and put clients in high expense funds with back end loads... though I concede that IME Ameriprise is known for high fees and high expense funds so the very mention of their name puts my BS meter on high alert.

I have used Vanguard for over 20 years and most appreciate their low fees and appropriate and consistently good investment advice. As you may or may not know, Vanguard is essentially a cooperative... the investment manager, fund administrators and distributors are all owned by the funds... like a mutual bank or mutual insurer... there are no shareholders to be satisfied which is part of the reason that their fees are so low (along with economies of scale).

I concede that Vanguard's service can be spotty... often it is very good and sometimes it is poor... luckily I have had really good Flagship representatives who have been good at sorting out the times I have received poor service and these days I just contact them directly unless I have something simple.

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PB4USKI
A few more comments.
The fees I am paying are not quite as bad as you make them out to be. Just to clarify, I do not pay any fees on the current mutual funds I have in that there is no monthly or yearly fee and there is no transaction fee. These fees are "hidden" in the returns. So, in your comparison PVSBX fee (expense ratio) is 2% yearly where Wellington fee is 0.18%. Is this accurate or am I missing something?
The 1.5% fee would only be on the assets in the brokerage account that they set up to buy and sell (manage) individual stocks.

I am in no way defending them. Just trying to clarify my post.

So, the question, is the 2% fee for PVSBX outrageous for a mutual fund? MRG used the term Evil when talking about 1% 12B1 and another 1% for the fund (which I assume is expense ratio)....
Thanks for the clarification... and yes, IMO 2% is outrageous for a balanced fund.

Here is a better, more successful source of investment advice for you.

http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2016/...bBaad-w6yXW0PA
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Old 05-03-2016, 05:24 PM   #36
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Welcome to the group!

First I think it's vital that you gain a good understanding yourself before taking any action on recommendations (including mine).

So I think the questions asked previously about what you need to retire, how much you spend, etc are vital.

For investing I think it's vital to understand taxes, fees and inflation... more important than market returns because you can control them more . I recommend reading jlcollins series on it... it also covers some elements of retirement.

http://jlcollinsnh.com/stock-series/


Now my personal advice which should be taken with grains of salt.

The biggest revelation for me was understanding that the way investments work is like a job.

If you have 500K for example, you can expect that job to pay you around 20K/year inflation adjusted forever. That's using the 4% rule" which you can find out about and easily adjust.

If you're gainfully employed, your income is a second job ... if not, you have to live on that income your asset job brings in.

So I remove the 500K and replace it with 20K/yr.

Why? Because that's my basis for figuring out what I am willing to spend on services, fees, etc.

Financial services tend to charge based on assets managed... so 1.5% on 500K is 7.5K. If there's an average 1% fund fee on top that's another 5K bringing the total to 12.5K.

If I look at 500K that's doesn't seem like that much... if I take the income view (20K) I'm giving over half my pay away for someone else to manage it. So that's a pretty big chunk.

Then I can ask myself what I get for that? If they can beat the market consistently by 50% maybe it's worth it. If they keep me from doing really stupid things maybe it's worth it. Personally I try to keep those numbers as low as possible.

I also include CPA, legal advice, insurance people, taxes, etc. Anyone who "helps" me manage my money is paid by that 20K... and what's left over after all those costs is what my job actually pays.

Then I look at what hurts my pay the most and try to get rid of it. Taxes are hard to get rid of, inflation is hard to control, stock returns I don't think I can change much. So that leaves fees and advice rates.

The good news is this forum chargers 0% for AUM and many members give equally good advice if not better . Since it's a bunch of retired people with little or nothing to do all day :P they can afford to be honest as well.

Keep digging... I'm sure you'll figure out what works for you best!

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Old 05-03-2016, 08:07 PM   #37
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petershk is making a good point. If you look at 2% mutual fund fees or 1.5% stock advice fees as a percentage of total capital, it may seem small. But if you look at it as a fraction of the 5-7% you earn on that capital each year, it becomes a large portion. Experience shows that FA's funds/stocks do not routinely beat the overall market. So if you can do your own investing and match the market, you are better off by 1.5-2% per year. If you can't invest on your own, or you are afraid that you will panic at the wrong time, then by all means engage a FA, but get one who does not have a conflict of interest in managing your money (selling their own products or receiving commission). And certainly you can get good steady advice for much less than 1.5%. You might try Schwab or Fidelity if you are uncomfortable with Vanguard. I have accounts and am happy with all three of these.
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Old 05-03-2016, 09:28 PM   #38
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I didn't read the whole thread, but Ameriprise is fleecing you. Conning you. Get smart on investing basics and pull out your money. Do it this month.

This forum harshly convinced me to do exactly this almost two years ago and I burned a relationship with an old family friend doing so. I'm very grateful to this forum for this. Friends shouldn't con and fleece their clients.
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Old 05-04-2016, 07:01 AM   #39
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My IRA ($75k)= RVS RAVA 4 SELECT Q
Wife 403b ($80k)= RVS RAVA 4 SELECT Q
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Originally Posted by krldrummerboy View Post
I am a little worried about the annuity, too. I have been communicating with some others outside of this forum. The annuity is from a roll-over from my previous job. This was purchased about 8 years ago. I believe my spouse has the same one for her current 403B which we contribute to every month.

I have heard that this is not normal and frowned upon by some investors. Can you please clarify why?
Variable annuities are already tax-advantaged so there is no additional savings from having them within tax-advantaged accounts.

Quote:
Those investing in a variable annuity through a tax-advantaged retirement plan will get no additional tax advantage from the variable annuity. Under these circumstances, consider buying a variable annuity only if it makes sense because of the annuity’s other features, such as lifetime income payments and death protection.
Source: http://www.diversify.com/diversify-e...able-annuities

The prospectus is below. Notice the number of times "fee" and "expense" are mentioned.

RiverSource Retirement Advisor Variable Annuity 4 SELECT Q (qualified account):
http://financialprofessional.riverso...e/pdf/6503.PDF
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Old 05-04-2016, 01:32 PM   #40
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I stopped counting the word "FEE" after page 5. I got to 89 times. Didn;t count "EXPENSE". I may throw up
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