53 & 54yo DINKs leaving Megacorp end of year RE - Are we also FI?

[Diver]

Me: 54yo left MegaCorp in June this year after the latest round of layoffs, but am being paid severance through year end. Prior plan was to ER next year, so close enough.

DH: 53yo plans to leave MegaCorp job at year end. The contract he was working on was cancelled, and he is mentally/emotionally "done" with the rat race, especially since I am now ER. He will also be paid through year end. He can play hooky on the "bench" for the rest of this year, as he is requesting no reassignment.

No kids. House is on the market for $500k (no mortgage). We have decluttered, downsized and given away what feels like tons of "stuff" over the summer. It was like shedding a ball and chain with each carload to Goodwill.

Expenses: After maxing out 401k, ESOP, HSA and taxes, etc., we netted about $10k/mo. We threw $4.5k a month at the mortgage until it was paid off in mid 2013, and then saved about that same amount afterwards to shore up our cash reserves. We have been living on about $5.5 net/mo. for a few years.

Investments: We currently have $1,360,000 in 401ks, IRAs, savings and bonds. The vast majority is in 401ks and IRAs, which are all being consolidated into our IRAs at Vanguard. Investment mix is about 60/30/10 right now, and will be about 60/40 in Wellington after we get everything consolidated at Vanguard.

Our plan for years has been to retire early and travel the world (on a budget), and then decide when we are done (in however many years) where to settle down. No house or house expenses until then. We are good with budget travel so long as our room and private bath is clean, and a/c in the tropics. Billy and Akaisha have been our heroes for years, if that helps. I have been reading this forum for a long time and we have been using all of the calculators as well (FIRE, RIP, Financial Engines, plus DH's custom spreadsheet). They all indicate we are good to go now at $6k/month counting taking SS at 62 ($1,600/mo and $1,700/mo), and small pension at 65 ($15k/yr). We plan to try for a lower budget, but $6k would be our top end.

Here is our current financial plan, and we would appreciate any opinions and advice from the wise and experienced FIRE community.

We plan to add about $50k of house money to our $60k in online savings now earning 1% (1.5 yr max budget in cash) so that we do not panic if the markets go nuts. The rest of the house money will be in Wellesley and will continue to backfill the online savings as we use it every quarter. This generates very low income for a few years (only the online savings interest and Wellesley income as taxable income). This should result in little or no income tax and generous ACA subsidy. This will allow us to leave our retirement amounts to grow tax free until I am over 591/2 and can draw from them without penalty, so no need for a 72t plan. We plan to consolidate all of our retirement accounts in Wellington as a "set and forget" plan and let it ride until I am about 60. Any other opinions on that choice? We are seeking simplicity.

Insurance: We plan to establish residency in a no income tax state that has expanded Obamacare before we travel. We will buy international travel insurance while we are traveling.

SS: We do plan to take SS at 62 for a variety of reasons, and realize that we will likely be paying taxes on it as we will be drawing from our IRAs by then.

The current plan is to set aside our bonds (about $55k) for a downpayment on another house in the no tax state once we settle back down after traveling (no house or house expenses until then). We will rent or do long term stay suites when we come back, or stay with family. One thought we have now is to take out a mortgage if rates are still fairly reasonable when we are ready to buy again rather than taking out from our IRAs and incurring a big tax bill that year. We would probably be happy in a $250k or so house in today's dollars, so about $200k mortgage after our downpayment. Any thoughts on this? I know, it sounds kinda nuts to work so hard paying off our house only to sell it and then get a mortgage later on our retirement house. We decided to pay off our house asap during the horrible recession when we were very concerned one of us would lose our jobs, and it did give us great comfort. In retirement, we know the money will be there to pay it off in our retirement accounts, but we think we might be better to let it ride and keep compounding. Of course, that equation changes if mortgage rates skyrocket to something crazy.

Your advice and opinions are most welcome! Thanks so much to all of the "regulars" for years of sharing great knowledge, advice and inspiration! I think we will be in the Class of 2016! I still can't quite believe it. I have not missed work one day, and DH was ready about a year ago! SO excited we are joining the FIRE club, but will be even more excited if you think we are indeed FI to complete our RE

 

[bingybear]

Just a few questions... what have you budgeted in for health/dental care (including insurance)? Note many individual HI policies only have coverage in your home state and only cover emergency care elsewhere.
What do you expect your taxable income will be the time frames (now to 62, 62 until 70.5, and after 70.5 (rmd time))?
You talk about setting up residency in a no income tax state, but having no housing expenses... is this realistic? I just don't know about this. I would wonder if a minimal footprint might be required.
If the calculators say it is good... the question becomes ... did you make a wrong assumption. Thus the questions.
When I did my planning, near term I need to be local most of the time to help with an aging parent... thus the state is defined and we are not moving for a while.
Health care.. we assume paying insurance and max out of pocket every year... somewhat conservative assumptions.
My only advice is check your assumptions.

 

[seabourne]

Given your expectation of minimal income in the years from 55 to 59.5, and expecting to be paying income taxes when you begin SS at 62, you should probably look into converting portions of your IRA into RothIRA up to a chosen income tax bracket from next year through age 62 to minimize the overall income taxes owed on the pre-tax money. The post-tax money from the house sale should mean that you'll have the means on hand to deal with the taxes owed without a liquidity crisis.

 

[Senator]

Now is the time to leave. If you had the choice, I may recommend OMY, to solidify a bit more your finances.

Do not forget you are very likely to be able to collect unemployment, after your severance ends. Count that as any other subsidy you may qualify for, similar to ACA subsidies or SS. You paid into the fund, via your employer, and now it is time to collect.

If you continue your current spending, you need ~$66K ($5.5K a month) after taxes to live on. That is ~1.7M in investments if you use a 4% withdrawal, not counting any taxes. You do not have that much, and 4% may be obsolete. Maybe after the house sells, it will be closer, but not quite.

Be careful what you spend, you should spend less going forward.

Good luck in your retirement!

 

[bingybear]

Given your expectation of minimal income in the years from 55 to 59.5, and expecting to be paying income taxes when you begin SS at 62, you should probably look into converting portions of your IRA into RothIRA up to a chosen income tax bracket from next year through age 62 to minimize the overall income taxes owed on the pre-tax money. The post-tax money from the house sale should mean that you'll have the means on hand to deal with the taxes owed without a liquidity crisis.

Part of the reason I asked about their expected tax rates in the 3 time frames was just that. They are focused on getting a great ACA subsidy, but the Roth conversions will decrease the ACA subsidy. Estimating the taxable income in the 3 phases (3 since they are looking at taking SS before RMDs) may provide a better view of the global effects of their decisions.

I see it as a subsidy today verse removing some amount from my top marginal rate at RMD time and paying lower marginal tax rates today. The risks.. one estimates wrong, one does not live to RMD time, taxes change over the years (in this case... becoming lower at RMD time would be worse from the rollover calculation -- I don't expect that), etc. For me, I'm using cobra this year and most of next and rolling to the top of the 15% bracket. After that I will re-evaluate.
hopefully the OP will (or already has) evaluated this.

 

[Fermion]

You are fine at $6K a month.

In just 8 or 9 years it will only be $3K a month (after SS kicks in)

$1,400,000 can spit out $36K a year with a 2.6% SWR

Maybe a bit higher SWR if you must pay taxes.

When the small pension kicks in, your SWR will be under 2%.

I am not even counting the value of your $500,000 paid off house if you sell it and rent or downsize.

Retire now.

 

[Bestwifeever]

Are you nervous at all about having all of your assets in Wellesley? This list of different portfolios includes mostly index funds but includes a few others, discussing Wellesley down at Portfolio 123 and 124 (this article was interesting to me because it focuses on set-it-and-forget-it portfolios that would work for anyone, not just for the people in the title): 150 Portfolios Better Than Yours | The White Coat Investor - Investing And Personal Finance Information For Physicians, Dentists, Residents, Students, And Other Highly-Educated Busy Professionals

We have 40 percent in Wellesley and I think it's a little too much so may move a little into something else.

But nice job, you sound like you are set to move into the next adventure in your lfe.

 

[pb4uski]

The OP said Wellington, not Wellesley. Why would anyone be nervous about having everything in Wellesley? or Wellington? Especially compared to 3 or 4 index funds. If it we're not for tax efficiency I would put everything in Wellington.

 

[Bestwifeever]

I apologize, I misinterpreted--read "the rest of the house money" wrong, as meaning "all of our money." Wellington and Wellesley are both managed funds I believe vs index funds or funds of funds, so just wondered if people are comfortable with all of their $$ in a single managed fund. Obviously you would be.

 

[pb4uski]

Just curious, why would you be nervous about having all you money in a high quality, low-cost managed fund with a great track record?

 

[Bestwifeever]

Past performance no guarantee, eggs in one basket, etc.; my DD can't even believe we have everything at one place--she thinks that is a risk. Sorry, didn't mean to hijack thread.

 

[hnzw_rui]

Wellington:
# of bonds: 810 (20% US gov't)
# of stocks: 94

Wellesley:
# of bonds: 821 (21% US gov't)
# of stocks: 58

I dunno, I think that's probably sufficient diversification. VTSMX has thousands of stocks but I wonder how many of those are stocks of crappy companies?

 

[VFK57]

Welcome to the Forum. Living on $6K per month is quite possible yet in some states it will be tight while other states are more than enough (depends on your expenses). If you like travel and have no family to take care of (elderly parents, grandkids) then another possibility is to travel around the world, staying mostly in much more affordable countries. I red many posts from people who stay in Costa Rica, Ecuador, Panama, Mexico, Thailand, Philippines etc. Nice neighborhood apartment, utilities, medical/dental insurance, food, transportation, entertainment and all other expenses are under $3K per month. When you are OK for SS then some expats are coming back home.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

You are probably FI depending on your actual expenses. We looked at the Consumer Expenditure Report a few years back and realized we were FI if we bought our spending levels down:

http://www.bls.gov/cex/2011/Standard/sage.pdf

We decided we'd rather spend less per year than have to work full time and it has been great. We have a lot of free time now for price shopping, optimizing expenses, bargain hunting and more DIY so it has been easy to live on less than we used to, plus we have some hobby income that helps with the budget, too.

 

[growing_older]

Insurance: We plan to establish residency in a no income tax state that has expanded Obamacare before we travel. We will buy international travel insurance while we are traveling.

Would be very interested to know what state(s) you choose and why. Your plan sounds like a dream. Congratulations.

 

[Diver]

Wow THANK YOU all for the thoughtful responses and good questions. It really helps to have experienced people who have achieved FIRE to do a sanity check. We have discussed our ER and nomad travel plans in general with friends and family for years, but not the specifics that I have disclosed here. We mainly discuss where we should travel.

To answer a few questions:

Bingybear:
Great questions and food for thought. We expect little med expenses in US to start with (just subsidized ACA premium or Medicaid) with our main expenses international travel insurance and med/dental expenses overseas in (hopefully) low cost countries. We don't plan to use Medicaid coverage. If we end up back here due to a health event, we will start converting to Roth to raise income and get a low cost plan (or when we start taking IRA distributions). We feel like we have enough discretionary $ in our budget to adjust as need be, but we will think carefully about all of this in light of the comments here about not being shortsighted about an ACA subsidy now versus higher taxes down the road. Also, good point in us revisiting our assumptions.

We do plan to buy an unimproved lot (less than $5k) in no tax state. That will be the only real estate we will own, and we will go there after we sell the house, renting something there before we leave for extended travel, and turn in our licenses and get no tax state license, as well as register to vote there. I would like to build a small cabin on lot years from now as a residence or vacation spot, so it is our intention to return to this state, which along with the license or voters registration is all that is required for residency.

We do have somewhat elderly parents in 2 other states, but we also have siblings. If we must return for any length of time, we can always change residency and get Obamacare there. Right now we do not plan on returning except for a few weeks a year until we are done seeing a bit of the world. We think we should go now while everyone is in good health.

Seaborne:
I thought fleetingly about Roth conversion, but we thought it better to stretch out our savings and house money and 0 tax status as long as possible and let our IRAs grow for the next 6 years or so. Also, I am not sure what future tax rates will be, etc. I hate to pay tax now when I have no idea what the future holds and what the tax or other rules will be about Roth in the future. We will look at this at length, however, because we should leave no stone un-turned as we set our plans in motion. I appreciate your perspective.

Senator:
Thank you so much for the encouragement, and the caution/warning at the same time! We do hope our current $1,360,000 will be somewhat higher when we start tapping it in 6 years, leaving it untouched until then.

Fermion:
Thanks so much! You made me smile! We feel the same, and since we do plan to track our actuals in DH's spreadsheets and continue running the calculators quarterly, I think we can adjust as necessary.

Bestwifeever:
We are comfortable with Wellington for IRAs and Wellesley for house money. We are Vanguard fans and heard about these 2 funds from people on these boards as "set and forget funds" that have served people well, and when we looked into them more, we thought they would serve our purposes, too. I guess we feel the same as pb4uski and hnzw_rui, but welcome other perspectives. I think we are more likely to avoid trying to tweak things in market gyrations if we agree to set and forget in 2 funds now.

VFK57:
You read our minds! We do plan to travel to low cost but interesting (to us) countries. We want to start in Thailand, travel to Vietnam, Laos, Philippines, some South Pacific islands (may not be so low cost there) and when it is rainy season in southeast Asia, stay in Spain and Portugal and visit other European countries by train. Also, we would like to spend time in South and Central America. We would really like to see as much of the world that interests us while we are able (and more able to handle budget accommodations). It might last years, or it might not. Either way, we hope to stay for months at a time in low cost places and mix in some not so low cost countries occasionally. We like to scuba dive, so that will add a bit to the "budget" travel, but the prices for nice, clean guesthouses in Phuket walking distance to beaches and highly rated in TripAdvisor is amazing ($17-25/night), and renting a nice condo there for a few months is even lower.

Daylatedollarshort:
Thanks for the link. Same approach we are taking. I am confident that we can cut back where and when needed as we track actuals. We won't really have many fixed costs until we settle back down.

Growing_older:
We chose Washington state as I was born there, it is beautiful, and I do have some family there. We are buying a lot on an island in the Puget Sound that is served by ferry (yes, for under $5k), where I would love to have a small cabin one day. Too cold for DH, but he would be happy there in late spring, summer and early fall if he is near water. We will maintain a mailing address there as well. One of the mailing services that RVers and others use has added a street address in Seattle. They scan your mail (envelopes) and you can direct what you want them to do with it, including opening it and scanning the contents for you.

This IS our dream, and we have had it ever since I got Billy & Akaisha's CD many years ago and we started seriously planning and saving for this. Since then, we have read many other blogs of like minded people that seem to be very happy roaming nomads. If it turns out not to be for us, we plan to come home early and reset!

Thanks again, everyone!

 

[ivinsfan]

Re your health care plans, to my knowledge, ACA is one of few Govt programs that is currently considering only income, not total assets. I don't know if it's wise to pin all your planning on the law as it is today. You said ACA and Medicaid..I don't if your meant Medicare, but Medicaid guidelines for assets are pretty tight.

For example I live in a farming state and farm myself, crops prices are abysmal this year. MN Sure is running adds saying farmers remember you can qualify for ACA if your income went (if you farm your income went WAY down this year).

A 300 acre farm is worth at least a mil and a half.As the cost of ACA keeps rising, I forsee a hard look at adding an asset calculation to the mix. As a comparison look at how quickly the recent changes with implemented in the SS program. You actually are hurting yourself by selling your home because a home is generally offset in an asset calculation.

Only you can decide what to do, but I strongly suggest you have a Plan B that isn't low or no cost medical insurance for the rest of your life. Medicare Plan B payments with decent gap coverage cost from 250-300 a month per person at this time. If your numbers look tight to you now, health care could really be a game changer. It's easier to add money to your stash while you are working then be forced to re-enter the work force.

 

[Rothman]

Diver, congratulations on your planning and execution of the plan. You certainly are FI at the spending levels planed, like some have said its only spending more by choice or medical necessity that could derail you. I agree you must establish residency and have health care as next priorities. I would look at conversions in low/no income years given the years of growth ahead of you and likelihood of tax increases in your retirement years. Then enjoy your travel, best wishes.


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

 

[Diver]

Ivansfan:
Thank you for your thoughts and advice. You are right - we do need to plan and be prepared for a change in the ACA rules and Medicaid expansion. If assets are eventually counted and we are still traveling, we will buy the lowest cost (Bronze?) plan available, as we do not plan to be in the US to use it (probably only 4 wks/yr). We figure that we can swing adjustments in our budget by simply spending a bit more time in the low cost countries we are interested in visiting. We have accounted for the cost of international medical insurance and out of pocket medical while overseas, but it is a swag. When we get back and settle down again, we will probably get a Silver plan and manage our income stream to get a subsidy, if one is still available to us and it makes sense at the time.

We do have Medicare Part B in our plans, and we expect to get the same type of Medicare supplement policies our parents have which leave them only a small copay, and their choice of docs (no HMO), which is more expensive than the Advantage plans. Their medical costs are very fixed and predictable by paying higher supplement insurance premiums, and it has worked out well for them. My Dad was in the hospital for several weeks last year, and they owed zip. By Medicare time, we will have not only SS, but also our small pension of $15k/yr to help cover that.

Selling the house is financially advantageous for us to achieve our goals, including our travel dreams. We would rather not pay all of the expenses required to maintain our house when we are not using it and have no plans to return to our state. We are also not interested in being landlords with the attendant responsibilities. We really want to keep all options open and be light on our feet. It further allows us to let our IRAs grow while we use the house asset as an income stream (right pocket/left pocket).

Rothman:
Thank you so much for your comments. Based on your message and those of others in this thread, we are now seriously considering conversions in the low income years. We will be adding that variable to DH's spreadsheet, as well as a variable for not doing a conversion, but doing a 72t before 591/2 to stretch out our house money in order to lower our taxes longer.

Of course, tax brackets and 0 cap gains tax for those in the 15% bracket and even Roth implications could all change in 2017 and later. Roths may never be "taxed", but maybe they will count in later years to tax more of SS or something. Hard to believe they will never be targeted somehow, just like it is hard to believe that the ACA subsidy formulas will never count assets. We will have to roll with the punches and be flexible for sure. You are all helping us to model and consider more scenarios and options to manage taxes for the longer term. For sure we will be carefully reevaluating every quarter as we go. None of our plans are set in stone, and we will be eligible for free CFP consultations through Vanguard based on our combined balances as we proceed. Another note is that we do not need to leave any inheritance since we have no kids. That may change some of our assumptions as compared to those who are concerned with leaving a financial legacy.

Thanks again to everyone for their comments and advice. We very much appreciate it!

 

[NgineER]

Welcome to the forum!
I did not see it brought up as I glanced through the previous posts, but I would not bank on being able to get a mortgage AFTER you are retired as you have no steady income. So your assumptions about $50,000 down payment might not hold true.

Most recommendations I have seen say that you should get to your house before retiring if you want that mortgage.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

The two credit unions we belong to both will consider financial assets, not just income for retiree mortgages. We refinanced our current mortgage when rates dropped after we stopped working full time and at one time even pre-qualified for an investment property, though we didn't end up buying one.

One CU just looked at financial assets and the other CU wanted to see 3 months of transfers from a savings to checking account they could count as "monthly income".

 

[Diver]

Thanks, molof. As I understand it, in 2011, Freddie Mac changed the rules to allow lenders to use retirement accounts to qualify seniors and others for low-rate, conforming conventional mortgages (there are specific rules and a formula in the links below). I just read about it this year and was surprised. It works for refis as well. They consider about 70% of retirement account balances and most banks require 30% downpayment. They also say the rules have always allowed SS, interest and dividends. It changed our plan on how to pay for our next house. Before, our plan was to take a tax hit after 591/2 and take some money from our IRA to add to our bonds.

Does anyone on the board know of someone who has qualified for a mortgage under these rules?

Here are some links with the specifics:
Using Financial Assets to Qualify for a New Mortgage - Freddie Mac
Use Your Nest Egg to Qualify for a Mortgage-Kiplinger
How to Use Your Nest Egg to Qualify for a Mortgage - DailyFinance

 

[Diver]

Thanks, daylatedollarshort! I just posted about a 2011 change in the rules at FreddieMac that allowed lenders to count retirement account assets to qualify for conventional mortgages. I included links to some articles explaining in more detail, one from FreddieMac. I think the links triggered a review by the Mods, but hopefully it will post here soon for anyone else that finds it useful. I just found about about it this year myself and was surprised. Great to hear from someone who actually went through the process and qualified using their retirement assets under what I assume were these rule changes for lenders.

 

[FreeBear]

Congrats Diver on your ER and impending DH's ER!

Seems like you've spent a fair amount of time on the financial side and received extensive comments, so I don't have much to add. Just playing devil's advocate, what is the lifestyle backup plan if you or DH decided that extensive overseas living and travel is not for you? If you need a real home base in the US (say $250K house for half the year) AND still want to travel for a few months, it could get expensive.

Have you guys both spent tons of time overseas in the past or is this an entirely new lifestyle you would like to check out? Sorry, you've already addressed this somewhere...

I admire you guys and your zest for travel. I spent a fair amount of time on the Pacific Rim on business. Of course, business travel is a different animal... Still, we've become homebodies since ER this year. We are very active outdoors, but mainly locally.

You are both wise to get out of the rat race while still young enough to be active. It's great you have each other to travel with. Happy trails!

FB

 

[omni550]

Thanks, molof. As I understand it, in 2011, Freddie Mac changed the rules to allow lenders to use retirement accounts to qualify seniors and others for low-rate, conforming conventional mortgages (there are specific rules and a formula in the links below). I just read about it this year and was surprised. It works for refis as well. They consider about 70% of retirement account balances and most banks require 30% downpayment. They also say the rules have always allowed SS, interest and dividends. It changed our plan on how to pay for our next house. Before, our plan was to take a tax hit after 591/2 and take some money from our IRA to add to our bonds.

Does anyone on the board know of someone who has qualified for a mortgage under these rules?

Diver,

I'm not familiar with the Freddie Mac^^ ruling.

I retired 8+ years ago and own my primary residence free & clear. In March this year, I purchased a second home (a condo worth approximately the same as my primary residence) in Florida. I put 30% down and got a mortgage for the balance. My retirement assets are what underwriting reviewed prior to approving the loan (as I receive a very small pension).

omni