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Old 11-11-2007, 12:50 PM   #21
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By the time I finished writing the very long post, CFB summarized it with 2 bullet points.
Such things dont happen very often
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Old 11-11-2007, 12:53 PM   #22
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Just in interest of looking at all angles, here, I am looking at the financial pros of splitting up. It is possible that you may actually end up financially better off if you split now. Retire from megacorp now, for your health, and do the part time job thing. Just do it. If this plays out in divorce, then when alimony is figured, you will have the lower earnings to calculate it. She will get half your pension and half the assets. The thing is, though, she will end up supporting herself and 3 people out of her half, while you will only have to support one person.

You never mentioned the equity in your house, but I will assume there is some there.

You will have 19,000 in pensions left, plus a good SS payment(she can't take any of that away from you). That may add up to 37,000 in retirement payments, while your expenses have been very drastically reduced. Then 4% of your half-mil is 20,000/yr. Can you live stress-free off of 57,000/yr less the alimony?
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Old 11-11-2007, 12:54 PM   #23
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Came back to this and saw that chinaco had the recommendation that fit best with what I was already thinking, which is: program a down-sizing of the house. Whether this is 6 mo. out or 24 mo. out, just get your ducks in a row, pick a deadline, and do it. I think if the space for all of them is there now.. it's too much of a temptation for them and for your wife. A one-bedroom bungalow is in your future. Say to the kids that, IF you successfully downsize, you can fund or partially fund a transition (again, 6 mo.?) for them into their own rentals, whether collective or not. Pick a number and make it known.

They need to realize the money comes from somewhere (you!) and is not infinite. But you may be rash in breaking away immediately -- for financial as well as emotional reasons-- so I would think twice before cutting off your nose to spite your face. It seems like some compromise needs to be in order unless you really do just want to bail on all of them, which (as others with more experience than me can attest to and have) is going to be a serious blow to the overall financial picture.

I wish you all the best in attempting to resolve this, raygun99!

Also (IMO) you shouldn't be charging rent to one kid that you don't charge to another. You can also gift tax-free up to $12k/year to each, but again, I think whatever payments or "charges" should be equal.

--
wow igsoy took the other route.. instead of drastically reducing the housing supply, suggesting a drastic red'n. of the $ supply! A 'good' scheme if your wife truly cannot be pried away from the kids or vice versa...

I guess the rub of it is.. if it gets down to an ultimatum of your leaving/downsizing.. and she stays and kicks the kids out.. will this come back to haunt you? Will your wife be content or will you have endless recriminations for your 'hard-hearted' approach? You'll have 'saved' the relationship only superficially.. this needs to be explored on her end.
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Old 11-11-2007, 01:45 PM   #24
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How did those kids get back in the house? I am assuming they were out and came back but someone had to say ok? Frankly, IMO the kids are the #1 problem. However, IMO there are other problems. You really need to get some sit down time with DW and all of the kids and a third party (maybe a professional counselor and/or if you and DW have a church affiliation, maybe a valued church member). You need to spell it out to everyone very similar in the way you have stated it. It appears these kids are healthy and able to work and who BTW has the responsibility for the two kids from the separated one and where is the Child Support coming from? They should be out there on their own - can't they get one apartment for the three of them if money is their problem? It is not any of our business regarding the little ones but they need to be considered too.
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Old 11-11-2007, 01:47 PM   #25
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Okay I am going to be the lone wolf here and say that you need to change your perspective.

Work it out with your wife. Try to get her to see that the kids need to be prodded out, but if not, then I think you should eat **** and like it. They are, after all, your kids, not someone else's. Whether you like them or not, they came from you.
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Old 11-11-2007, 03:11 PM   #26
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Okay I am going to be the lone wolf here and say that you need to change your perspective.

Work it out with your wife. Try to get her to see that the kids need to be prodded out, but if not, then I think you should eat **** and like it. They are, after all, your kids, not someone else's. Whether you like them or not, they came from you.
That's certainly a possible result of the counseling that many of us have suggested. I'll just say that all parties should go in with an open mind.
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Old 11-11-2007, 03:25 PM   #27
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We never had any kids, so I really can't advise on that situation, but I will share a personal philosophy that has kept me sane despite having a fairly dysfunctional family -- I am not required to tolerate bad behavior from someone just because they are related to me. If I wouldn't take it from a stranger, I won't take it from a relative.
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Old 11-11-2007, 03:31 PM   #28
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I think counseling will be very helpful to you and your wife. Gives you space to be open with each other and some tools to use.

I'd also suggest figuring out your financial plan (maybe you have already) without the extra expense of your three children. Then ask your three children to figure out among themselves how they will pick up the rest while they are there.
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Old 11-11-2007, 08:33 PM   #29
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Even if she doesn't want to go to marriage counseling, you should go on your own. Weekly at least. It will help you figure out the next steps (with support) and how you can extricate yourself from supporting your adult children while communicating in a way that will get your wife to see your side.

Keep looking until you find a counselor who is actually helping.

Find some books to read on topics like Rescue Your Relationship.
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Old 11-11-2007, 08:58 PM   #30
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Consider this question. If you were not legally entangled with your wife, if you and she had separate ways of making do, would you struggle with this?

If not, at least the issue is clear. How can I extricate myself with some money and with a clear conscience?

A lot of time and money can be thrown down a rathole trying to rescue something that would be better for both sides if you could just hit the delete button.

As for the kids, rent a copy of the African Queen. Watch Humphrey Bogart and Katherine Hepburn get into the river to push their grounded boat. Then watch them get out and try to pick the leeches off their bodies. Hard to get free of those buggers!

Ha
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Old 11-11-2007, 09:17 PM   #31
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[quote=haha;577296
As for the kids, rent a copy of the African Queen. Watch Humphrey Bogart and Katherine Hepburn get into the river to push their grounded boat. Then watch them get out and try to pick the leeches off their bodies. Hard to get free of those buggers!

Ha[/quote]


Oh man are you so right on that point!
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Old 11-11-2007, 09:38 PM   #32
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When I split with #1, many of my friends said they would like to do the same but could not afford it. I said that another 40 years was not about money but about enjoying life.

After 12 years with my new spouse, we are comfortable in every way. In absolute net worth, we may have less but we enjoy what we have much more. No regrets whatsoever. At separation, most people focus on the downside.

What about the upside?
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Old 11-11-2007, 09:44 PM   #33
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Cheaper to keep her? Nah. On the one hand you leave and it cost you bucks. On the other you stay and it cost your sanity. Either way this is going to cost you something. Which do you value more? Think this through, I mean really think it through and know what you want before you talk to your wife. This situation did not occur over night. It took 33 years to get like this so spending a little time on this is not out of the question. There is no quick answer for a problem 33 years in the making and you should do your home work when deciding what to do with the next 33. That is what we are talking about here.

Your kids are young and have more time to bumble through life than you do. They will and that is their problem. Your wife is enabling their behavior. If she wants to spend the next 33 years doing that then fine that is on her. What we are talking about is what you want. What do you want to move towards, really? When you know that then ask yourself, What are you willing to do, what are you willing to pay to get it? When you know this you can talk to your wife.
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Old 11-11-2007, 09:51 PM   #34
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Consider this question. If you were not legally entangled with your wife, if you and she had separate ways of making do, would you struggle with this?

If not, at least the issue is clear. How can I extricate myself with some money and with a clear conscience?

A lot of time and money can be thrown down a rathole trying to rescue something that would be better for both sides if you could just hit the delete button.

As for the kids, rent a copy of the African Queen. Watch Humphrey Bogart and Katherine Hepburn get into the river to push their grounded boat. Then watch them get out and try to pick the leeches off their bodies. Hard to get free of those buggers!

Ha
True that. Just think, once you get rid of one set the children of the leaches come to take up residence. I am watching some one go through that now. It ain't pretty being a senior citizen trying to deal with the child (her grandson) of a addicted person (her son). Just think of all of the aches and pains of being elderly and on top of that you have two people with emotional problems to deal with. Never a moment peace which is kind of what you want when you are in your late 70's.
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Old 11-11-2007, 10:09 PM   #35
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I know they are family BUT remeber they are adults and its time for the adults to grow up and take on theresponsibility of the children they brought into the world. They would not be living in my house again. Visit for the holidays sure, then like fish after 3 days they all start to smell bad. Must throw thenm out at that point.
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Old 11-11-2007, 10:19 PM   #36
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It sounds like you love your wife and want to continue on with her - make sure you make that clear to her.

However, given the givens it sounds quite complicated and emotionally draining - but staying OR leaving will continue to be emotionally draining...I don't see how it wouldn't - you aren't divorcing the kids?

Not sure what help I can offer aside from what others have suggested - but i sense some deeply ingrained emotional/behavioral habits contributing to this whole situation that will remain even after you make any decisions - things I'm talking about are: Wife's expections, perceptions of her role and your role in the family, Kids' perceptions of you as a father and their expectations, You're role in this family as provider (but perhaps absent/bitter/ resentful in others?).

Divorce will change few of the above.

Try taking time to figure out how to get yourself in a good emotional state. Read some books (try Anger, by Thich Naht Hanh, it's made for situations like these)...give yourself some time. If you have to move out to get some breathing space, then do it. But if you jump into any decisions before getting your mental crap together, it's going to only get worse. To do something that bold you have to have a clear head/heart.

People can tell you to get your kids out, do this or do that - but sometimes these things happen because you and/or your wife weren't able to say/do those things when they were 3, 12 or 22...so i'm just wondering what would enable you to be bold enough to do so now? And the resistance you will get will be much more stunning than a 3 yr old's tantrum. Not saying i disagree with the advice, but wanted to throw some grains of reality salt in it.
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Old 11-11-2007, 10:59 PM   #37
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Time for my two cents.

There is nothing wrong with sitting down with each of the kids in private. Tell them about your stress at work and your needs, and that the current situation is taking a toll on your health. Mom may be communicating 'no problem' and they may not be aware of its impact on you. Ask each in turn for their independent living plan.

It is imperative that the two of you have a long discussion about each of your needs. She may be reluctant to let your children set sail in rough water, so to speak. You need to reclaim your space.

The kids need to set sail, perhaps she would agree that each of them present a plan for a place of their own within a year. They need to put it in writing. The two of you need to tell them that at the end of one year the house will be prepared to sell as you are down sizing. In the interim they must pay bed and board. You can save this money in an account for them so that they have what they need to get a place of their own. During this time create a peaceful space to call your own (over the garage, in the garage, in a travel trailer parked in the drive way.. wherever) and stay there. That behavior will communicate very effectively that a full house doesn't work for you, there is no need to discuss it further.

The other option would be to rent a house for a year for them to share and tell them that is where they can live, they can't stay in the family home any longer. They must pay for utilities and take care of the yard. Remind them that if they don't do that the home owner will kick them out and coming back home is not an option as the two of you are down sizing. I assure you that a full house such as you have now is not amenable to sale.

The problem with you and your wife staying in your current home is that the family sees it as 'every-bodies' home. You need a home that is for the two of you.
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Old 11-12-2007, 01:52 AM   #38
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Another vote here for counseling and for discussing all this with your wife/kids. If you're not sure what you want or where your boundaries are with all this, it may be better to get the conversations started anyway. Once you share your views (even if those views are "I don't know what the hell I want"), it can open up new possibilities you hadn't thought of, or make it clear that some options just aren't on the table.

Also agree with spncity that if the first counselor you try doesn't seem helpful, keep looking! Finding one that meshes well with both persons involved can make a big difference - neither of you should feel like the counselor is "siding" more with the other person. If you feel that a counselor isn't working out, sometimes they can refer you to someone they think might be more compatible with you.

Hope it works out for you and your family!
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Old 11-12-2007, 03:21 AM   #39
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If the only issue with DW is about spending and ER... I would not chuck in the marriage. If things are good otherwise, you should be able to work through that issue.

If your DW is reasonable... you should be able to work it out. You also need to inspect your behavior. I do not know the details... but if you just tossed out this idea that is life changing and expect her to just automatically be receptive... think again. Life changes require people to warm up to the idea. Give it some time. Be patient.

The first thing to go would be the kids. Put them on a timeline and set the expectation now. Don't threaten them... coach them. But you need to set the expectation. It will be a touchy subject. You will need to employ the old tactic... Mom and Pop are getting old and need to prepare for retirement and slowing down.

One final note: before the boards sympathy send you into a frenzy and get a divorce... Whatever is occurring is probably as much your fault as is is hers. You enabled it all these years.
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Old 11-12-2007, 08:38 AM   #40
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Seek counseling - it may be the best decision the two of you have ever made.

Your wife is not your enemy.

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