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Old 12-05-2007, 07:04 AM   #81
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Raygun, sticking with the one you love might be a better option than going it alone,speaking from experience the bachelor life can turn into just a different kind of hell.
Motivating those kids to get independent should be your main priority
Here's some Guy humor to put things in perspective http://funny2.com/mensrules.htm
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Old 12-05-2007, 01:50 PM   #82
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Raygun, sticking with the one you love might be a better option than going it alone,speaking from experience the bachelor life can turn into just a different kind of hell.
Motivating those kids to get independent should be your main priority
Here's some Guy humor to put things in perspective http://funny2.com/mensrules.htm
Something I find very interesting about this thread and the dominant tenor of advice given-"Hang in there", "it is probably your fault", "you should cater to her more", and just above, "stay, your life will suck alone".

Does anyone think this is the advice that would be given to a woman who presented the same story as Raygun?

Me neither.

Ha
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Old 12-05-2007, 02:55 PM   #83
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Next no matter what, I am going to start pushing these kids MY way with her support or not.
Start by charging MARKET room and board ... this will have them looking for thier own "bigger" space and teach to budget month-to-month. Explain that the rent will be DCA into a retirement fund for you AND DW. This will ease the "blow".

FWIW, my folks did the same ~25 years ago (I was eighteen ... I moved out within a couple months).
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Old 12-05-2007, 07:42 PM   #84
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Something I find very interesting about this thread and the dominant tenor of advice given-"Hang in there", "it is probably your fault", "you should cater to her more", and just above, "stay, your life will suck alone".

Does anyone think this is the advice that would be given to a woman who presented the same story as Raygun?

Me neither.

Ha
So we can assume that your solution is for him to get the hell outta Dodge?

And i dont think that it is Raygun's fault its just his choice,also i got the impression that he really liked his wife but thought it too much with the kids living at home.
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Old 12-05-2007, 08:36 PM   #85
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So we can assume that your solution is for him to get the hell outta Dodge?
I don't indulge myself in prescribing solutions for other people. I just was struck by the interesting aspect that I pointed out above.

I don't care if Raygun finds his wife's sister and marries her too. It is his life.

But if you were to poll the divorced people on this board, I think you might find that more than a few would say that their post-divorce lives definitely do not suck.

The never-married also seem to be fairly content.

Ha
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Old 12-05-2007, 09:00 PM   #86
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So I guess we currently married folks are roundly screwed...

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Old 12-05-2007, 09:36 PM   #87
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So I guess we currently married folks are roundly screwed...

I hope! That is what you are paying for.

Ha
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Old 12-06-2007, 02:19 AM   #88
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Idle thought -- what if you just up and quit?

Yes, you might try counseling first, but if that doesn't work, what would it be like to announce that you were going to quit next year and then just do it?

No big upheaval, no moving yourself out and divorcing -- you just quit. Slavery IS illegal, after all -- what can anyone do to you?

As long as the money spigot is still running nobody has any incentive to do anything differently. Once it's turned off (and everyone had plenty of warning that it will be) your wife might come to realize that what she gives to the kids comes out of HER share of the now-finite pie.

You can always divorce her later, or vice versa, if nothing changes.

Apart from counseling with the wife, I don't see any point in trying to "explain" your situation to the kids. Everyone knows the situation. The hardest part of this is facing the fact that the three healthy, adult children that you raised, schooled, and are still supporting have weighed their interests against your needs, and have selfishly put themselves first.

How old will you be before you do the same?
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Old 12-06-2007, 08:30 AM   #89
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Second what Caroline said!
When your family no longer cares about your happiness and well being you have to take more care for yourself. Hopefully they will come around in time.
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Old 12-06-2007, 10:56 AM   #90
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Pretty good line of thinking. Get yourself a fishing hat full of lures, some cheap beer, get about 5 days worth of facial hair growth going and a whole rack of tank top tee shirts, eat a lot of beans, hang around the house and make a nuisance of yourself.

Might just clear the place out without a single shot being fired...
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Old 12-06-2007, 10:31 PM   #91
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But if you were to poll the divorced people on this board, I think you might find that more than a few would say that their post-divorce lives definitely do not suck.
Perhaps us long-time marrieds are advocating sticking it out due to fear or envy. Or perhaps some of the divorcÚs are rationalizing the sunk costs of a decision that's not easily changed.

Long-term friends of ours divorced over issues that, in retrospect, should've been addressed when they were dating. Heck, most of his should've been addressed when he returned from his deployments to Yankee Station. She thinks that their divorce is the best thing that ever happened to her, and she's absolutely right. He thinks that their divorce is the worst thing that ever happened to him, and he's also absolutely right.

But I suspect that most married people who are contemplating divorce have an overly optimistic view of the grass on the other side of the fence, and it certainly helps them avoid making a commitment to fixing whatever issues got them to the brink of divorce. Most of the advice I've seen here has been along the lines of "try to fix your problems before you try running away from them".

When you're suffering in a rocky marriage, it's hard to imagine that a divorced life could be any worse. For a good example of that thinking there's always Diane Medved's "The Case Against Divorce".
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:40 PM   #92
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I hope I am a minority on this board among post-divorced people. I hope the rest of you are having a great time. But as a matter of fact, my life does suck. I would have done A LOT to stay married, probably to my own detriment. I loved my husband, despite all his flaws.

Now my family is fractured. My grown kids have to make uncomfortable decisions about which parent to visit for which holidays. They have to deal with a stepmom they don't like. My relationship with them has changed as well, although they don't seem to be holding any anger about the situation. But they are sad about it, and I am sad for what was lost.

I visited Tanzania this summer and had a chance to meet some Maasai villagers. I asked one of the wives if she wished they had divorce like we Americans do. She explained that if the husband and wife don't like each other any more, they separate and the wife keeps her house in the village. She also keeps her social connections, her children, her family (both sides) her work, her livelihood. She also is free to have lovers.

After divorce in our country in-laws disappear from your life, friends of the couple choose sides. You lose much more than a spouse. You lose family and friends. Grandparents often lose touch with their grandchildren. Financially, many women are left destitute especially if they have been in the marriage a long time. Frankly, the whole deal is brutal. But, in case anyone thinks I'm against divorce because I got a raw deal financially, that's not true at all. I came out of it very well off.
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Old 12-07-2007, 01:30 AM   #93
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Perhaps us long-time marrieds are advocating sticking it out due to fear or envy. Or perhaps some of the divorcÚs are rationalizing the sunk costs of a decision that's not easily changed.
<SNIP>
When you're suffering in a rocky marriage, it's hard to imagine that a divorced life could be any worse. For a good example of that thinking there's always Diane Medved's "The Case Against Divorce".
Since I am the one who said, "...does not suck", I suppose I should reply. It seems to have created some defensiveness, which seems odd to me. I certainly never said or would be stupid enough or unobservant enough of life to think that some, many, or all married people are secretly unhappy. Especially not the married people on this board who to me seem to be the most contented married people I have ever known or have ever heard of.

The logicians on the board may be able to explain to the rest of us that to say that divorced people are OK with being divorced does not imply that married people are not OK with being married.

As I believe I have said before, divorce is not an AND function. EITHER the husband OR the wife can see to it that the couple is divorced. When that happens, you do your best. And sometimes you find that even after a painful rupture there are things to be thankful for. Things that you no longer have to put up with. Unhappy things that you no longer have to hear. Constraints on your autonomy or emotional freedom that may have grown onerous.

And sometimes you find that other people don't see you as blackly as your ex, and that can be mind expanding.

Obviously it is easier to have the same person anchoring your life, the same mutual friends, and the familiar Mom and Dad role with your kids. But for a lot of divorced people those things had gotten pretty bad anyway, and maybe can be set up better as individuals.

I also have noticed over the years that many divorced men and women on this board have reported improvements in their lives. Hence my statement that I felt that a poll would find many divorced people generally OK with that status. Especially in contrast to OP, who as someone succinctly put it, is a slave. Let's try to remember that I didn't start a thread entitled "The Joys OF Divorce". All my remarks on this thread should be taken in the context of this particular thread.

As regards reading books to learn the case against divorce, I shouldn't think that would be necessary. Anyone who can do division can figure out a pretty good case with no help at all. Won't even need those beloved spreadsheets.

Ha
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Old 12-08-2007, 08:54 AM   #94
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Very balanced reply, Ha. I think you're right. My response was deliberately negative and probably unjustly so. To be honest, only part of my life as a divorced person sucks.
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Old 12-30-2007, 06:55 PM   #95
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Seek counseling - it may be the best decision the two of you have ever made.

Bob
My experience differs. I did suggest counseling with the first wife. A lot of things are clearer in hindsight, one of which is that the idiot counselor was incompetent and made assumptions that were not true. So if the first one turns out like that it may be possible to try another - I know of one couple who went through three before they found one that clicked. But it did work. For them.

Your mileage may vary.
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