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Cheaper to keep her?
Old 11-10-2007, 10:28 PM   #1
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Cheaper to keep her?

I have a major quandary.. This is honesty all up front .. Ill try to make it simple but factual> I am 56 Married 33 Yrs. 3 Grown Children. Spouse a stay home mom all her life. I have spent the last 9 years grinding it out in MEGA corp. The job put me in the hospital 2 yrs ago. (Me and stress are less tolerant than in my earlier yrs)... Now here is the problem.
Financials- 401K 650K IRA 150K Cash and stock 100K Mortgage 250K no other major debts. (Basically need 80K to make bills) Pension @ age 60 estimated 30K per yr. Military Pension age 60 @ 8 K + Medical (Retired Reserve)

My problem: I had been dreaming of stopping next year and getting off the stress wheel. I anticipated my wife felt the same. I would do some part time job to bridge my yrs to age 60.

All 3 of my "GROWN KIDS" have migrated back home for various reasons. Youngest age 25, middle age 27, oldest age 29 with 2 kids --(separated)

I have never really gotten along well with my children and the stress of them all being here is making life miserable.

I told my wife we needed to start controlling our expenses because I plan on stopping next year. She said no way we could afford to etc..

I had thought we were on the same page but these grown kids in all reality are her love not me. And yes they are mine too.. but as I said it has never been a great relationship.

Should I just acknowledge we are no longer the same, go to an attorney and figure out how to split in a fair manner? or Just find a separate apartment and grind it out? I can't stay here much longer....The sad thing is I really dreamed of retirement with her.. just not the kids//
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Old 11-10-2007, 10:39 PM   #2
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It's good you are writing about it on this anonymous forum, but it would be much more effective IMHO to go to a counselor with your wife. I believe that she is not hearing you. If she has a brain she won't want to lose a guy who really cares about her. Sometimes people who have lived together for decades just tune each other out unintentionally. Asking to go to a counselor should get her attention and let her know it's a serious problem. At least try a counselor before you go to an attorney.
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Old 11-10-2007, 10:42 PM   #3
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Oh come on they gotta let you off the mat. 25,27,29 what are you charging for rent?

33 years married you sound tired. It doesn't sound like you're giving a lot of energy to salvaging the marriage. Haven't been to marriage counseling yet but if I brought them this situation I'd hope they would be offering plenty of great options from a neutral 3rd party to give me some daylight without my spouse telling me I was being unreasonable.
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Old 11-10-2007, 10:43 PM   #4
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You gotta get the grown kids out of your house. They need to fend for themselves. You and your wife are stressed from the return home of them. Sorry but some tough love is needed. For the sake of your health and marriage.
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Old 11-10-2007, 11:13 PM   #5
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I will give my advice with this caveat.. I have never been married and the guys and work say "are you going to listen to someone who has never been married".... so here goes...

Start charging rent to your kids NOW.. tell your wife that it is 'tough love' and that to be a good parent you need to make your children INDEPENDENT... if they are not, then you failed as a parent...

Along with the rent, tell them they have X days (or 3 to 6 months) to find a place of their own. Again, no negotiation... and not giving in to the wife.. stand your ground..

Tell your wife you love her and that to protect the marriage that you two need to be alone and to get counseling.. that you life is changing no matter what and that you know it is difficult to change so you need some 'help' in the transition...

If she balks and any of this and says you will not do this or that and insists, then the next statement comes out of your mouth... "It is either them or me who will be living here"... if she chooses them you know where you stand.. if she chooses you, then good for you.. but you still need the help for the transition...

Make sure that she understand that you do not want to work until you die... that you want to enjoy your wealth now before you can not... that you want to spoil the grand kids and be with her...

Again.. do this is a open way (yes, I know some of what I said is not conducive to this).. and make her understand...



NOW.. if you really are 'different' and that you already know that you do not want to be with this woman no matter what, then just go straight to the lawyer and get on with your life... but remember, it might not be as great as you think it will be without your family... but, it might.. only you know..
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Old 11-10-2007, 11:22 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl View Post
Oh come on they gotta let you off the mat. 25,27,29 what are you charging for rent?

33 years married you sound tired. It doesn't sound like you're giving a lot of energy to salvaging the marriage. Haven't been to marriage counseling yet but if I brought them this situation I'd hope they would be offering plenty of great options from a neutral 3rd party to give me some daylight without my spouse telling me I was being unreasonable.
I should have added for the adults at home.
25 yr old had serious drug problems teenage yrs. Paid the price with jail etc. Got an education in spite of it and a good job but recently had to complete a BI and they discovered he has a criminal record for his stupid mistakes. He has been paying minimal rent 250 because I wanted him to get on his feet. -- He could be out of a job soon.

27 yr old finished college this past summer .. no job to date.. yes he looks but not as hungry as I would expect.'


29 Yr old daughter with 1 yr and 3 yr old boys recently seperated ,, She has a decent job, going back to school that she pays to enhance her degree.. to prepare for divorce and single mom . (She is the only one I feel confident will be OK)

The other 2 would be on the streets or in jail without this sheltered support... When people say tufff love its harder than you think...

Looking back on mistakes doesn't help.
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Old 11-10-2007, 11:35 PM   #7
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Looking back on mistakes doesn't help.
You and I don't know each other well enough to be able to separate the practical advice from the merely offensive, but here goes.

1. How would your daughter, separated from her spouse, feel about the possible divorce of her parents? What advice could she give?

2. If you're looking to the future, try reading that old standby "The Case Against Divorce". As Erma Bombeck used to say, that grass may be greener 'cause it's growing over the septic tank. Or you may finish the book convinced that divorce is the "solution".

3. Which problem is more easily/quickly solved in the next few months-- a career change for you or getting the kids out of the house?
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Old 11-11-2007, 12:34 AM   #8
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One more vote for counseling first.

And food for thought. You won't get tagged for child support, but alimony might be high in a divorce if they take into any account your wife's expenses due to the kids living with her. I have no idea how that would really work.

Good luck. That's a bad situation and I hope it gets resolved for the best.
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Old 11-11-2007, 01:54 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raygun99 View Post
I am 56 Married 33 Yrs. 3 Grown Children. Spouse a stay home mom all her life. I have spent the last 9 years grinding it out in MEGA corp. The job put me in the hospital 2 yrs ago. (Me and stress are less tolerant than in my earlier yrs)... Now here is the problem.
Financials- 401K 650K IRA 150K Cash and stock 100K Mortgage 250K no other major debts. (Basically need 80K to make bills) Pension @ age 60 estimated 30K per yr. Military Pension age 60 @ 8 K + Medical (Retired Reserve)
How much is your SS going to be at age 62? Because unless I am missing something, even without the family problems you are not in a retirement friendly situation. With your $900 assets giving you $36,000, adding the pensions gets you $72,000 pre-tax.

Quote:
My problem: I had been dreaming of stopping next year and getting off the stress wheel. I anticipated my wife felt the same. I would do some part time job to bridge my yrs to age 60.
If your wife felt the same, she would have gotten a job to help, and would have hung up the no vacancy sign when the kids arrived. Unfortunately, she doesn't feel the same.


Quote:
I told my wife we needed to start controlling our expenses because I plan on stopping next year. She said no way we could afford to etc..

I had thought we were on the same page but these grown kids in all reality are her love not me. And yes they are mine too.. but as I said it has never been a great relationship.
I think your family holds the mental model of husband/father as horse in harness.

Quote:
Should I just acknowledge we are no longer the same, go to an attorney and figure out how to split in a fair manner? or Just find a separate apartment and grind it out? I can't stay here much longer....The sad thing is I really dreamed of retirement with her.. just not the kids//

You really can't afford to continue in this toxic situation but with a lifetime non-working wife (her youngst child is 25; what has she been doing for the past 20 years?) you may be a big loser in a divorce. One possibility would be to hide you dissatisfaction, get a job that will get you transferred somewhere else-maybe Abu-Dhabi would be far enough. Save money, don't tell her much about it. Eventually the kids and she will tire of one another, and meantime you will have a separate life. Once the rug rats are gone you should have more options. A divorce would maybe be better, but you must be prepared to accept that you may have to support her forever.

Another possibility is to give them a one month notice to vacate. You move into an extended stay suite during this time to minimize the chances for bad events. Tell her your health is at risk, that you are dead serious about what you expect, and that she is in charge of carrying it out within the month. Don't be too specific about what your sanctions might be if it fails, imply that it is a done deal. Face it, if all these "kids" did was to go rent a 2 or 3 bedroom apartment together and get part time menial jobs, they would not be on the street. As for the doper, there is nothing you or your wife could possibly do to alter the outcomes there. It is in his hands, and the hands of destiny.

Don't discuss much; the more you say the easier it is for them to plan a strategy to frustrate your ends. They have ignored your needs so far; why should that change? It is comfortable for everyone involved but you.

Really sucks man, I feel your pain.

Ha
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Old 11-11-2007, 03:56 AM   #10
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Your DW may have just had an initial bad reaction to the idea. Bring it again. Tell her how you are feeling and that you are stressed out.

Give the kids a time-line to move out. Be realistic. Share your goals with them after DW is on board. Let them know that part of your plan is to down-size the house to save on expenses, etc...

Your wife is naturally going to want to keep things status quo. Her change is for the negative... she will lose spending money. But that is too bad.

Bottom-line - if you split all of this will occur and she will be on a survival level income. Somehow, you need to let her know that you are serious. But before you go down that path... make sure you can afford to ER.

Here is an alternate idea. Set an ER target (example 59.5) and beging executing your plan. kids out in 1 year. DW redice spending immediately with target reductions over the next couple years. Down-size house in 2 years, etc...
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Old 11-11-2007, 06:37 AM   #11
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Counselling.

Soon.
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As if you didn't know..If the above message contains medical content, it's NOT intended as advice, and may not be accurate, applicable or sufficient. Don't rely on it for any purpose. Consult your own doctor for all medical advice.
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Old 11-11-2007, 06:40 AM   #12
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I agree with much that has been said here. Counseling or if you can make it work, long conversations with your wife are needed. With all three kids back at home, it sounds like your wife actually orchestrated this in some manner, because it is what she wants.

As for the kids:

youngest: did he not disclose past problems when hired? Was it asked? If so, he lied and needs to accept consequences, if not, he needs to fight to keep his job arguing his current performance. In either case, it is his problem to handle. Even if he is paying minimal rent - what is he doing with the rest? Saving or spending? Needs a deadline to get out.

middle: needs to push harder (deadline) to find a job.

oldest with kids: if she is back in school, you have a deadline - school plus 1-2 months to get a new/up graded job and get on with things.

While I don't generally agree with running from problems, the suggestion to find a new job in a different location will give you a flavor of what your expenses and reserves would be if divorced and whether you would really perfer to go it alone versus trying to fix what you have.
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Old 11-11-2007, 06:57 AM   #13
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Your DW may have just had an initial bad reaction to the idea. Bring it again. Tell her how you are feeling and that you are stressed out.

Give the kids a time-line to move out. Be realistic. Share your goals with them after DW is on board. Let them know that part of your plan is to down-size the house to save on expenses, etc...

Your wife is naturally going to want to keep things status quo. Her change is for the negative... she will lose spending money. But that is too bad.

Bottom-line - if you split all of this will occur and she will be on a survival level income. Somehow, you need to let her know that you are serious. But before you go down that path... make sure you can afford to ER.

Here is an alternate idea. Set an ER target (example 59.5) and beging executing your plan. kids out in 1 year. DW redice spending immediately with target reductions over the next couple years. Down-size house in 2 years, etc...
I understand the issues with your boys, but they are now MEN and you will not be there to bail them out forever. The same goes for your daughter. There are two ADULTS who made those two grandchildren. They yes THEY should raise those children. I don't know about you just from what I am reading but I am tired of ADULTS who get married have kids then want a divorce and want someone else to raise HIS kids, too bad he and your daughter should raise the kids.

You and your wife gotta LIVE!
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Old 11-11-2007, 07:14 AM   #14
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Get Thee to a counselor! I would maybe get some personal help without your wife for a start and bring her later.

My cousins son was in a similiar position to your youngest with a criminal record from being young and stupid. He also got an eduation and thanks in part to him getting financial help when in school and when he lost jobs due to the criminal record he at thirty five is middle management with his sights on higher levels.

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Old 11-11-2007, 07:26 AM   #15
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I should have added for the adults at home.
25 yr old had serious drug problems teenage yrs. Paid the price with jail etc. Got an education in spite of it and a good job but recently had to complete a BI and they discovered he has a criminal record for his stupid mistakes. He has been paying minimal rent 250 because I wanted him to get on his feet. -- He could be out of a job soon.

27 yr old finished college this past summer .. no job to date.. yes he looks but not as hungry as I would expect.'


29 Yr old daughter with 1 yr and 3 yr old boys recently seperated ,, She has a decent job, going back to school that she pays to enhance her degree.. to prepare for divorce and single mom . (She is the only one I feel confident will be OK)

The other 2 would be on the streets or in jail without this sheltered support... When people say tufff love its harder than you think...

Looking back on mistakes doesn't help.
Now it sounds like you are making excuses for the children to stay...

as for the 25 y.o.... you are right, he screwed up and will pay the price for the rest of his life... so does that mean YOU should? And I have inlaws who have the same problem... and they keep going back to jail as they still do drugs... and I have seen parents spend their whole retirement on a drug addict child only to see that child go back to drugs and to jail... if he is off drugs now (which you seem to imply) then great for him, but again, why should you pay the price?

the 27 yo What have you been doing letting someone go to school until they are 27 Seems to me he figured out the minimum he needed to do to stay on the parents tit... and you let him... If a kid is not going to college full time and graduating when they are about 22 or so, sorry, kick them in the butt and get them going... he will stay in your house forever if he can... (and BTW, one of my former friends is 48 and still living at home... I know what I am talking about even though I do not have kids, I have seen it from the other side and heard what he said)... and I BET he will get hungry very quickly if he knows he will be on the street in a month or two if he does nothing... (let me ask.. who pays for all of HIS stuff.. his car, his insurance, his entertainment, his dates is it dear old dad? Well, if it is, he HAS a job and he seems to be working it well)...

As for the 29.. you did not say how long she was separated.. and you did not say how well they were before separation... almost all of the ones I have seen, the wife stayed in the home with the children and the husband moved out... so why is yours different? The state will force him to give her enough to live off IF they were doing OK... so it sounds like he might have been a loser and made no money so you are now stuck raising your two grand kids (now, for some that is NOT a problem, but you had indicated it was)...


None of what I have said to do would indicate that you do not care for your children... but again, you said you did not.. that it was only your wife that was preventing you from doing these things...

Good luck... which ever way you go you do need counseling just from what you write about your spouse...
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Old 11-11-2007, 10:03 AM   #16
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Call a counselor. The print out 4 copies of this thread and give them each a copy. Go to the counselor. It'll probably be a tougher week than usual.
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Old 11-11-2007, 11:31 AM   #17
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I was the 25 year old....drugs, alcohol and what not. I moved around a lot and even came back to my parents house for about 2 years before I moved out again. And they let me live their rent free and I used all the money I should have been saving on my partying.
I moved out at 25 and have been living on my own since. I have had to eat ramen noodles and have no cable for a few years. I also got help and go to aa and in the last four years, I have made a good life for myself.
If you make it a comfortable atmosphere for your kids at home....they will be living with you till they are 55! Sometimes, throwing them out is really a good thing for everyone involved. For me, I had to get out of my parents house because I could not stand them and the first opportunity I got, I left. Even if I lost my job, had no money, and life just fell apart.....I would not show up at their door, but that's a whole another story!
Definitely invest in some counseling and give the children a deadline.
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Old 11-11-2007, 11:41 AM   #18
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Two options:
1) Get everything out in the open, talk it all over, rebuild a trust relationship, figure out how to repair all these broken relationships if possible, and finish the breaking where not possible and reach a compromise with your wife on your mutual future.

2) Get an apartment, file for divorce, kiss half your money goodbye, pay a bunch in alimony, lose your house, and work another 15 years to get almost back to where you are now. Maybe have a lot of regrets later in life.
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Old 11-11-2007, 12:01 PM   #19
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It probably is cheaper to keep her but not the adult children .They need to get a life .It's hard giving the kids the boot but you are not helping them by letting them continue to be dependent on you.They need to move out and grow up .
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Old 11-11-2007, 12:07 PM   #20
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First of all, let me say that I was never able to have a successful marriage. I am not married now, will never be married again . . . let's see, I guess I've been single 25 yrs now. I tried it more than once, and it is not for me. Also, everything I say is only my opinion. You are the one who has to live any advice you take, so everything should be taken lightly. And now for my observations.

Your post punched all my (bad) memory buttons. In my extended family what I have observed is that DH in your situation usually has 2 choices:
1) stay in the harness to fund whatever DW thinks should be given to "kids"
2) move out/divorce/give up ER and almost retirement of any kind depending how much money was in the couple's combined accts! If you split $8 million that is one thing. If you split $1 million, that is another (or $500K or $250K, you get the idea).

Following are my observation of 3 couples in my extended family which might be somewhat like your situation:
-- Wife's life revolves around "kids" from the day they are born and until she dies and DH's role is to fund everything.
-- Husband's life - doesn't have one or is not allowed to have one unless some kind of hobby gets him out and away so that DW can do what she wants without interference from him. Depending on money they have, DH might only be able to have an inexpensive hobby because all the money has to be used to "help the kids".
-- Husband's life must also revolve around "kids" or he is made miserable by DW.
-- Wife believes she has no life without the kids so, of course, she is not interested in going to counseling. She believes that DH is wrong and that she is right. Period. She says that men are not capable of loving their kids like women do.
-- If husband moves out and divorces, the extended family talks about him forever as he has now become a major SOB. "Kids" join in because dad ruined their lives and caused all this trouble for everyone. Some of the "kids" are 45 and 50.

I don't know if your situation is as dire as what I have observed, but I have never seen any positive changes.

You and your wife need to be with a strong family counselor immediately IF you can get her to go.

Unless someone can help her make the choice to relinquish the ties of dependence that bind her to the adult children, I don't see a lot of hope. She has to understand and agree with the principles behind "tough love" or it will not be successful. If you force it, she will never be happy, she will blame you for everything that happens to them, therefore, you will never be happy either.

My friend, as a female adult child of a very dysfunctional extended family, I can tell you that your road ahead is not going to be easy. Try counseling if she will go. If she won't even try it, then bottom line is that you can make the decision to 1) stay in harness or 2) leave/divorce. Neither option is a good one or a happy one. If you take option 2 then at least you have a chance to make a new life for yourself, but first you need to give counseling your best shot. There are other options people have suggested but be sure that whatever you do is not just running away. Face it and deal with it.

With all that said, do not walk away from your long marriage quickly or easily. Communicate openly with your wife about how you feel and what you require, give counseling your best shot, and try to work it out.

And yes, it is probably cheaper to keep her because you'll soon be dead from the stress. Then you won't have any problems, will you? Sorry, gallows humor.

By the time I finished writing the very long post, CFB summarized it with 2 bullet points.

Best of luck to you.

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