Constructive assessment please

If you decide to keep and renovate the vacation house as your retirement house, and if your wife is nervous (as one of your posts suggested), I second the recommendation to go ahead and complete the renovation while you are still w*rking.

Completing that project, buying a new car (for cash), and seeing the balance of our investments still healthy was what gave me confidence to pull the plug, although technically we were probably FI several years earlier.
 
I am sorry, but I just cannot wrap my head around the idea that you spend 167k a year. WTF do you spend it on?

Your retirement portfolio is pretty commendable. Get the budget under control and you will have it made in the shade.
 
Great advice and plenty of additional aspects to consider. I'm a fan of the Millionaire Next Door and we conduct our lives in a fiscally sound fashion except for the megapad and vacation home and unfortunately these are big exceptions. The vacation home is actually close by and frequently used and is the most serene place, perfect for retirement. Brewer, I'm actually trying to find out just how we spend so much, going line by line thru the budget. Music lessons and instruments were about 5k alone. Groceries for a family of 4 is coming in at 19k. So we definitely have our work cut out for us. Ideally I would like to start the renovations on the vacation house before retiring and would like to enter retirement with newish cars as well. Thanks again for all the helpful advice.
 
You are obviously an exceptional earner and hard worker. Many props for that. I think you need to do some hard thinking about labeling yourself as a LYBM type person. Your annual expense, housing costs and 19K for food that's 4750 per person including an 11 year old, these numbers are not in line with a sincere desire for ER....or at least not a stress free ER..

You have lots of options open to you so just be sure you know what works best for you and your family before you pull the plug. You certainly can afford all these things and more while you are still working and more power to you. It's after the earned income stops that problems might start cropping up.
 
Great advice and plenty of additional aspects to consider. I'm a fan of the Millionaire Next Door and we conduct our lives in a fiscally sound fashion except for the megapad and vacation home and unfortunately these are big exceptions. The vacation home is actually close by and frequently used and is the most serene place, perfect for retirement. Brewer, I'm actually trying to find out just how we spend so much, going line by line thru the budget. Music lessons and instruments were about 5k alone. Groceries for a family of 4 is coming in at 19k. So we definitely have our work cut out for us. Ideally I would like to start the renovations on the vacation house before retiring and would like to enter retirement with newish cars as well. Thanks again for all the helpful advice.

We cut the grocery bill $10K a year - started buying more whole foods, paying attention to cost per calorie, shopping mostly at warehouse stores, stockpiling meat on sale with a chest freezer, not buying individual packets of anything, no more buying water bottles. I bought BPA free water bottles from Amazon and we fill those with tap water when we go out.

We cut our energy bill by $2.5K a year just switching over to LED bulbs, going around with a Kill a Watt, turning off lights, using drying racks, cooking with small appliances, opening windows in the morning to let cool air in in summer, etc.

With cutting our expenses we were FI, and with FI we could cut out life and disability insurance - $3K a year.

Dropped the landline - $600.

Downgraded cable package and renegotiated bill every year or so - $1.2K.

We actually bought newer, nicer cars but with lower maintenance costs and better MPG.

We go out to eat several times a week and take frequent day trips, we just found cheaper ways to do everything including library passes, coupons and annual memberships with reciprocal privileges.

We went through the budget line by line and cut tens of thousands we do not miss. Most posters here seem to be saving for ER but we realized in our fifties we just needed to cut expenses to be FI. I have a spreadsheet of a few hundred or so relatively painless ways to cut expenses I've collected from books and forums. Every month we go through the list and knock off a few of the highest ROI remaining items.

Last month we knocked another $1,141 off our annual expenses, so I figure that is $57,040 less in retirement funding needed over a potential 50 year retirement. If we had focused on saving more instead of spending less there is no way we could have saved an additional $57K in after tax money in one month even with both of us working full time, but the cost cutting items only took about 20 hours of work over the course of the month between us. Lower expenses require a lower drawdown in retirement, which for us means lower taxable income, which in turn lowers our state and federal taxes, increases ACA subsidies, and allows us to be eligible for tax credits and financial aid for college.
 
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Many roads lead to ER and this thread demonstrates at least two of them

1. Have a low/moderate investable savings amount upon ER and manage based on low spend.
2. Have a high savings amount upon ER and manage based on high spend.


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I'm not one of the heavy hitters, but I also use and very much like QLP. It is easy to enter almost any kind of adjustment or tweak you can think of. Especially things like selling a property in five years. It also has an easy what-if explorer to compare current plan versus, e.g., what if I work one more or one less year.

Also, your expenses are somewhat high as others have said. But everything is relative and I think wingfooted hit the nail on the head. I've found it easier to hold the line on expenses and grow top line versus ruthlessly cut the bottom line. There seems to be a disproportionate criticism on how much someone spends but I think there could be just as much for how little someone earns. To me, it's as easy to say "I can't believe you only make $50K/year" as it is to say "I can't believe you spend $160K/year".
 
You are obviously an exceptional earner and hard worker. Many props for that. I think you need to do some hard thinking about labeling yourself as a LYBM type person. Your annual expense, housing costs and 19K for food that's 4750 per person including an 11 year old, these numbers are not in line with a sincere desire for ER....or at least not a stress free ER..
+1 There is no doubt a certain thrifty cachet to labeling yourself as living below your means, especially among the early retirement crowd that frequents this forum. But you come across as being a lot closer to "living within your means" than "living below your means" You have a high income and spend (imho) way too much of it. How exactly do you manage to spend 19k on food each year? That's $13 per day per person. Unless you frequent expensive restaurants, that would be enough for the entire family to eat out every other day or so. Get your budget under control and you could retire tomorrow.
 
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Great advice and plenty of additional aspects to consider. I'm a fan of the Millionaire Next Door and we conduct our lives in a fiscally sound fashion except for the megapad and vacation home and unfortunately these are big exceptions. The vacation home is actually close by and frequently used and is the most serene place, perfect for retirement. Brewer, I'm actually trying to find out just how we spend so much, going line by line thru the budget. Music lessons and instruments were about 5k alone. Groceries for a family of 4 is coming in at 19k. So we definitely have our work cut out for us. Ideally I would like to start the renovations on the vacation house before retiring and would like to enter retirement with newish cars as well. Thanks again for all the helpful advice.


I can't help wondering if there is some overspending here.

For a family if 3 (when DS is at home) we spend max $500/mo on groceries and eating out- we usually eat cheap, but sometimes splurge. You probably can cut that grocery budget easily in half with some planning.

A word on musical instruments. I played in a band concert a few days ago followed by a middle school aged band. Half the 12 year old flute players had high end flutes and they didn't even hold them correctly. You can rent to own a decent instrument for about $30/month unless it's a bassoon or something. Don't buy expensive instruments for the kids until they're ready. There's no need to keep up with the Jones's with any more instruments. I bought my professional model flute used in 1988. $3K. Refurbished once, cleaned and adjusted every couple of years. I know someone who found a wooden professional model flute in a Gettysburg antique store in perfect condition and paid $165 for it.

Also, if they don't practice, you aren't getting your money 's worth.


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On the grocery front, our neighborhood grocery store is often double the prices, sometimes more, than the ethnic markets and warehouse stores just ten minutes away. I just never bothered to keep a price book until DH wanted to ER so I never realized how big a difference there was and what that meant over a year's time, let alone decades. I do get the paying $10K more for groceries over a year. It is easy to do if you don't think to compare prices and maybe shop in a more blue collar city. In three years we have seen neighbors exactly once at the pack it yourself warehouse store under 10 minutes from our house where we do a lot of our weekly shopping now.
 
Thanks for being so generous with your time. Really appreciate all the input and overall a good reality check for where we are. I still like my job, just want to safely land this plane at or before age 55 for all the reasons people list on this site and especially b/c I love being away from work much more than being at work. The grocery bill is kind of ridiculously high and even though we use SAMS and coupons with the local store, we clearly need to look hard at the specifics of this. I brown bag lunch every day and we ditched the land line a few years back, but the cellphone bill is killing us.

Thanks for the good perspective on ER wingfooted! I ate plenty of Top Ramen noodles earlier in life and we took no vacations. Life is fragile and short and after achieving a stable good income, we chose not to eat Ramen noodles and to take a few nice vacations with the family, kind of a balanced approach.

I did not have the opportunity for music lessons as a child to we have tried to expose our kids to music and much to our surprise, they have done well. The oldest plays both piano and flute. We purchase used instruments at first. After years of practice, marching band and local symphony, we bought a very nice but used flute and a dang piccolo (I was not a band nerd so I didn't know a piccolo was also part of the deal).

Someguy, you and PB have me pretty much sold me on trying out QLP.

Thanks again, all of your input is priceless...:cool:
 
Just remember that QLP is a really good deterministic planner. You provide it with an investment return assumption and it assumes that your portfolio grows each year by that amount so it gives you a good indication of your financial retirement preparedness ignoring sequence of returns risk.

I used QLP as my base case and I think it does a good job of helping one think through the things you need to consider like retirement planning time horizon, SS, pensions, tax rates, inflation, investment return, changes to your home if any, debt/mortgage repayment if applicable, living expenses, adjustments to living expenses, college expenses, and any special expenses (perhaps a wedding in my case).

I then supplemented QLP with analysis using the same assumptions to the extent practical using Financial Engines, Firecalc and other stochastic type analysis tools to evaluate sequence of returns risk (if investment performance is poor in you early years of retirement how it affects your retirement preparedness).
 
Thanks for the good perspective on ER wingfooted! I ate plenty of Top Ramen noodles earlier in life and we took no vacations. Life is fragile and short and after achieving a stable good income, we chose not to eat Ramen noodles and to take a few nice vacations with the family, kind of a balanced approach.

:


Believe me, I have taken plenty of criticism on my own ER plans from the LBYM contingent on this board. I agree with your approach based on high savings balance / high spend.


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I don't consider your grocery spending crazy. We have 2 teens and spend $1100-$1300 a month. We do not eat a lot of fast food or eat out. I have struggled to get the grocery bills down and finally decided that we like to eat protein so it is just going to be high. We don't eat high carb foods like rice and pasta for health reasons.

Our annual budget is slightly less than yours. We have absurd real estate taxes which is part of the reason. We also plan to downsize our home to get costs down.

I think the biggest area of planning for you is SS. If your wife has only 20 years of SS earnings, her expected benefits may not be as large as you think. You should download AnyPIA from the SS web site and put in actual earnings numbers with 0's for those years after retirement. You may find that she is better off taking the spousal benefit than her own. There are many possible strategies to consider in your situation like File and Suspend, if it is still allowed when you get to that point. It is probably best for you to delay your SS to age 70, as you mentioned, to act as longevity insurance. This is the one area you may want to buy software to evaluate. In your case, the different strategies could make a big difference.
 
I don't really see a lot of criticism or judging in most of the comments here, most of us are just pointing out the ways in which the OP deviates from the norm in his spending and planning which is what he asked for in the first post.

My question and comments are leading to one question, do you know yourself and your family well enough to nail down a retirement that works for all of you. The OP is in his early fifties and has a lots of options to chose from. Everyone here has a completely different idea of what they want and need everyday. I wouldn't dream of giving anyone here a proper "budget" for food that's not my business. Pointing out someone spends more then average is just a comment not a judgement.
I love DLDS hints about how to save money, but that's the way I do things anyway. More then a few people reading this would prefer working longer and not having to deal with all that penny pinching.
 
In my VERY humble opinion, once you dump the "Main home: $1.1M" boat anchor, and if you're planning to work a few more years, you guys should be set.

My wife and I are almost at the exact same place on the life trail, fwiw.
 
Believe me, I have taken plenty of criticism on my own ER plans from the LBYM contingent on this board. I agree with your approach based on high savings balance / high spend.


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I don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong with high spend. Our issue was that we were spending a lot previously and not getting good value for our money. Our home phone works the same now with Ooma as it did with AT&T. Our Internet service works the same with our own modem except we save $8 a month on modem rent. Our cell phones work the same on a cheaper plan. The LED bulbs work better than CFLS or incandescent and do not have any mercury.

The pack it yourself grocery store is owned by Lucky's and has basically the same products as their retail stores but the everyday prices are much less. I'd rather shop there, save thousands on groceries and have money for a home improvement or a trip to Hawaii each year than go back to doing weekly shopping at the local retail stores. Plays, planetariums and museums are the same places whether we go on a free pass or pay full price - only with the passes we can go as much as we have time for and it doesn't cost anything except gas.

I can work from home at our hobby jobs as much or as little as a want and make Bay Area tech worker type income doing that, but for me the bargain hunting is a new a hobby so I actually find that more fun than working. I know many people here have always been frugal and planning for ER so none of this is new, but for us optimizing our spending is a new idea and has been the Rosetta stone to ER. It was easier to cut over $100K (including taxes) off our annual expenses than it was to save $5M for retirement to cover our old spending habits. I don't live on a super low budget and it is still probably high compared to many posters here, especially those who live in the South or Midwest, but we keep chipping away and keep looking for ways to live better but spend less.

We don't do stuff like ride our bikes to the store to save $1 on gas, make our own yogurt, make our own soap or not go out to eat. We just try to find ways like changing stores or car repair shops or stockpiling products on sale we would have to buy anyway to save money - savings with a high ROI on our time.
 
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Wow! Had no idea I would get so many responses. Had a discussion with the spouse today about the grocery category being especially high and upon further evaluation we realized that this also contained a years worth of alcohol, specifically wine. Going to have to work on bringing this cost down :(.
 
Wow! Had no idea I would get so many responses. Had a discussion with the spouse today about the grocery category being especially high and upon further evaluation we realized that this also contained a years worth of alcohol, specifically wine. Going to have to work on bringing this cost down :(.

Try the better box wines. We were pretty impressed by a recent sampling of Black Box "Platinum" edition.
 
I think you guys are doing great, and clearly LYBM. You've managed to save a ton of money at a relatively young age, and with your conservative AA it isn't because you bought options on Tesla stock and cashed out.

I'll disagree with the majority here I say don't worry about your spending until you have to. While a 3.5-4% withdrawal rate has historically worked a very high percentage of the time, for many years it is way too low. Realistically if you've got 5 million+ at age 51, you are in all likelyhood going to end up paying estate taxes. Why not spend it instead of giving it to Uncle Sam.

If you retire at age 55 with 5 million and you manage to lose 1.5 million (which would difficult with 45/55 AA) that still leaves you 3.5 million. I am pretty sure that you could cut the budget to $140K. When I retired to Hawaii, one of the few sacrifice I made was giving up drinking expensive wine. I drink less wine, and no more $100 bottles.
I won't say I don't miss it at all but it was relatively easy thing to give up. If the market hadn't crashed in 2000 I probably wouldn't have given it up, but it did so I cut it out.
 
One question-that I do not think anyone has made- surprisingly in this long thread...

How much of your budget is spent on your kids?
The music lessons line in the budget? That has to disappear and should not be part of your 50 years of annual expenses. Your grocery bills seem high to me, and I have to believe that someday your kids will grow up and buy their own food, so that cannot be part of your 50 year budget either. Same goes for car and ultimately health insurance on your kids, and who knows what other stuff you might be spending on that you may not need once they become independent? Life Insurance? With a big nest egg and kids getting older, that is an expense you may be able to eliminate.


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On the wine front, you might have a neutral third party help you do some blind taste testing and see if without knowing the price or seeing the label you can really tell the difference between cheap and expensive wine:

'You Are Not So Smart': Why We Can't Tell Good Wine From Bad - The Atlantic

"In the second experiment, the one with the switched labels, the subjects went on and on about the cheap wine in the expensive bottle. They called it complex and rounded. They called the same wine in the cheap bottle weak and flat."

No point in paying for marketing and not real product value. I buy our wine from Grocery Outlet.

Wine Tasting: It is Junk Science
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-tasting-junk-science-analysis
 
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One question-that I do not think anyone has made- surprisingly in this long thread...

How much of your budget is spent on your kids?
The music lessons line in the budget? That has to disappear and should not be part of your 50 years of annual expenses. Your grocery bills seem high to me, and I have to believe that someday your kids will grow up and buy their own food, so that cannot be part of your 50 year budget either. Same goes for car and ultimately health insurance on your kids, and who knows what other stuff you might be spending on that you may not need once they become independent? Life Insurance? With a big nest egg and kids getting older, that is an expense you may be able to eliminate.


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This is what I was thinking. I also have $5k/year total in music lessons for my teen & tween. But it will go away when they go to college. I don't plan on funding future music lessons when they are in their 20's. LOL.

I also have a budget item for extra curricular expenses (baseball leagues, basketball leagues, robotics team, etc.). Again - that's an expense that will disappear in the future. Funding the college funds will go away when they go to college.

Both of those are line items that *could* be eliminated if things turn south and we need to tighten our belts - but we've hopefully built in enough buffer to keep them for the next 7 years.

I'm assuming our groceries will drop when the kids are launched, too - we spend about $12k/year for a family of 4.

Our annual spend should drop a lot when the kids are launched.
 
Music lessons can be expensive: $35k a year for five years at a private college lol. Plus extras. Now he's a starving artist, but very happy *grin*. That didn't include lessons since 5th grade, traveling around the country performing since that age... Count yourself lucky if yours aren't musically gifted.

Your spending seems high to me as well, but I suspect that may be the areas in which we live. Our four bedroom two story cost us $126k when we purchased it. Our vacation home a '95 class B camper - which we USED! We really don't drink - a six pack of beer stays in the fridge for months. We eat out a lot. The two of us spend at least $1k a month on food. We also assist starving artist. He works his butt off.

Our living budget was about 2/3 of yours. Still is, even in retirement. But we travel a lot - almost constantly. But we also paid college expenses out of our pay checks.

In short, I think you can do it at the expense level you quoted, but it's not guaranteed. You'll be at the edge at 4% for some time but if nothing goes south it should be doable. If I remember ages, you'll be supporting the youngest child for another 11 years - at least.

Second the motion - get rid of the big house as soon as feasible and renovate the smaller while you're still working. Get rid of any expenses you don't need. Sacrifice now pays dividends after retirement.

It's hard for us to comment specifically on yours without a detailed list.

Good luck.


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