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Old 11-06-2018, 02:34 PM   #21
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Just my 2 cents, but you need to buckle down on the saving. You are too invested in real estate in one area. Did you say there was only one industry there? If that goes south that will cut into the numbers of renters.
I think you need to pump money into liquidity, even stocks.
You cannot eat real estate.
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Old 11-06-2018, 04:38 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by calmloki View Post
I'm guessing SmallCityDave has been pushing funds hard at the rentals to get them paid off. That's what we did. There is a great feeling of security having all the properties free and clear. There is a big disposition on this board toward stock and bond funds and a big antipathy toward financial advisors of the commision type. Probably reasonable, but you do you SmallCityDave - You have a nice chunk of cash saved for a future rental, that can stand in as emergency funds. You are targeting about 60 for retirement - have you considered your rental exit plan? 69 here, and I'm getting REAL done with riding herd on our rentals, but my gal has a very hard time looking at the tax penalty for a stack of almost fully depreciated properties - also they bring in a stack of money very consistently. During the last big stock market crash tenants kept paying. During the big real estate crash tenants kept paying. Stock funds have done great the last years - but they can fall on their faces for unknown reasons and you can't do anything about it but hope they come back up. If you are doing rentals and are independent contractors I'm thinking you like to feel you have some control over things..

At this point we have cut our number of doors (we're mostly apartments) by 1/4 and have an absurd amount of cash waiting for a great deal but earning about 3% in CD and bank deals. We also have money in hard money loans and land sales contracts coming in. And, because I want to cover the good chance that I'm not the smartest person in the world, about 20% of our net worth in stock and bond funds. No FA, Vanguard.

You hit the nail on the head..... in 2008 the real estate market took a big hit but people were very happy to write a rent check. Your right I do feel that I have a bit of control with these rentals unlike the stock market.


I haven't thought much about our exit plan but perhaps when SS hit's for both of us would be a good time to transition out.
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Old 11-06-2018, 04:54 PM   #23
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We are thinking about retiring in about 8 years or so.... we are both independent contractors (my wife works from home) we really like what we do and life couldn't be much better.
So why the focus on retiring? Maybe you could just scale back. Personally, I’d rather do the independent contractor gig than spend more time being a Landlord. Which do you prefer? True, rentals will provide income, but so will a financial portfolio. Which, for you, would be easier to build and, more importantly, maintain?
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Old 11-06-2018, 06:00 PM   #24
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Well done! I agree with others, if the rentals are all paid off, focus on building up the IRA/401(k)/Roth IRA, so that you have some diversity in your investments. By the time you're 58, do you still want to be managing your rentals? I had some friends who sold their Los Angeles rentals, moved to Maui, and bought more. After 5 years of managing those, they had enough, and sold everything. Of course, you could always pay a management company if you no longer want to deal with the hassles of being a landlord.
I don’t see an issue doing it at 58 but every few years some of these renters make me scratch my head. I wouldn’t mind using a pm but I’m in the industry and I see how they are managed I’m not sure that would work for us.
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Old 11-06-2018, 06:11 PM   #25
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So why the focus on retiring? Maybe you could just scale back. Personally, I’d rather do the independent contractor gig than spend more time being a Landlord. Which do you prefer? True, rentals will provide income, but so will a financial portfolio. Which, for you, would be easier to build and, more importantly, maintain?
It’s all about having options, if I’m still enjoying what I do I may keep doing it at 65. I’m in real estate so it’s one and the same but I don’t manage properties besides what we have.

I’m currently working about 30 hrs a week and my wife works 2 days a week. Real estate is what I know and understand so that’s a bit easier to manage. I don’t get my hands terribly dirty except when someone moves out but even then I just make some calls and write some checks.
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Old 11-07-2018, 05:40 AM   #26
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I'd like to get some feedback on what we could be doing better.
Your plan sounds great to me, but I 'm from a few generations back, and my youngest is five years older than you.

After 60 years of marriage and 30 years of very happy retirement, my thinking hasn't changed. Enjoy life, do what feels right, and remember that as a young retiree, you can always go back a bit if the situation changes.
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Old 11-07-2018, 11:03 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Choices View Post
Just my 2 cents, but you need to buckle down on the saving. You are too invested in real estate in one area. Did you say there was only one industry there? If that goes south that will cut into the numbers of renters.
I think you need to pump money into liquidity, even stocks.
You cannot eat real estate.
Cap rate would indicate whether or not the rentals are worth keeping.

Simply being cash flow positive doesn't mean he should keep the rentals, especially if they're SFRs in a only-one-big-employer town.
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Old 11-07-2018, 11:57 AM   #28
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Cap rate would indicate whether or not the rentals are worth keeping.

Simply being cash flow positive doesn't mean he should keep the rentals, especially if they're SFRs in a only-one-big-employer town.

The cap rates on my homes runs between 12-25% the one I just closed on should be slightly better than 15%.


Our town does have that one big employer that if they were to leave it would cripple the town but that employer has a proven track record of over 100 years and it's the government.
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Old 11-08-2018, 11:22 PM   #29
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i have a lot of rental properties. mostly sfr but also 7 duplexes. most are paid off. i use a pm to handle the day to day crap but do some of the repairs myself to save $.
they are all in small towns (pop.370, 5300, & 9500) & were cheap to buy. they cashflow fantastic. i'm grossing 65%+ more than when i had a real (multiple 6 figure) job.
i am still diversified with a 7 figure ira at vanguard, but will never need to touch it other than to buy a couple more toys every year once i get to 59.5.
no matter if the economy is booming or bust, people will need a place to live, so rentals will always be a solid investment.
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Old 11-09-2018, 02:04 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by SmallCityDave View Post

As rough example of income and outgo for this year:

$250k income
-100k for taxes, tithe and offering
-40k finish paying off rental
-10k home remodel
-55k personal "fixed" budget
-45k saved for buying and rehabbing rental
Dave,

You're doing great! Many of the comments here are good for you, too. I'm not a real estate guy, but I envy those who are. The one thing I might add to the discussion is that when you stop working, your gross income will decline significantly, and that requires a psychological adjustment. Of course, taxes should decline, too, which will help. But will you be able to continue to tithe/offer amounts that you're comfortable/happy with? Will you have sufficient income to cover periodic expenses (if they're not already in your $4500/mo budget)? Do you think you'll spend differently if you're both retired and living on your investments (some people spend more, in fact)? One of the other community members once described retirement (from a financial perspective) as changing from a focus on building up investments, to one where we expect to gradually spend down investments; and that spoke to me (I struggle with the spending down part). Is that something you've considered?

I'm not suggesting I have the answers; just hoping to add to the feedback on things to consider.

Glad you're here and hope we hear from you often,

NL
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Old 11-09-2018, 03:50 PM   #31
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Dave,

You're doing great! Many of the comments here are good for you, too. I'm not a real estate guy, but I envy those who are. The one thing I might add to the discussion is that when you stop working, your gross income will decline significantly, and that requires a psychological adjustment. Of course, taxes should decline, too, which will help. But will you be able to continue to tithe/offer amounts that you're comfortable/happy with? Will you have sufficient income to cover periodic expenses (if they're not already in your $4500/mo budget)? Do you think you'll spend differently if you're both retired and living on your investments (some people spend more, in fact)? One of the other community members once described retirement (from a financial perspective) as changing from a focus on building up investments, to one where we expect to gradually spend down investments; and that spoke to me (I struggle with the spending down part). Is that something you've considered?

I'm not suggesting I have the answers; just hoping to add to the feedback on things to consider.

Glad you're here and hope we hear from you often,

NL

Great thought provoking questions. I do think that we will live and spend differently but for the last 10 years we've been laser focused on paying off our consumer debt, home and rentals we've lived a rather frugal lifestyle (in a sense) for a couple of years we went without trash service to save a few dollars...


Will we have enough income to cover the expenses.... I certainly hope so but in reality I don't know what to expect quite yet. I keep thinking if we had a couple more rentals we could retire much sooner. I feel we could cut back substantially without feeling deprived.



Our income will come in stages, the 1st few years just the rentals after that the 401k then IRA after that my SS and last my wife's SS. I would like to be able to have all the foreseeable expenses addressed before I retire or at least have most big ticket items in the budget.
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Old 12-20-2018, 12:12 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by calmloki View Post
I'm guessing SmallCityDave has been pushing funds hard at the rentals to get them paid off. That's what we did. There is a great feeling of security having all the properties free and clear. There is a big disposition on this board toward stock and bond funds and a big antipathy toward financial advisors of the commision type. Probably reasonable, but you do you SmallCityDave - You have a nice chunk of cash saved for a future rental, that can stand in as emergency funds. You are targeting about 60 for retirement - have you considered your rental exit plan? 69 here, and I'm getting REAL done with riding herd on our rentals, but my gal has a very hard time looking at the tax penalty for a stack of almost fully depreciated properties - also they bring in a stack of money very consistently. During the last big stock market crash tenants kept paying. During the big real estate crash tenants kept paying. Stock funds have done great the last years - but they can fall on their faces for unknown reasons and you can't do anything about it but hope they come back up. If you are doing rentals and are independent contractors I'm thinking you like to feel you have some control over things..

At this point we have cut our number of doors (we're mostly apartments) by 1/4 and have an absurd amount of cash waiting for a great deal but earning about 3% in CD and bank deals. We also have money in hard money loans and land sales contracts coming in. And, because I want to cover the good chance that I'm not the smartest person in the world, about 20% of our net worth in stock and bond funds. No FA, Vanguard.
Only one rental property here but, these are options to consider:

1. 1031 exchange to ‘restart’ the depreciation calendar; likely only good if you want to keep rentals for a chunk of time.

2. Convert some/all rental properties into a Charitable Remainder Trust (CRT); the CRT can be designed to spin off income for ~2-20 yrs, you get a big tax break, and (here’s the magic) you avoid cap gains tax because the CRT entity is a non-profit and doesn’t pay taxes.

See this thread for some sample numbers: http://www.early-retirement.org/foru...rty-83474.html
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Old 12-20-2018, 04:24 PM   #33
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... The rentals aren't terribly liquid but they are income producing, the homes that we bought as rentals are worth 50-100% more than the initial purchase price and return on investment is no less than 15%-20% annually.... .
Hmmm... do I detect fuzzy math?

Maybe I'm misreading this, but this looks like the kind of math some dividend stock pickers use. It's a rather meaningless number that makes things look better than they are.

Example: I purchase an investment for $100,000 and it provides a consistent 10% net income ($10,000 annual). Some years later, it has doubled in price, and the income has increased to $15,000 annual. If I use 'return on investment', I claim that is $15,000/$100,000 = 15% 'return on investment'.

But if the investment is really worth $200,000 now, I need to use apples-apples, and realize I could invest that $200,000 elsewhere - so if I earned $15,000/$200,000 that would be 7.5% annual return. You are making 7.5% on your investment, not 15%. The $100,000 is gain. Two separate numbers. Combining them is fooling yourself, and only leads to bad financial decisions. Your current return is a function of current value - what you paid for it is irrelevant.

'Return on investment' can be useful as a forward look to compare two potential investments, but I don't think it's helpful to look backwards.

-ERD50
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Old 12-20-2018, 04:37 PM   #34
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Hmmm... do I detect fuzzy math?

Maybe I'm misreading this, but this looks like the kind of math some dividend stock pickers use. It's a rather meaningless number that makes things look better than they are.

Example: I purchase an investment for $100,000 and it provides a consistent 10% net income ($10,000 annual). Some years later, it has doubled in price, and the income has increased to $15,000 annual. If I use 'return on investment', I claim that is $15,000/$100,000 = 15% 'return on investment'.

But if the investment is really worth $200,000 now, I need to use apples-apples, and realize I could invest that $200,000 elsewhere - so if I earned $15,000/$200,000 that would be 7.5% annual return. You are making 7.5% on your investment, not 15%. The $100,000 is gain. Two separate numbers. Combining them is fooling yourself, and only leads to bad financial decisions. Your current return is a function of current value - what you paid for it is irrelevant.

'Return on investment' can be useful as a forward look to compare two potential investments, but I don't think it's helpful to look backwards.

-ERD50
This is actually more complicated. How long did for the 100% appreciation to occur? If you take the current value, subtract the purchase price, mortgage, property taxes, insurance, maintenance and other costs, then credit the appeciation and annual net income, it will give you a better picture of the total return on the initial investment. You seem to be excluding the gain.

Today, if you calculated the current sale price, less fees and taxes, and invested in something else, you would be comparing apples to apples.
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Old 12-20-2018, 05:26 PM   #35
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Hmmm... do I detect fuzzy math?

Maybe I'm misreading this, but this looks like the kind of math some dividend stock pickers use. It's a rather meaningless number that makes things look better than they are.

Example: I purchase an investment for $100,000 and it provides a consistent 10% net income ($10,000 annual). Some years later, it has doubled in price, and the income has increased to $15,000 annual. If I use 'return on investment', I claim that is $15,000/$100,000 = 15% 'return on investment'.

But if the investment is really worth $200,000 now, I need to use apples-apples, and realize I could invest that $200,000 elsewhere - so if I earned $15,000/$200,000 that would be 7.5% annual return. You are making 7.5% on your investment, not 15%. The $100,000 is gain. Two separate numbers. Combining them is fooling yourself, and only leads to bad financial decisions. Your current return is a function of current value - what you paid for it is irrelevant.

'Return on investment' can be useful as a forward look to compare two potential investments, but I don't think it's helpful to look backwards.

-ERD50

You detect something....


Why don't you tell me your thoughts of Dave Ramsey and why you don't like him?
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Old 12-20-2018, 05:39 PM   #36
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You detect something....


Why don't you tell me your thoughts of Dave Ramsey and why you don't like him?
Well, if that is Dave Ramsey math, then there's part of your answer.

But the question/analysis was stated outside of anything to do with DR. Why bring him into it?

-ERD50
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Old 12-20-2018, 05:50 PM   #37
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Well, if that is Dave Ramsey math, then there's part of your answer.

But the question/analysis was stated outside of anything to do with DR. Why bring him into it?

-ERD50

Yeah that's exactly what that was Dave Ramsey math...


You had a question about something I wrote over a month ago and I do too, so what is it that you don't like about DR?
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Old 12-20-2018, 06:36 PM   #38
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Yeah that's exactly what that was Dave Ramsey math...


You had a question about something I wrote over a month ago and I do too, so what is it that you don't like about DR?
The answer is right there, as I said. He is using math that isn't helpful to you. Why do you want to follow someone who leads you down the wrong path?

I've been shown some other bad math from him, enough to really raise the red flags. He throws around a number of expecting 12% earnings from the market. He 'validates' that with a historical 'average return' number. But 'average returns' don't add up in a meaningful way. If you take a 50% loss, you need a 200% gain to get back where you were, to zero gain. But a numerical average of -50% and +50% does not get you to zero, it gets you to a 25% loss (.5 * 1.5 = 0.75 ). And if you numerically average -50% and 200%, you get an 'average' 25% gain ( (0.5 + 2) ∕ 2 = 1.25) - but that '25% gain' does not leave any money in your pocket!

He's a smart guy, I'm sure he knows the difference, it isn't rocket science, so why does he say this? If you click on the links from those statements, you'll see why - he's trying to sell you on something.

Some people will defend DR, saying that he is for novices, and he helps those people. I accepted that for a while. Then, on another forum (not a financial forum, but filled with bright people - this was in their 'general' area), a young poster was going on about personal finance, and referring to DR. A number of other posters were warning the guy about following 'gurus', and to learn to think on your own, and to use critical thinking. And I also tuned into a few of the DR radio shows.

Well, this young poster went on, posting more DR links. The more he posted, the more we found serious fault with DR's approach.

DR gives a lot of bad advice. It is advice that just won't help you to grow financially. I understand that if someone can't control their spending, they need to fix that. But don't try to tell me that once I've learned to control spending, that I should not use a credit card, pay it off each month, and benefit from the rewards. I've made many thousands of $ over the years from CC rewards, and I never spent a penny more because I had a card. To preach that is irresponsible, and keeping people from really getting the most from their efforts.

But the worst of it is, he uses bad logic, scare tactics, and bad math to make his points. I have no respect for that. You can do better - use your own brain.

He takes the "no debt" thing to such an extreme - on one of his shows, he had this poor couple who made such bad, bad decision, all in the name of getting debt free. They would have been so much further ahead, financially and quality of life wise, if they approached debt as a tool. One to be used wisely.

A quick analogy - it is fine to start a kid out with training wheels. But if you convince them that training wheels are the only way to ride a bike, you hold them back for the rest of their lives.

That's all I have time for. Bottom line, you can do better than to listen to DR. He will hold you back.

-ERD50
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Old 12-20-2018, 06:58 PM   #39
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we try to live well beneath our means and we are fans of Dave Ramsey.

Hopefully you don't follow his investment advice.
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Old 12-25-2018, 05:28 PM   #40
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The answer is right there, as I said. He is using math that isn't helpful to you. Why do you want to follow someone who leads you down the wrong path?

I've been shown some other bad math from him, enough to really raise the red flags. He throws around a number of expecting 12% earnings from the market. He 'validates' that with a historical 'average return' number. But 'average returns' don't add up in a meaningful way. If you take a 50% loss, you need a 200% gain to get back where you were, to zero gain. But a numerical average of -50% and +50% does not get you to zero, it gets you to a 25% loss (.5 * 1.5 = 0.75 ). And if you numerically average -50% and 200%, you get an 'average' 25% gain ( (0.5 + 2) ∕ 2 = 1.25) - but that '25% gain' does not leave any money in your pocket!

He's a smart guy, I'm sure he knows the difference, it isn't rocket science, so why does he say this? If you click on the links from those statements, you'll see why - he's trying to sell you on something.

Some people will defend DR, saying that he is for novices, and he helps those people. I accepted that for a while. Then, on another forum (not a financial forum, but filled with bright people - this was in their 'general' area), a young poster was going on about personal finance, and referring to DR. A number of other posters were warning the guy about following 'gurus', and to learn to think on your own, and to use critical thinking. And I also tuned into a few of the DR radio shows.

Well, this young poster went on, posting more DR links. The more he posted, the more we found serious fault with DR's approach.

DR gives a lot of bad advice. It is advice that just won't help you to grow financially. I understand that if someone can't control their spending, they need to fix that. But don't try to tell me that once I've learned to control spending, that I should not use a credit card, pay it off each month, and benefit from the rewards. I've made many thousands of $ over the years from CC rewards, and I never spent a penny more because I had a card. To preach that is irresponsible, and keeping people from really getting the most from their efforts.

But the worst of it is, he uses bad logic, scare tactics, and bad math to make his points. I have no respect for that. You can do better - use your own brain.

He takes the "no debt" thing to such an extreme - on one of his shows, he had this poor couple who made such bad, bad decision, all in the name of getting debt free. They would have been so much further ahead, financially and quality of life wise, if they approached debt as a tool. One to be used wisely.

A quick analogy - it is fine to start a kid out with training wheels. But if you convince them that training wheels are the only way to ride a bike, you hold them back for the rest of their lives.

That's all I have time for. Bottom line, you can do better than to listen to DR. He will hold you back.

-ERD50

I'd agree with you about the 12% but that's his shtick that's how he creates revenue for himself, I doubt he could sell what he sells promising 5% as my FA did.

With how much personal/mortgage/student loan debt as we have (in the US) perhaps he isn't getting the word out enough.

You must be a real smart guy taking thousands of dollars away from the credit card companies and never spending a penny more, perhaps you should have a show of your own? I'd be a listener.

Why do you use credit cards, I'm sure you do well with your investing? Is it just so you can make thousands off of the cc companies?

Merry Christmas!
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