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Fat 'n Happy back in FL
Old 06-23-2018, 07:39 AM   #1
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Fat 'n Happy back in FL

A Newbie here, after living single in Boca Raton in the early 1980's to the early 1990's, got married in S. Florida then moved to Asheville then Virginia. When one acquires a life partner, one gets to make compromises. We're now in our 60's, me 65 she 67, and have retired to Daytona Beach.

We've sold all our rental properties, owner financed our commercial building and owner financed our business. Our home here is paid off and we have no debt. And we have about $400k to invest to create income to be compounded. Our draw down is expected to begin in about 10 years when the owner financing ends.

Wife is uneasy with most all investments in the markets due to our experiences in the past, from the market and from individuals. We've decided to purchase CD's and I have been watching the rates closely.

Next week, I'm planning on purchasing 3 CD's of about $80k each; a 1, 2, and 3 year term. Purepoint is offering 2.45%, 2.75% and 3%. The thought process is to ladder these in the future if rates escalate.

For emergency and fast access, I am going to keep about $8k in a local bank savings account and another $40k in 3 CD's with an 11 month terms with a 3 month interest penalty if cashed early.

This is my first post and I welcome comments.
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Old 06-23-2018, 08:01 AM   #2
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Welcome to the boards!
The most important thing to know is your expenses. Or expected annual spending.
The only concern with only using CD's is inflation (and the tax drag.)
If inflation takes off, rates will go up, but so will expenses. Usually the rate increase won't be enough to counter the increased expenses. The inflation of the 70's very quickly eroded the spending power of people's savings, despite high interest rate returns.
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Old 06-23-2018, 08:14 AM   #3
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My personal situation currently has not seemed to be a good fit for CD's, so I have not had one in a long time. They are tricky in the sense how long should the term be? Will rates go up fast? Will they not? No one really knows. Buying CD's is tough. You base your decisions on a bunch of unknowns. Just like everything else in life, we make the best decision we can with what we think we know. I wish you all the luck in the World.
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Old 06-23-2018, 08:26 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by urn2bfree View Post
Welcome to the boards!
The most important thing to know is your expenses. Or expected annual spending.
The only concern with only using CD's is inflation (and the tax drag.)
If inflation takes off, rates will go up, but so will expenses. Usually the rate increase won't be enough to counter the increased expenses. The inflation of the 70's very quickly eroded the spending power of people's savings, despite high interest rate returns.
The inflation factor has been discussed with a financial planner, two "wealth" bank advisors, folks online at Vanguard and with a face-to-face with a Fidelity rep. As we are debt free, food cost would seem to be the most pertinent increased expense with inflation. It would seem those with higher expenses would be more susceptible to inflation factors. Thanks for the board welcome.
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Old 06-23-2018, 08:29 AM   #5
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My personal situation currently has not seemed to be a good fit for CD's, so I have not had one in a long time. They are tricky in the sense how long should the term be? Will rates go up fast? Will they not? No one really knows. Buying CD's is tough. You base your decisions on a bunch of unknowns. Just like everything else in life, we make the best decision we can with what we think we know. I wish you all the luck in the World.
Well said. It would seem most everyone here who is either in retirement or approaching retirement would have the same questions and we're all trying to find the best fit for our particular positions. I believe the same could be true of market investments with the uncertainty factor. One of our financial reps has discussed a 3 yr callable CD that has no principle risk. And thanks for the well wishes.
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Old 06-23-2018, 08:33 AM   #6
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OP - Welcome.

Your plan for investments is in my opinion not well thought out.
You will lose buying power due to inflation every year, after you pay tax on the interest.

Perhaps in the past you bought special deals, or weird stocks on a buddies recommendation, or sold everything after the market fell a lot.

You don't mention SS, hopefully you qualify. You also don't mention IRA/ROTH or 401K accounts. If your cash you are wanting to invest in CD's is tax sheltered, then at least it may keep up with inflation.

Are you aware stock/ETF dividends are tax free for the first $101K total income per yr when filing as Married couple ?
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Old 06-23-2018, 08:38 AM   #7
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The inflation factor has been discussed with a financial planner, two "wealth" bank advisors, folks online at Vanguard and with a face-to-face with a Fidelity rep. As we are debt free, food cost would seem to be the most pertinent increased expense with inflation. It would seem those with higher expenses would be more susceptible to inflation factors. Thanks for the board welcome.
So you are not going to pay for house insurance, car insurance, electricity, health care, internet, home repairs, travel, etc costs.

There are a lot of costs besides food, so I wonder if you have an actual list of your current expenses by tracking them.
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Old 06-23-2018, 08:48 AM   #8
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OP - Welcome.

Your plan for investments is in my opinion not well thought out.
You will lose buying power due to inflation every year, after you pay tax on the interest.

Perhaps in the past you bought special deals, or weird stocks on a buddies recommendation, or sold everything after the market fell a lot.

You don't mention SS, hopefully you qualify. You also don't mention IRA/ROTH or 401K accounts. If your cash you are wanting to invest in CD's is tax sheltered, then at least it may keep up with inflation.

Are you aware stock/ETF dividends are tax free for the first $101K total income per yr when filing as Married couple ?
I appreciate you taking the time to comment. What would be your thoughts on how to invest the funds? I turn 66 in April and then will collect SS. I have a detailed list of our expenses. I have cash and no IRA/Roth or 401k accounts. I am aware that stock/ETF dividends are tax free. Share you wisdom on your recommendation. And lots of time has been spent pondering the best positions for us to take, even though it may follow in your recommendations. And I would love to find a better position than to purchase CD's.
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Old 06-23-2018, 09:16 AM   #9
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There is one giant issue I have when talking to someone who is not or perhaps never invested in the stock market. That is that they will get in because of the benefits, but when the market falls 10% or 20% or 30%, they sell and get out, locking in their losses, and then years later when it's back up 125% they ask is it time to get back in ?

So OP - if you put $xxx into the entire market, what are you going to do when it falls 10% -> 40% , will you have the emotional/mental ability to leave it all in and wait 2 or 3 years for the market to come back up ?

I suggest you read a few books on investing in the stock market, so you don't fall for brokers sale pitches. One would be "A Random Walk down Wall Street"

To point you in a direction to consider:
I would say Vanguard is a good place as they charge extremely low fees on funds and no account fee for self managed accounts.
As for an investment my first would be: VTSMX
You can read about it here: https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual...overview/vtsmx

Why I think this is good is because: it is broad, containing over 3,600 stocks so you get diversification and no risk any 1 stock going bankrupt will hurt.
It is tax efficient as turnover is around 3%.
It pays a dividend of about 1.8% (even as the price goes up/down the actual dollar dividend amount will remain pretty constant)
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Old 06-23-2018, 09:57 AM   #10
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There is one giant issue I have when talking to someone who is not or perhaps never invested in the stock market. That is that they will get in because of the benefits, but when the market falls 10% or 20% or 30%, they sell and get out, locking in their losses, and then years later when it's back up 125% they ask is it time to get back in ?

So OP - if you put $xxx into the entire market, what are you going to do when it falls 10% -> 40% , will you have the emotional/mental ability to leave it all in and wait 2 or 3 years for the market to come back up ?

I suggest you read a few books on investing in the stock market, so you don't fall for brokers sale pitches. One would be "A Random Walk down Wall Street"

To point you in a direction to consider:
I would say Vanguard is a good place as they charge extremely low fees on funds and no account fee for self managed accounts.
As for an investment my first would be: VTSMX
You can read about it here: https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual...overview/vtsmx

Why I think this is good is because: it is broad, containing over 3,600 stocks so you get diversification and no risk any 1 stock going bankrupt will hurt.
It is tax efficient as turnover is around 3%.
It pays a dividend of about 1.8% (even as the price goes up/down the actual dollar dividend amount will remain pretty constant)
As a point of info, is there any point you feel that a CD can be a wise investment for a retiree? As a real estate broker, I had much better return on my risk/investments than with the several times I invested in the market.

I do take exception that investing in the market is the "be all". My guess is you may be someone affiliated with either now, or in the past with the market. When one considers all the factors, one size does not fit all. Market investing may be the comfort level and successful performance for many, but not for all.
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Old 06-23-2018, 10:30 AM   #11
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The inflation factor has been discussed with a financial planner, two "wealth" bank advisors, folks online at Vanguard and with a face-to-face with a Fidelity rep. As we are debt free, food cost would seem to be the most pertinent increased expense with inflation. It would seem those with higher expenses would be more susceptible to inflation factors. Thanks for the board welcome.
OP, do you have other money invested and if so, how is that invested? Do you have an overall asset allocation that you would be comfortable with in mind?

With luck, CDs will just keep up with inflation. I would look at balanced funds, like Vanguard Life Strategy Moderate Growth, which is a ~60/40 blend of stocks and bonds, has a low expense ratio and a good track record.
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Old 06-23-2018, 10:31 AM   #12
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Another thing to consider New Times is that you don't have to be " all in " on any one position. You could do 50% Cd's and 50% Wellesley fund as an example, although I am not recommending you do that. Only you know your risk tolerance and it doesn't seem to be very high. There's nothing wrong with you not having a high risk tolerance.



Just realize that being too conservative carries its own risks. As others have mentioned its called inflation and it's a killer. Maybe you can come to a place where you can address the inflation risk factor that meets your brand of low risk tolerance. Inflation is real and once it knocks on your door it doesn't go away.
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Old 06-23-2018, 10:45 AM   #13
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As a point of info, is there any point you feel that a CD can be a wise investment for a retiree? As a real estate broker, I had much better return on my risk/investments than with the several times I invested in the market.

I do take exception that investing in the market is the "be all". My guess is you may be someone affiliated with either now, or in the past with the market. When one considers all the factors, one size does not fit all. Market investing may be the comfort level and successful performance for many, but not for all.
Absolutely CD's are a good choice for some money that may be needed within 5 years.
I've almost always had a CD or other FDIC insured savings available for immediate use if needed.

I don't have and never had any stock/brokerage involvement, never worked on commission except for 3 days as a vacuum cleaner salesman. But I have seen my Uncle, who invested in the stock market and it went through many crashes, and he turned into a millionaire. My parents never took any risks, not even buying a house and only invest in CD's. They got by, but had nearly nothing by the end of their lives.

My association with the market is having invested since before 1985 so got to experience the black friday, 2000 , 2008 when the market tanked, and later recovered to much higher levels.

My philosophy is to invest in many things: I have a home, rental property, CD's and Stocks.

I never suggested how much you should put in stocks, and since you brought it up I will say if you have the ability to NOT sell when the market tanks, that I was thinking you should have 100K in the broad fund I mentioned at Vanguard.

Broadly speaking;
Some people avoid stocks as they feel they are not safe (I feel individual stocks are the least safe of all stock investing).
Housing is the same way as many folks learned in 2007.
Same with Gold and Silver.
CD's look safe but only really make money when interest rates are high and fall down, now we are in the opposite cycle so they will at best not lose money.
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Old 06-23-2018, 10:56 AM   #14
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I don't think a CD is a wise "investment." A CD is a good place to store the cash you are keeping out of risk investments because you think the money will be needed in the next few years.

Real estate is a fine investment if you buy right and manage properly. You sold yours - why?

Looks like your income consists of

1. Loan payments on the building and business, remaining term 10 years.
2. Social security, starting next April for you, not clear about DW.

You say you need to replace the loan payments in 10 years when they end. You have $400k in a taxable account and no IRA's or 401k's.

Inflation is running around three percent, maybe a little more in some areas that affect your personal COL. CD rates generally underperform inflation.

The first question I would ask is what income do you think you will need in 10 years? Will the amount you will get in year 10 of the loan repayment be sufficient for your needs? In ten years, you will be 76 and 77. Will your needs be significantly different then?

The second question would be, how much am I spending today and where? Do I have enough income to invest a portion of my current income for future needs? Can I bulk up that $400k over the next ten years?

Once I understood these things, then I would decide how to invest the $400k.

Two things I think are important to consider that you may not have. First, if one of you dies, the survivor's income will drop by the amount of the smaller Social Security check. Second is the cost of long term care. If one of you ends up in a nursing home, the survivor could end up with very little other than the larger Social Security check. Planning for these possibilities would be part of the investment decision making if I were in your shoes.

Finally, I would stay away from any "adviser" that works for a bank. They are salespeople for high cost products, not impartial advisers.
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Old 06-23-2018, 11:47 AM   #15
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UP, thanks for the comment and suggestion. I realize my conservative position, due to my wife's uneasiness with the markets, runs counter to most. I'm less concerned about inflation than others about the costs of goods that will effect me.
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Old 06-23-2018, 12:08 PM   #16
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I don't think a CD is a wise "investment." A CD is a good place to store the cash you are keeping out of risk investments because you think the money will be needed in the next few years.

Real estate is a fine investment if you buy right and manage properly. You sold yours - why?

Looks like your income consists of

1. Loan payments on the building and business, remaining term 10 years.
2. Social security, starting next April for you, not clear about DW.

You say you need to replace the loan payments in 10 years when they end. You have $400k in a taxable account and no IRA's or 401k's.

Inflation is running around three percent, maybe a little more in some areas that affect your personal COL. CD rates generally underperform inflation.

The first question I would ask is what income do you think you will need in 10 years? Will the amount you will get in year 10 of the loan repayment be sufficient for your needs? In ten years, you will be 76 and 77. Will your needs be significantly different then?

The second question would be, how much am I spending today and where? Do I have enough income to invest a portion of my current income for future needs? Can I bulk up that $400k over the next ten years?

Once I understood these things, then I would decide how to invest the $400k.

Two things I think are important to consider that you may not have. First, if one of you dies, the survivor's income will drop by the amount of the smaller Social Security check. Second is the cost of long term care. If one of you ends up in a nursing home, the survivor could end up with very little other than the larger Social Security check. Planning for these possibilities would be part of the investment decision making if I were in your shoes.

Finally, I would stay away from any "adviser" that works for a bank. They are salespeople for high cost products, not impartial advisers.
Again thanks for you, and the others who have shared their thoughts and insights. I am pleased to have this level of dialogue.

In my real estate investing/developing career I was a risk taker. Likely more than most who are or were in the business. Most all of those risks/investments were beneficial and financially rewarding.

When my wife and I decided to retire, we decided to sell our assets. Some was in cash, others in purchase money mortgages. We simply do not want to invest our cash in the market. I know that goes against the grain of most, and that most here, as has been dictated so far, think that is a unwise move.

Rather than read books and become educated on the stock market and purchase popular funds, I'm leaning towards CD's. At present I'll get around a 3% return, and I will pay taxes on the interest, and most other investments will achieve a higher return.

We've created a detailed budget of our living expenses at the present. We've paid cash for our FL home. We are debt free. Our current expenses are the least they have been in many years. Our healths are very good. We've closely investigated LTC, single payment premiums, defined period premiums, annual premiums. We visited last week 3 area Assisted Living/Lifestyle/Long Term facilities to acquire costs and a sense of how those complexes work even though we hopefully are 15-20+ years away from those needs.

And the bottom line is, in our marriage we discuss finances and both party has to agree. My wife is the conservative one, me the risk taker. So if CD's with all their shortcomings keep peace in the family, then that's a better investment. Being wise or unwise.
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Old 06-23-2018, 12:55 PM   #17
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Again thanks for you, and the others who have shared their thoughts and insights. I am pleased to have this level of dialogue.

In my real estate investing/developing career I was a risk taker. Likely more than most who are or were in the business. Most all of those risks/investments were beneficial and financially rewarding.

When my wife and I decided to retire, we decided to sell our assets. Some was in cash, others in purchase money mortgages. We simply do not want to invest our cash in the market. I know that goes against the grain of most, and that most here, as has been dictated so far, think that is a unwise move.

Rather than read books and become educated on the stock market and purchase popular funds, I'm leaning towards CD's. At present I'll get around a 3% return, and I will pay taxes on the interest, and most other investments will achieve a higher return.

We've created a detailed budget of our living expenses at the present. We've paid cash for our FL home. We are debt free. Our current expenses are the least they have been in many years. Our healths are very good. We've closely investigated LTC, single payment premiums, defined period premiums, annual premiums. We visited last week 3 area Assisted Living/Lifestyle/Long Term facilities to acquire costs and a sense of how those complexes work even though we hopefully are 15-20+ years away from those needs.

And the bottom line is, in our marriage we discuss finances and both party has to agree. My wife is the conservative one, me the risk taker. So if CD's with all their shortcomings keep peace in the family, then that's a better investment. Being wise or unwise.
Welcome to FLA. As I have stated before, happy wife, happy life.
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Old 06-24-2018, 08:32 AM   #18
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I don't have anything to add to the financial advice you've been getting. Just wanted to say that you are doing everything two people can, to ensure success. I am also a big believer in marital compromise, where needed (one hopes that isn't many areas). Good luck!

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We've created a detailed budget of our living expenses at the present. We've paid cash for our FL home. We are debt free. Our current expenses are the least they have been in many years. Our healths are very good. We've closely investigated LTC, single payment premiums, defined period premiums, annual premiums. We visited last week 3 area Assisted Living/Lifestyle/Long Term facilities to acquire costs and a sense of how those complexes work even though we hopefully are 15-20+ years away from those needs.

And the bottom line is, in our marriage we discuss finances and both party has to agree. My wife is the conservative one, me the risk taker. So if CD's with all their shortcomings keep peace in the family, then that's a better investment. Being wise or unwise.
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Old 06-24-2018, 09:08 AM   #19
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I appreciate you taking the time to comment. What would be your thoughts on how to invest the funds? I turn 66 in April and then will collect SS. I have a detailed list of our expenses. I have cash and no IRA/Roth or 401k accounts. I am aware that stock/ETF dividends are tax free. Share you wisdom on your recommendation. And lots of time has been spent pondering the best positions for us to take, even though it may follow in your recommendations. And I would love to find a better position than to purchase CD's.
Welcome, sounds like you have "Won the Game" and like us want Zero risk. We are CD investors and it idoes us just fine and dandy. Our self calculated inflation rate after being retired for 10 years is < ~1-2% on average for the WHOLE 10 year period. Now that may change next year. Like you we do not work and have Zero debt.

Sounds like you have thought it out. CDs are a remedy for insomnia in our opinion. Too many equities (IMHO more than 10%) is a recipe for it.

BTW I can see you from our local Beach here in St. Augustine. Tell your DW I like her sunbathing hat.
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Old 06-24-2018, 12:40 PM   #20
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I don't have anything to add to the financial advice you've been getting. Just wanted to say that you are doing everything two people can, to ensure success. I am also a big believer in marital compromise, where needed (one hopes that isn't many areas). Good luck!
Thanks, and I learned years ago to look at the big picture with finances. That big picture being the whole spectrum including and beyond only the financial return. I know that is foreign to many, especially those who seek that as a first priority. If one is at a stage in life where making "a" return is more important than making the "highest" return, then CD's may be a valid consideration. My wife showed me in today's newspaper where a local bank is offering 2.37% on a 1 year CD with $10k min.
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