Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Hello + Career Advice
Old 04-12-2006, 05:37 PM   #1
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 84
Hello + Career Advice

Hi everyone, great to be onboard.

I found this forum about 6 months ago going over retireearlyhomepage.com, what an eye-opening experience its been Retiring early has been one of my goals since I took my first job when I was 14 :P, my plan at the time was to ladder CDs and live off of the interest. You shared your knowledge of inflation and rising health costs, as well as historical market returns, so now I know better. I am currently setting up a portfolio with Vanguard (I will post my fund allocation later on, your advice will be very welcome.)

I am currently a student who will be graduating in December with a degree in Economics. There are several options I've been considering for a career.
  • Work for the gov the way I see it, this option would give me a lower stress 40hr/wk job with health care benefits during ER.
  • Analyst probably private, forecasting job, don't know exactly what it entails (long hours? High stress?) but the pay is decent.
  • CFA The pay is good but the hours and the stress seem horrendous. I don't mind studying for exams, I somehow excel at that.
  • Actuary This is the most appealing field to me, I like a challenge. The pay is also good. However, how easy is it to find a job? And how long is the work week?

If any of you have experience in any of the above fields, please let me know what you think. If you have alternate suggestions, I would be very interested as well.

Thank you for reading and spending all of your retired days posting on this forum
__________________

__________________
&quot;The one who creates does not wait for an opportunity, blaming circumstances, the fates, and the gods.&nbsp; He seizes opportunities or creates them with the magic wand of his will, effort, and searching discrimination&quot;<br />-Yogananda
veritasophia is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Re: Hello + Career Advice
Old 04-12-2006, 05:52 PM   #2
Moderator Emeritus
Rich_by_the_Bay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 8,827
Re: Hello + Career Advice

Welcome to the board.

I wouldn't pretend to give you career advice, but as a general observation it may not be wise to select a career based too heavily on its ER implications. After all, even under the best of circumstances, you will probably have to work in it for 20-30 years. You need to like it or at least not hate it . ER is more about discipline and living within your means than about salary alone.

I read somewhere once that being an actuary is one of the best jobs around - good pay, tolerable stress, always a need.

Since you are asking the questions you are asking I'd bet you will be retired by 45.
__________________

__________________
Rich
San Francisco Area
ESR'd March 2010. FIRE'd January 2011.

As if you didn't know..If the above message contains medical content, it's NOT intended as advice, and may not be accurate, applicable or sufficient. Don't rely on it for any purpose. Consult your own doctor for all medical advice.
Rich_by_the_Bay is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Hello + Career Advice
Old 04-12-2006, 06:26 PM   #3
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 84
Re: Hello + Career Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich_in_Tampa
I wouldn't pretend to give you career advice, but as a general observation it may not be wise to select a career based too heavily on its ER implications. After all, even under the best of circumstances, you will probably have to work in it for 20-30 years. You need to like it or at least not hate it . ER is more about discipline and living within your means than about salary alone.
Good point. I was an accounting student before switching to economics. Although the job market and pay is good for accountants, the classes make me want to pass out or puke.

What I'm trying to say is that I can vear toward fields that are more interesting to me in school because I have first hand knowledge from previous classes. I have very little knowledge of these different jobs so I'm trying to decide which would suit me better. As you said I better find something I enjoy somewhat if I'm going to be at it for 20-30 years

Quote:
Since you are asking the questions you are asking I'd bet you will be retired by 45.
I hope you're right!
__________________
&quot;The one who creates does not wait for an opportunity, blaming circumstances, the fates, and the gods.&nbsp; He seizes opportunities or creates them with the magic wand of his will, effort, and searching discrimination&quot;<br />-Yogananda
veritasophia is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Hello + Career Advice
Old 04-12-2006, 06:59 PM   #4
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 468
Re: Hello + Career Advice

welcome veritasophia,

Choosing a career when you're young and getting started is truly one of the more vexing problems in life. It's not easy trying to figure out what you'd be good at and what you'd enjoy based on limited work experience and taking classes.

As rich_in_tampa said, "I wouldn't pretend to give you career advice" but maybe I can make some suggestions that might set you in the right direction.

I would use whatever resources you can find at your school, maybe a placement department or career counseling center. See if they have catalogs of career and job descriptions. Also, see if they have tests to find your strongest interests and abilities for different careers. You can buy vocational aptitude-type tests and books, the most obvious one (and a pretty good one) "What color is your parachute?". A quick scan at amazon.com can get you up to speed on more titles.

I would suggest starting with the idea of pursuing an area that you enjoy and have some natural talent for. It's OK to keep track of careers that are projected to be the fastest growing and pay the most, etc. but don't lose sight of the fact that you'll be doing your job day in and day out for quite a while, so you certainly want to find something you can enjoy as much as possible.

Maybe these things are pretty obvious and you've already done them.

Good luck to you!
__________________
califdreamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Hello + Career Advice
Old 04-12-2006, 07:24 PM   #5
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Ed_The_Gypsy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: the City of Subdued Excitement
Posts: 5,242
Re: Hello + Career Advice

Hi, Veritasophia. Welcome to the party!

These are the facts:

1. Save at least 15% of your gross, no matter what !

2. Roths are a gift from God. Whatever else you do, max them out.

3. Learn how to invest on your own. The following site has stolen collected and organized some useful information and put it in one place: http://bobsfiles.home.att.net/retireCH.html There are many other good places to learn, too.

What follows is opinion:

Analyst: Could be a lot of fun. I know an extraordinary fellow who worked in that business.

Actuary: I was out of school a long time before I even knew what this was. For those comfortable with math and statistics and patterns in life, it sounds like a great job. I went into engineering, but this sounded really interesting to me.

A similar job in some ways is a demographer. Two of my friends have made good livings doing this for local governments and had a ball. (One is a trained urban planner and the other was a medically-retired former Army tank commander. They had in common a trait of enthusiasm for patterns in peoples' lives.) The feds use demographers, too.

As for working for the gov, I can't help you. I know folks who flourished there and others who hated it. Some kinds of work are only done by the government, so it all depends on you.

Good luck,

Ed
__________________
my bumpersticker:
"I am not in a hurry.
I am retired.
And I don't care how big your truck is."
Ed_The_Gypsy is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Hello + Career Advice
Old 04-12-2006, 08:13 PM   #6
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Helen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Portland
Posts: 1,289
Re: Hello + Career Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veritasophia
[*]Work for the gov the way I see it, this option would give me a lower stress 40hr/wk job with health care benefits during ER.


If any of you have experience in any of the above fields, please let me know what you think.* If you have alternate suggestions, I would be very interested as well.
Well, I've worked for the government for 13 years. The benefits are great, but in many agencies the pay isn't. I really think you should find something you enjoy doing, it's too long of a haul to work just for the pay and benefits.

For me, I will need 20 years of service and be at least age 56 before I can retire with health benefits.

My guess is that government benefits will decrease before you are able to collect. So I would not choose a career based on today's entitlements.

Best of luck,

-helen
__________________
Helen is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Hello + Career Advice
Old 04-12-2006, 11:28 PM   #7
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 84
Re: Hello + Career Advice

Thanks for your replies

Quote:
I would use whatever resources you can find at your school, maybe a placement department or career counseling center. See if they have catalogs of career and job descriptions. Also, see if they have tests to find your strongest interests and abilities for different careers. You can buy vocational aptitude-type tests and books, the most obvious one (and a pretty good one) "What color is your parachute?". A quick scan at amazon.com can get you up to speed on more titles.
Great idea. I’ve already read a lot of material on these different careers online. I will swing by the career counseling center and try to find good vocational aptitude-type tests and books, starting with “What color is your parachute?”. Thank you califdreamer

Ed, thanks for the link, I’m still exploring the site. I also appreciate your opinion of the different professions. I’ll have to look into the details of being a demographer as well, sounds pretty interesting.

Quote:
My guess is that government benefits will decrease before you are able to collect. So I would not choose a career based on today's entitlements.
I was afraid somebody would say that, thanks for the reality check Helen. It seems like the only “reliable” benefits come from your own portfolio.
__________________
&quot;The one who creates does not wait for an opportunity, blaming circumstances, the fates, and the gods.&nbsp; He seizes opportunities or creates them with the magic wand of his will, effort, and searching discrimination&quot;<br />-Yogananda
veritasophia is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Hello + Career Advice
Old 04-13-2006, 05:10 AM   #8
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 844
Re: Hello + Career Advice

>>My guess is that government benefits will decrease before you are able to collect.* So I would not choose a career based on today's entitlements.

Good advice. I second that opinion - in a lot of states things are going to have to change and the change will come down on new hires, not those close to collecting I would imagine.

My advice: Get a job you like, that pays well enough and is interesting...the whole time you are working try to pickup skills that will help you if/when you start your own business...then start a sideline business while you keep your day job, and as quickly as you can develop that sideline job into a FT venture.

Best time start start a business is when you have little debt, no mortgage payments, no responsibilities etc...i.e. nothing to lose. Trying to cut the cord when their 4 kids and a wife to feed, a house payment, car payments etc is a lot harder.


If you want to retire early, owning your own business is the best way to go...sure there are plenty of govt and union types that can cash out in the mid-50's, but start a successful business, even* a one person one(and save like crazy) and you could be done working in 20 years with hard work and a little bit of luck.

__________________
farmerEd is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Hello + Career Advice
Old 04-13-2006, 05:43 AM   #9
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,890
Re: Hello + Career Advice

Hmmm, let me see if I can help with the career advice bit. I graduated with a BA in economics and went on to be an analyst and am now a CFA.

- Gummint work: I can't comment from any personal experience. I think I would rather eat roofing nails than work for the gummint, though.
- Analyst: I assume you mean an economic/forecasting analyst. Not a bad job. Decent pay, can be longish hours. Be aware that if you want to continue in this career you will be severely limited if you don't pursue a master's degree in economics or statistics. I didn't have enough of a head for stats or econometrics, so I moved out of this career path.
- CFA: Not an easy designation to get. The good parts are that the work is interesting and the pay can be enrmous. The bad parts are the ong hours and the more volatile nature of employment (lots of jobs go away after a market crash). On the hours, put it this way: I put in 11 hour days routinely and I am ecstatic that I found a job where I am not expected to work weekends.
- Actuary: Hours will vary. You had better be good at statistics and taking tests. I have worked with a number of actuaries, and my general impression is that you would have to try pretty hard not to find work for any period of time, provided you don't pick the wrong specialty. Pay is pretty good, especially if you mecome an FSA and/or MAAA.
__________________
"Neither my companion or I carry firearms on our persons. We depend on the goodwill of our fellow man and the forbearance of reptiles."


- English Bob
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Hello + Career Advice
Old 04-13-2006, 05:53 AM   #10
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
donheff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 8,100
Re: Hello + Career Advice

Lots of good advice here. The bottom line is to try to know yourself and find work you enjoy. Suffering through 20-30 years just to ER is not a strategy it is a fallback. Also, keep in mind that you will change dramatically over the next decades - for example, having kids is trully a character building experience :-) It changes everything.

On the government side, I actually chose a Federal job (in 1974) in part because of my interest in ER, in part because of some Kennedy mystique thinking (Don't ask what....), and mostly because, like you, I ace out tests so the civil service entrance exam was an easy way to get a decent job. Like others have said, some of us flourished in government others were miserable. IMHO it has little to do with government and a lot to do with who we are. Those who are miserable would be miserable in other large organizations. They should have let their feet do their talking in the early years.

On the cut in benefits side, I don't buy it. The Feds are still futzing around now trying to implement personnel reforms my peers and I introduced in the early 90s. The big change to the retirement system was made in the 80s. The actuaries (yes, there are actuaries and just about anything else in government) set it up to largely pay for itself. There is not much reason to revist te matter soon. I suspect many states and local governments are in a similar position. Many adopted a social security plus defined benefit hybrid and took steps to make sure the funding adds up. Maybe some state and local folks out there can correct me if I am wrong about this.

Don
__________________
Every man is, or hopes to be, an Idler. -- Samuel Johnson
donheff is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Hello + Career Advice
Old 04-13-2006, 06:21 AM   #11
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 81
Re: Hello + Career Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veritasophia
Good point.* I was an accounting student before switching to economics.* Although the job market and pay is good for accountants, the classes make me want to pass out or puke.
OUCH!
__________________
roadkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Hello + Career Advice
Old 04-13-2006, 08:15 AM   #12
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 961
Re: Hello + Career Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veritasophia
[*]Actuary This is the most appealing field to me, I like a challenge.* The pay is also good.* However, how easy is it to find a job?* And how long is the work week?[/list]
If any of you have experience in any of the above fields, please let me know what you think.* If you have alternate suggestions, I would be very interested as well.

Thank you for reading and spending all of your retired days posting on this forum*
I have a BA in Economics and worked as an actuarial analyst for 2 years. I hope you really, really LOVE math.* The pay wasn't bad, but it wasn't extraordinary either. Basically, you're expected to work 40 hours a week and then study for the exams. Unless you pass exams, you most likely cannot get: good raises, promoted, etc.

Personally, I think the actuarial exams are used as weed out tools for the job [I got weeded out] just like thermodynamics may be for engineering, statistics/econometrics may be for economics, and organic chemistry for chemistry/biology.

The exams are tough, usually with pass rates between 30-50%. IIRC, you have to pass a certain number to get credentialed. Something like 5 to become an Associate of the Society of Actuaries [ASA] and around 8-10 to become a Fellow of the Society of Actuaries. The exams are given twice a year, some only once, and usually require b/w 100-250 hours of studying + practice tests. You basically don't have a life for 3-7 years, though this isn't real tough for most taking the tests, given the social awkwardness of most actuaries.*

If you're considering this route, try an exam or two in college. Here's the Society of Actuaries website. Also, the math dept at your school may have more information.

There's a rather bad actuary joke about CPA's:

Q: What does CPA stand for?
A: Can't Pass Actuarialexams

- Alec
__________________
ats5g is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Hello + Career Advice
Old 04-13-2006, 09:07 AM   #13
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,375
Re: Hello + Career Advice

Here's my general advice to my kids:

Whatever you do and wherever you go, if you don't like what you're doing every day and love who you're coming home to every night, it's hard to be happy.

I guess they took my advice. My daughter tried teaching (English in France and French in the US) and didn't find her bliss, got a masters in international relations, and now does contracts in the areas of democratization & governance and economic development in Africa (her specialities). She found a great love and is getting married next month. My son tried teaching (science) and likes it a lot--he loves science and reads heavy tomes in cosmology and biology for fun. Having a secure job and summers off plus feeling like he's making a difference in peoples' lives is more important to him than money, status, even retiring early. He's likes his space and has given up on roommates, even his friends--prefers living alone these days.

My ex works in insurance, and when he turned about 40 (long after we split so I'm not sure), he tried to get into actuarial work, but the company wouldn't help pay for exams etc. because he was "too old" (an actuarial conclusion, I suppose--how ironic).
__________________
You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find you get what you need.
astromeria is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Hello + Career Advice
Old 04-13-2006, 09:52 AM   #14
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Brat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 5,679
Re: Hello + Career Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by astromeria
My ex works in insurance, and when he turned about 40 (long after we split so I'm not sure), he tried to get into actuarial work, but the company wouldn't help pay for exams etc. because he was "too old" (an actuarial conclusion, I suppose--how ironic).
A former co-worker of mine, who has a degree in statistics, retired and studied on his own to pass the actuary exam.* He is now employed by the State of NV.* Age isn't a barrier if you are willing to pay your own way.*

A signing bonus, or a retention bonus, would have re-paid the exam costs.* In a word, don't let the jerks hold you back from your dreams.*

(spelling correction)
__________________
Duck bjorn.
Brat is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Hello + Career Advice
Old 04-13-2006, 03:08 PM   #15
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 84
Re: Hello + Career Advice

Wow you guys are great!

Thanks for your replies. As it stands, I've narrowed it down to the jobs that rely on mathematics. Financial analyst and actuary. I'm kind of a super-geek when it comes to math, I've been going through statistic and differential equation books in my spare time for fun :

I'll probably take the 1st actuarial exam before I graduate, and try to find a job in that field or something as an analyst.

Quote:
If you're considering this route [actuary], try an exam or two in college. Here's the Society of Actuaries website. Also, the math dept at your school may have more information.
Thanks for the info Alec. Do you know if there is a concentration of actuaries somewhere in the country? I live in Southern Cal. and I couldn't find to many positions in the area.
__________________
&quot;The one who creates does not wait for an opportunity, blaming circumstances, the fates, and the gods.&nbsp; He seizes opportunities or creates them with the magic wand of his will, effort, and searching discrimination&quot;<br />-Yogananda
veritasophia is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Hello + Career Advice
Old 04-14-2006, 08:37 AM   #16
Full time employment: Posting here.
kaudrey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Alexandria, Va
Posts: 855
Re: Hello + Career Advice

Hi,

I'm interested to know what job you have, brewer?

The CFA is a designation, not a job. I have my CFA charter and I work for the government!

The government can be great if you find a good fit. I do risk analysis and it is very interesting, in an agency that is going through somewhat of a crisis, which makes it more interesting.

There are some quirks for those of us who want to FIRE from the gov't. I'll have 31 years if I stay until 52, which is my planned retirement age. At that point, I can defer my pension until 57 (at a 30% cut) or more likely I'll defer it to 62 (or is it 60, I've read conflicting info there) without penalty. However, if I don't stay until 57, I will NOT be able to keep the gov't health insurance, which is a BIG issue.

So, I have to factor in the health care costs of bailing early.

I ramble, sorry. It is great that you are starting to think about this at a young age. Good luck finding your dream job!

Karen

__________________
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I - I took the one less travelled by...
kaudrey is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Hello + Career Advice
Old 04-14-2006, 11:53 AM   #17
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,890
Re: Hello + Career Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veritasophia
Wow you guys are great!*

Thanks for your replies.* As it stands, I've narrowed it down to the jobs that rely on mathematics.* Financial analyst and actuary.* I'm kind of a super-geek when it comes to math, I've been going through statistic and differential equation books in my spare time for fun :

I'll probably take the 1st actuarial exam before I graduate, and try to find a job in that field or something as an analyst.

Thanks for the info Alec.* Do you know if there is a concentration of actuaries somewhere in the country?* I live in Southern Cal. and I couldn't find to many positions in the area.
Sounds like actuarial stuff is a good fit for you, then. No doubt the SOA can offer you more guidance than I, but actuaries are heavily in demand at insurance companies and actuarial consulting companies (Towers Perrin, etc.). The consultants have offices here and there. Insurance companies, well, throw a rock, at least in some places. I think pension actuaries are in demand as well, but I would be wary of starting my way in that field simply because the days of the DB pension are numbered.
__________________
"Neither my companion or I carry firearms on our persons. We depend on the goodwill of our fellow man and the forbearance of reptiles."


- English Bob
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Hello + Career Advice
Old 04-14-2006, 11:54 AM   #18
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,890
Re: Hello + Career Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaudrey
Hi,

I'm interested to know what job you have, brewer?*

The CFA is a designation, not a job.* I have my CFA charter and I work for the government!*

Yes, I know the CFA is a designation rather than a job. OP seems to have used it as equivalent to an investment analyst, which is how I tend to think of it.

I'm an analyst for a hedge fund.
__________________
"Neither my companion or I carry firearms on our persons. We depend on the goodwill of our fellow man and the forbearance of reptiles."


- English Bob
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Hello + Career Advice
Old 04-14-2006, 11:56 AM   #19
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
cute fuzzy bunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Losing my whump
Posts: 22,697
Re: Hello + Career Advice

Once you master the CFA, you have a shot at the CFB...
__________________
Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
cute fuzzy bunny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Hello + Career Advice
Old 04-14-2006, 12:03 PM   #20
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,890
Re: Hello + Career Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
Once you master the CFA, you have a shot at the CFB...
That's Laurence you are thinking of...
__________________

__________________
"Neither my companion or I carry firearms on our persons. We depend on the goodwill of our fellow man and the forbearance of reptiles."


- English Bob
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
update on parents and need $ advice on several issues WM FIRE and Money 17 06-27-2007 06:55 PM
Financial Advice for Friends and Family - How to handle it? chinaco FIRE and Money 22 03-19-2007 01:06 PM
I need some advice on the best way to stick my pole... Andre1969 Other topics 10 03-23-2006 01:31 PM
Malakito here / career advice malakito Hi, I am... 12 07-16-2004 01:18 PM
Continuing Education During Career BigMoneyJim Young Dreamers 7 04-08-2004 04:50 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:55 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.