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Old 07-31-2008, 03:39 PM   #61
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CaseInPoint,
...Have you ever considered the possibility that some people on here with FAR less money than you might be living a happier life than you are? Perhaps they even spend less time worrying about money than you do? Which one of you would be the richer person?
Jeff,

I don't believe that money determines happiness. And, I don't measure my own success or that of others in financial terms. However, lack of financial security almost always has a negative effect on people -- especially in retirement.

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Los Angeles California may be your idea of the center of the universe but it would rank very low on my list of places to live. You have mentioned "poverty" a couple times here. It seems to me that poverty is a term that is pretty difficult to set an exact number to. The gubmint has some number that they consider the poverty level of income but it does not take into account whether someone has a paid off mortgage or is making mortgage payments or paying rent. I would imagine that a retired couple living below the federal poverty level with a paid for house in some parts of the country could be living a pretty nice life
.
LA is where I currently live. I've also lived in NY and FL, so LA isn't the center of the universe for me. You're right about there being a different cost of living in other places, and I don't consider the government's definition to be my definition of poverty.

I realize that fewer people would be offended if I said "creative and fashionable extreme frugality." I've come to learn that those are the preferred code-words. And, truthfully, I don't mean to offend anybody in any event (at least not until they deserve it. ).

I do think that the concepts I mention are on the minds of many newer readers of this forum who want to better understand FIRE.

Quote:
I would guess that CFB would not want to trade the time he gets to spend with his youngster for all the money you could ever make. To each his own.
You're right that everyone gets to set their own priorities. I don't want to further criticize CFB, because after he took a shot at me, I think I've made my point already. (I actually think he's basically a nice guy and I enjoy reading many of his posts).

Money is not nearly as important as family. My own life is not centered around money, actually. But I do know that for me, to FIRE with financial stress would not be acceptable. I've worked and saved for many years and paid my dues to make sure that doesn't happen.
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Old 07-31-2008, 03:48 PM   #62
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I actually think he's basically a nice guy
Wrong again!!!
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Old 07-31-2008, 03:59 PM   #63
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Damn I wish my property taxes were as low as yours--mine near Chicago are more than 4 times that (and others here pay even more).
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Old 07-31-2008, 04:04 PM   #64
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Moemg,
...Pretty nice view for a retired nurse. I am having a pretty rough time making nursing career decisions. I usually work one shift a week but am taking the summer off and considering not going back. That PIC does not make the decision any easier.
Jeff

Thanks ,that view is courtesy of a bear market , a stock tip and a anxious seller in 2001 .
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Old 07-31-2008, 04:04 PM   #65
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Dang ya beat me to it.

Dear CIP. You're not wrong because I live a fairly pleasing upper middle class lifestyle. You're wrong because many of my fellow forumites live as well or better than I do.

Envy and jealousy coupled with a lack of guts or intelligence to get off the hamster wheel. How else to explain someone who keeps moaning about the 'fact' that while 'many' have managed to do it, that its only because they're doing so by living in poverty...when the vast majority of the available evidence suggests otherwise?

I suspect we'll shortly see some sort of thread about how our lives are immoral, unpatriotic, or fattening.

In closing I dont think you've made enough of a case yet to have risen to the level of being merely 'wrong'. Keep at it though, you may get there.

You are a bit bothersome and somewhat annoying though, so I'm pleased to put you on my 'ignore' list. Not the fastest someone has gotten there, nor the anywhere near the most irritating. So again you've underperformed.
In 2007, my pension was just under $30K; I spent about $24K (including taxes, med ins, and $2K charity) (and I bought a car for ~10K after my 18 y o vehicle wore out) (the money for the car was from the MMA for just such a need).

I have yet to figure out what I am deprived of.
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Old 07-31-2008, 04:43 PM   #66
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We look across the bay to Longboat Key and Holmes Beach .
Waterfront with boatdock! I am envious. I have been looking for something like that in the Puget Sound, and hoping for the RE market to crash further. I had to go on googleearth to see where Holmes Beach is.

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Thanks ,that view is courtesy of a bear market , a stock tip and a anxious seller in 2001 .
What? A market timer. Look, everybody. A MARKET TIMER.
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Old 07-31-2008, 05:04 PM   #67
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I have yet to figure out what I am deprived of.
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I have large amounts of zucchini and cucumbers. Is there away to preserve/store cucumbers other than pickling (i.e.:cooking or freezing)?
You are deprived of a way to preserve your cucumbers without using brine.

Seriously, the less desire one has of material things, the easier it is to find happiness. I would be happier if I stopped dreaming of a waterfront home in the Puget Sound, and just be grateful of my desert home with "low utility" bills.

Maybe my wife was right after all about us just staying here.
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Old 07-31-2008, 07:08 PM   #68
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I am somewhat perplexed how so many of you can live on what you do…in San Diego, the cost of living is out of control. We spend about $6,000 per month for expenses and that does not include traveling, which we have decided to cut out altogether, does not include a car payment or a housekeeper. I realize that we could easily cut down our expenses by about $1,000/mo when I retire, but that’s still $5,000 per month, or about $2,500-$3,000 for me (yes, I spend more than my partner).
Welcome to the board, Susan.

ER is a choice, and it's not rocket science. If you want to stop working then you have to manage your finances. If you're not willing to adapt your lifestyle to your current finances then you need to go get bigger finances. For most people that usually involves working longer or saving more money. If you're not willing to do those, either, then you're having a tough time making choices.

A significant number of ERs made tough choices because work was ruining their morale and/or their health. Others have chosen to follow Bob Clyatt's "Work Less, Live More" philosophy. As another poster has mentioned, still others find that their time is worth more than the pursuit of money. They're not keeping score with reference to the poverty line but rather with their quality of life.

One person's "poverty" is another person's values. Spouse and I live on Oahu in a house we bought eight years ago, we're raising a kid, we're donating to charity, and we do pretty much what we want. We spend money on the things that have value to us, but the things we value don't cost a lot of money and some days we feel as if we can't spend it fast enough. We could drive his & hers Ferraris, too, but to us that has much more hassle than value. It gives me pleasure to spend money for the things that bring me value, and otherwise I'd feel that I was wasting assets & resources.

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$400 - Cash for misc stuff (sometimes lower, sometimes higher)
$150 - hair
$1000 - entertainment/clothing/gifts/other (sometimes lower, sometimes higher) for a total of
$6,029 per month
These three lines appear to be a quarter of your spending. You've mentioned that you may bring them down in ER, but you have to decide if your current feelings of burnout are worth the expense. If you can't reconcile the amount of work you have to do with the privilege of spending $400/month on "misc", then you're not psychologically ready to solve your ER spreadsheet. When you're ready to ER, this $1500/month won't be an obstacle.

You've mentioned that in ER you'll do more advance planning and less last-minute crisis buying. You'll have far more time (and energy, and interest) in researching your lifestyle and your expenses to choose the things that bring you value. You'd be amazed how much entertainment is available in the middle of a Tuesday morning or at other off-peak hours, and you'll have time to find it. We lived in Kensington for three years and we know you'll be able to find it within your metropolitan area.

The Kaderlis are laughing their assets off regarding your travel comments. Traveling on a work schedule involves expensive transportation, resort lodging, and in general paying a lot of money to others to handle the details of daily life to free up your time for entertainment. In ER you can take advantage of reduced airfare, stay "local" in longer-term apartments, and generally blend with the culture instead of going out to watch it like a zoo tour. Take a look at their articles or download their book and see if that's the kind of travel that brings value to you.
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Old 07-31-2008, 09:23 PM   #69
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The only part that annoyed me was the implication that the majority of people on this site chose to bail out on jobs they couldnt perform any more to accept a life near the poverty line.

Thats a huge disincentive to the people who choose to trade off money for actual life. And its ridiculously untrue and not the case...in point...

The truth is that the very vast majority of people on this site have very good life styles and dont have to make any lousy tradeoffs.

Heres some good news kiddies...if you have managed to put away seven figures and you're pondering options that include not showing up for work everyday, its doable. You might not get maid service, but that has a whole lot of inherent problems... :
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Old 07-31-2008, 09:32 PM   #70
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Also to Susan, the OP--is there a savings component in your lifestyle? From your wording that you will be receiving income of $40,000, I figured that was a pension along with the insurance. You might try living below your means and saving the excess toward a travel fund, before you actually retire.

I think the majority of people who post here and are already retired have more than $6,000/month in income, by the way, whether or not they choose to spend it. But whether they do or they don't have a certain level of income doesn't affect their happiness. One lesson I finally learned is that there are people who have a lot more money than I do and goshdang it, they're happier than me too (for reasons unrelated to their $$).
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Old 08-01-2008, 12:37 AM   #71
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Thats a huge disincentive to the people who choose to trade off money for actual life. And its ridiculously untrue and not the case...in point...
Oh what the heck, you've been a good boy and that picture was hilarious, so here you go:

Ding Ding-a DING!
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Old 08-01-2008, 08:09 AM   #72
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Have another one then!
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Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
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Old 08-01-2008, 08:29 AM   #73
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Old 08-01-2008, 10:01 AM   #74
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The only part that annoyed me was the implication that the majority of people on this site chose to bail out on jobs they couldnt perform any more to accept a life near the poverty line.

Thats a huge disincentive to the people who choose to trade off money for actual life. And its ridiculously untrue and not the case
Exactly.

MONEY - - the more we have, the less most of us value or need any additional money.

To a minimum wage person, what is $10K worth? To someone with $5 million in Vanguard, what is $10K worth? Vastly different, IMO.

At some point, we are ready to say, "I have more than enough. I choose to buy TIME with at least some of my money, and only spend part of it on still more things, travel, "miscellaneous", and so on.

Once I qualify for lifetime medical at the end of next year, I know I will have more than enough to buy every thing (and experience) that I will ever want. I would be a fool not to retire, given that I no longer look forward to work each day with happy anticipation.

Susan has every right to determine how much money is enough for her, and how much she values time as opposed to the other things money can buy. It is her life. Maybe she just isn't ready for ER quite yet. But also she should realize that many here are perfectly happy with our standard of living and not exactly suffering or destitute!
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Old 08-01-2008, 11:01 AM   #75
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Here is a picture of my poverty stricken life . I know it's pretty sad but I'm making do !
is the swimming pool gated like that to prevent wandering alligators? ha, that's funny!
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Old 08-01-2008, 11:12 AM   #76
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is the swimming pool gated like that to prevent wandering alligators? ha, that's funny!
This week a boy swimming in a swimming hole (not a pool) in Slidell, Louisiana (suburb of New Orleans) had his arm entirely bitten off by an 11-foot alligator, and also suffered severe bite injuries to his torso.

St. Tammany alligator threat not going away- NOLA.com

They retrieved the arm from the belly of the alligator but re-attachment efforts failed. I can't imagine that the arm was in very good shape so maybe that is why. News about the boy's condition is limited since the parents desire to keep that private, but rumor has it that he may not be doing well.
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Old 08-01-2008, 11:30 AM   #77
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Nords, thanks for your comments and, as alway, you are very articulate.

As I have worked hard all of my life, never relying on anyone to support me, I now make a decent living and when traveling, I do go "first class". However, that was because I so exhausted from work and needed others to take care of everything. After reading all of these Forum comments, I know that I need to

1. When I do retire, it's going to be on my own terms.
2. Stay healthy.
3. Financial planning is extremely important; as I have done this in my professional life and I am currently do it for both SO and me, I will continue to do it retirement, even though my SO will probably retire in about 7 years.
4. My SO and I both want to stay in San Diego in the same house.
5. The biggest desire I have in retirement is to get to know myself again; get in tuned with my body...I have been out of sinc for a long time.
6. Volunteer
7. Stop buying stuff I don't need.
8. Cook more instead of going out to eat because it was convenient.
9. Smile/laugh
10. Enjoy what I do have.

Susan
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Old 08-01-2008, 11:52 AM   #78
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Exactly.

MONEY - - the more we have, the less most of us value or need any additional money.

To a minimum wage person, what is $10K worth? To someone with $5 million in Vanguard, what is $10K worth? Vastly different, IMO.

At some point, we are ready to say, "I have more than enough. I choose to buy TIME with at least some of my money, and only spend part of it on still more things, travel, "miscellaneous", and so on.

Once I qualify for lifetime medical at the end of next year, I know I will have more than enough to buy every thing (and experience) that I will ever want. I would be a fool not to retire, given that I no longer look forward to work each day with happy anticipation.


Susan has every right to determine how much money is enough for her, and how much she values time as opposed to the other things money can buy. It is her life. Maybe she just isn't ready for ER quite yet. But also she should realize that many here are perfectly happy with our standard of living and not exactly suffering or destitute!
Economics: sell your time to get money to buy stuff.

I have everything I need and most of what I want.

I have time:

Days and years and barrels and acrefeet and savannas and oceans of time.

http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/showpost.php?p=537422&postcount=28

The greatest treasure of all.
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Old 08-01-2008, 12:06 PM   #79
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Nords, thanks for your comments and, as alway, you are very articulate.

As I have worked hard all of my life, never relying on anyone to support me, I now make a decent living and when traveling, I do go "first class". However, that was because I so exhausted from work and needed others to take care of everything. After reading all of these Forum comments, I know that I need to

1. When I do retire, it's going to be on my own terms.
2. Stay healthy.
3. Financial planning is extremely important; as I have done this in my professional life and I am currently do it for both SO and me, I will continue to do it retirement, even though my SO will probably retire in about 7 years.
4. My SO and I both want to stay in San Diego in the same house.
5. The biggest desire I have in retirement is to get to know myself again; get in tuned with my body...I have been out of sinc for a long time.
6. Volunteer
7. Stop buying stuff I don't need.
8. Cook more instead of going out to eat because it was convenient.
9. Smile/laugh
10. Enjoy what I do have.

Susan
This was one of the biggest surprises of retirement and time.

http://www.early-retirement.org/foru...ing-29593.html
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Old 08-01-2008, 01:04 PM   #80
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Susan,

One common train of thought for retirement is to retire with out a mortgage.

A great deal of your issues with thinking how you could ever retire early is assuming you will always be spending $6k a month (in today's $'s) forever.

If you removed your mortgage and got 2 reliable cars (as many FIRE's do), I think you would find that retiring early would be much easier.

You are trying to gauge how others retire when those of us pursuing early retirement do not intend to have items like a mortgage or expensive cars.

As such I think you are comparing apples to oranges.

The choices you have made are not wrong, but simply do not necc match up with a normal look at early retirement. Specifically having a mortgage that won't be done until you are almost 80 years old.

Maldini
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