Hi Kids

[Nords]

You'll get one heckuva practical financial education by volunteering at the local SBA office and observing the financial issues brought through the doors.

[Ponks]

Originally Posted by justin

Well... If you have no aversion to being immoral for a while, Edward Jones and the like are always accepting applications.

Another option with Edward Jones would be to intern at a local office or graduate and work full-time at a local growing Edward Jones office. Banks are also looking for "investment advisors" to sell insurance, annuities and mutual funds. If you can't start there, work your way up.

Ask a local bank manager/asst manager to lunch to discuss how their branch operates and how you might be able to get involved with their organization.

Hey Justin,

I've thought about Edward Jones for quite some time, but I'm not sure I would like to "sell" someone something, I would rather "help" them make smart decisions. My mom is a teacher at the local college in the business department (accounting) and I took an Intro to Business class with one of her coworkers and him and I become pretty good friends. He used to work for Edward Jones and manage $10m+ which I thought was very interesting. He recommended that I look for some work and then look into getting my CFA. A good buddy of mine from home has an uncle that used to work with Edward Jones and just recently in the past year opened up his own place. I've been in emails with him, although not that much lately, and I may have a chance to work with him which would be awesome, although it is halfway across the country.

Asking a local bank manager to lunch sounds like a great idea! Even if it doesn't lead to anything in the immediate future I could make a new contact and I would surely learn something in the process.

John

[Ponks]

Originally Posted by Nords

You'll get one heckuva practical financial education by volunteering at the local SBA office and observing the financial issues brought through the doors.

This sounds like a really good idea as well. I would have no problem doing volunteer work as it would look really good on a resume and the knowledge gained could be quite extensive. Geesh, so many options to consider now, I'm not sure if posting here has helped me or not! I'm also pretty interested in real estate, stress management/human resources, teaching, and children as well and have some options there as well.

John

[Ponks]

Originally Posted by astromeria

I can't help you with breaking into business, but I can see you'll have no problem with eventual early retirement: you're a prodigious accumulator of wealth, you already have a hobby, you understand about taking 3-4% of your money off the table, and you have experience answering the uncomfortable question: whaddya do all day!

Hi Astromeria,

Thanks for the kind words! I am sure that I will have no problem with retirement as well, but obviously the sooner the better. I would also like to take care of my parents with any needs they may have as they get older and my future wife's parents as well if needed.

John

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Ponks

While I am still in the top percentile of players, it's just not as profitable as it once was; the industry will surely decline.

I don't know a single thing about professional poker players. So if you don't mind, I have a few questions.

1) What makes a person a professional poker player?

2) What happens when 2 or more professionals meet for a game, who loses? Would the loser still be professional?

3) Is it customary for a professional to introduce himself before playing with strangers? "Hi, I'm Jack, and I'm a professional poker player. May I play?"

Thanks

[Ponks]

Originally Posted by Sam

I don't know a single thing about professional poker players. So if you don't mind, I have a few questions.

1) What makes a person a professional poker player?

Well, different people have different definitions on this subject, I don't think there is a common definition. The one that I accept and use is that poker is the professionals primary source of income. Other definitions that others accept is a reliance on the income from poker for living expenses, while others say playing 20+ hours a week (although this is a very poor definition)

2) What happens when 2 or more professionals meet for a game, who loses? Would the loser still be professional?

I think that you are using the word professional here in the wrong sense. If there are 2 or more professionals or good players at a full table then everyone's expectation/winrate goes down or poor players lossrate increases further to the negative. A player that has a very modest winrate will increase to a losing winrate if enough good players join the game. It's mainly just a skill level thing. You could have a table of 10 amazing players, none of which are professionals or all of which are professionals, and have no one have a postive winrate because of the rake. If two players with the same skill level (although this would be incredibly rare) play against eachother then in the short term the luckiest one will win and in the long run and the casino wins as they have the same expectation and just grind eachother down passing money back and forth as the casino slowly takes it

3) Is it customary for a professional to introduce himself before playing with strangers? "Hi, I'm Jack, and I'm a professional poker player. May I play?"

Haha, well, it's not customary. As a professional myself, I would prefer that no one knows that I am paying my rent with their money. Typically only professionals can tell if other players are professionals based on plays that the professional makes. Nearly all recreational gamblers don't pay enough attention to the plays that other players make in order to tell a mediocre player from a professional from a good player. I've been called the worst player in the world many times before.

The difference between a good player and a professional is that a professional must be a good player while a good player is not necessarily a professional.

EDIT- Also, when discussing winrate or lossrates, it is important to understand that winrates don't converge until many many hands have been played. For example my winrate is about 2 Big Bets Per 100 Hands in your average midstakes game with a standard deviation of about 17 Big Bets Per 100 Hands. As you can imagine it can take over 100,000 hands in order to get an accurate representation of your winrate.

Hope that helps.

John

EDIT- Also edited for clarity.

[Sam]

Thanks for the reply.

So you made 175K part time in 2.5 years, while going full time to college. That's around 70K a year. If you were to continue this career full time (now that you are out of college), you could easily bring in 100K or more a year. My question, again, is why are you looking for a job? You already have one that you're good at, one that you enjoy.

Gambling is not limited to the USA. It's everywhere, so the recent bill does not make any difference, does it?

You mention and emphasize skill level, but say nothing about luck. In your professional opinion, what percentage do you attribute to luck?

[Ponks]

Originally Posted by Sam

So you made 175K part time in 2.5 years, while going full time to college. That's around 70K a year. If you were to continue this career full time (now that you are out of college), you could easily bring in 100K or more a year. My question, again, is why are you looking for a job? You already have one that you're good at, one that you enjoy.

Well, 175k is what I have invested right now, I have paid expenses throughout these 2.5 years as well. I would say that 100k in a year will be a very difficult and an extremely stressful task considering the current state of the games. Playing poker is really not that easy, it's very hard to play your best poker day in a day out for more then 2-4 hours a day. Every decision that you make is of critical importance. Try to keep your mind straight after losing $500 in a hand, $3,000 in a day, $10,000 in a week. It eats you up inside and makes you question your abilities. You have to constantly be studying the game and be able to adapt to different situations and different styles of players. I have learned a great deal about managing stress from poker, but I am anxious to move on. There are other things that I enjoy doing more then poker.

Gambling is not limited to the USA. It's everywhere, so the recent bill does not make any difference, does it?

Well, sure it does. 80% of the playing force is gone, and the best site to play at is no longer open to American customers anymore. Game selection has gone down the tube.

You mention and emphasize skill level, but say nothing about luck. In your professional opinion, what percentage do you attribute to luck?

This question depends entirely on the time frame that we are talking about. If we are talking about 1 hand were both players go allin before any cards are seen, it is 100% luck as you have no control over when you get your money in and with what odds and both players are 50/50 to win. Over the course of 250,000 hands there is very little luck as over the course of 250,000 hands you'll have an incredible amount of opportunities to get your money in with incredible odds. In my experiences I strived to play approximately 30,000 hands a month and over the course of playing professionally I have not had a losing month, although some months were very close.

EDIT- There is a common phrase among professionals which is "Poker is an hard way to make an easy living." Also, it's not like I am going to completely quit playing poker altogether. The games during the afternoon are much more difficult because there are less recreational players during the afternoon so I will be able to play after work when the games are better. I will also plan to drop down in stakes a little and still likely will be able to make atleast $1-3k a month from poker.

John

[Sam]

Interesting. Thanks.

[sgeeeee]

Originally Posted by Ponks

. . . In my experiences I strived to play approximately 30,000 hands a month and over the course of playing professionally I have not had a losing month, although some months were very close. . .

Is this correct? 1000 hands a day? And you were doing this part-time? If each hand took 30 seconds, you would spend over 8 hours a day.

[Ponks]

Originally Posted by sgeeeee

Is this correct? 1000 hands a day? And you were doing this part-time? If each hand took 30 seconds, you would spend over 8 hours a day.

Well, I play anywhere from 4-6 tables at the same time. You can get approximately 90 hands/per/table playing at 6-max limit tables. So, it's about 2.5 hours a day.

John

[astromeria]

I am speechless with amazement!

I suggest you find a field where your phenomenal memory and ability to make quick decisions under stress would be an advantage. Air Force test pilot? trial lawyer? salesman? short-order cook? NYSE pit trader? crocodile hunter? snake charmer? politician?!

[Ponks]

Originally Posted by astromeria

I am speechless with amazement!

I suggest you find a field where your phenomenal memory and ability to make quick decisions under stress would be an advantage. Air Force test pilot? trial lawyer? salesman? short-order cook? NYSE pit trader? crocodile hunter? snake charmer? politician?!

LOL, well it's not really that hard. Most of the time it's just fold, fold, fold. I used to play a lot of internet computer games so I have very fast hand speed which helps out as well. Most of the time you're able to play a hand straight through with minimal or no thinking on other tables to effect your concentration on the main table. There are many other poker players I know that do the same thing. I've actually played as many as 12 tables at once without even coming close to missing a turn on a table. I'm sure with time all of you here could do it as well. I have read some books on daytrading and am interested in it, although it seems pretty hard to get started and would also be a huge time committment to dedicate myself to that. My roommate at school worked at the chicago board of trade and I have also thought about getting into that as the guy who mentored him has been there for 20 years abouts and he would be willing to work with me.

Other then that, sign me up to be the next crocodile hunter

John

[sgeeeee]

Originally Posted by Ponks

Well, I play anywhere from 4-6 tables at the same time. You can get approximately 90 hands/per/table playing at 6-max limit tables. So, it's about 2.5 hours a day.

John

That still has to work out to less than 1 minute per hand. Sounds more like a video game than poker.

I would not reccommend mentioning this practice to potential employers for a number of reasons. Many employers might question the quality of your formal degree and your dedication to learning if they found out you played a thousand hands of poker every day while going to school. They might also worry that you have a gambling problem. If they believe you really made $170k in 2.5 years doing this, they would probably worry that the salary they would offer you might not keep you interested in your job. Every employer is different, but I know how the companies I used to work for would view this.

I don't know too many people with a BA in psychology who would come out of school and make the kind of money you mention. In fact, I know several who couldn't find work at all. Maybe the bachelor's liberal arts graduate today experiences a different reality than when I was in college, but I can't help but think you may be dissappointed is the job market available to you based on your formal education. You may be better off as an entrepenuer. I wish you good luck.

[Nords]

Originally Posted by Ponks

I have read some books on daytrading and am interested in it, although it seems pretty hard to get started and would also be a huge time committment to dedicate myself to that. My roommate at school worked at the chicago board of trade and I have also thought about getting into that as the guy who mentored him has been there for 20 years abouts and he would be willing to work with me.

The two best books I've read about living the daytrader life are "How I Trade For A Living" by Gary Smith (same name as the celebrity, different guy) and Marcel Link's "High Probability Trading". Gary's description of his "typical day" in particular will make you wonder whether it's better to get a real life.

Originally Posted by sgeeeee

That still has to work out to less than 1 minute per hand. Sounds more like a video game than poker.
I would not reccommend mentioning this practice to potential employers for a number of reasons. Many employers might question the quality of your formal degree and your dedication to learning if they found out you played a thousand hands of poker every day while going to school. They might also worry that you have a gambling problem. If they believe you really made $170k in 2.5 years doing this, they would probably worry that the salary they would offer you might not keep you interested in your job. Every employer is different, but I know how the companies I used to work for would view this.

Why, SG, it sounds like you're jealous!

Brokerage houses and Silicon Valley video startups would eat this stuff up during an interview. They want those non-linear out-of-the-box thinkers...

[sgeeeee]

Originally Posted by Nords

. . . Why, SG, it sounds like you're jealous!

Growing skeptical maybe, but not jealous at all. Heck, I don't even play poker. I never enjoyed it.

Brokerage houses and Silicon Valley video startups would eat this stuff up during an interview. They want those non-linear out-of-the-box thinkers...

That may be. I would be surprised if that were really true, but I have no experience with hiring practices of brokerage houses and Silicon Valley video startups. I have worked and consulted for start-ups and large companies in the wireless area.

[Ponks]

Originally Posted by sgeeeee

That still has to work out to less than 1 minute per hand. Sounds more like a video game than poker.

Yes, it's about 90 hands/hour/table, mistyped a little in my previous response. It's about 6 hands per minute while playing 4 tables, and I fold approximately 30% of the hands at a 6 person table without even seeing the flop.

I would not reccommend mentioning this practice to potential employers for a number of reasons. Many employers might question the quality of your formal degree and your dedication to learning if they found out you played a thousand hands of poker every day while going to school. They might also worry that you have a gambling problem. If they believe you really made $170k in 2.5 years doing this, they would probably worry that the salary they would offer you might not keep you interested in your job. Every employer is different, but I know how the companies I used to work for would view this.

I wasn't planning on telling any employers about this unless it was a trading type job at a company that valued the skills of poker players.

I don't know too many people with a BA in psychology who would come out of school and make the kind of money you mention. In fact, I know several who couldn't find work at all. Maybe the bachelor's liberal arts graduate today experiences a different reality than when I was in college, but I can't help but think you may be dissappointed is the job market available to you based on your formal education. You may be better off as an entrepenuer. I wish you good luck.

I'm not sure where I type that my expectations are high in terms of salary or even being able to find a job! I certainly don't expect to make anything near what I was making in poker. Not being worried about being able to find a job right away does not translate into expecting to find a job right away. In my original post I even typed that students in the school of business have many advantages over a student in liberal arts & sciences. I would be extremely happy making 40k/year starting out of college especially if it was a job that I enjoyed or would help lead to a job that I enjoyed.

John

[Ponks]

Originally Posted by Nords

The two best books I've read about living the daytrader life are "How I Trade For A Living" by Gary Smith (same name as the celebrity, different guy) and Marcel Link's "High Probability Trading". Gary's description of his "typical day" in particular will make you wonder whether it's better to get a real life.
Why, SG, it sounds like you're jealous!

Brokerage houses and Silicon Valley video startups would eat this stuff up during an interview. They want those non-linear out-of-the-box thinkers...

Hey Nords,

Thanks for the book recommendations, I'm always interested in reading quality books and always enjoy a good recommendation. So far I have read "Tools and Tactics for the Master Day Trader" by Oliver Velez & Greg Carpa and I've started "The Master Swing Trader" by Alan S. Farley, although I haven't finished this one yet, too many other books that I want to read! These books were both recommended to me by other poker players that also day-trade during the day. Last year I had ambitions of day-trading during the morning/afternoon while the poker games were poor and then playing poker at night. Right now though, it will take quite some time to accumulate $50k that I would require myself to have in order to get into day-trading. Have you read either of these books above? What did you think? Have you day traded at all? If so, what did you think? How steep is the learning curve?

John