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Old 08-17-2010, 04:24 PM   #41
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I quit at 43, a couple of years ago. I was financially ready at 43, but probably not emotionally ready in retrospect, so for me 43 was a little early I guess. None of my peers are retired, and being solo most of the day has been a big adjustment. I'm still glad I got out of the car business when I did, but I think I may need to get back into something eventually that gets me involved and more productive.

But I gotta tell you, I sure like the 3 months of the year hanging out with the entire family, and it will be hard to give up the free time the rest of the year, so I'm just not really sure what to do.

No rush, but I'm kind of interested starting something the kids can get involved in that will teach them the value of hard work-- I worry a little about what the kids think about seeing me retired and not doing much. I remind them that I was able to do this because I worked my butt off in the car business for almost 20 years and saved much of what I earned, but you know, monkey see--monkey do.

Rambling again..............
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Old 08-17-2010, 05:44 PM   #42
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I quit at 43, a couple of years ago...

No rush, but I'm kind of interested starting something the kids can get involved in that will teach them the value of hard work-- I worry a little about what the kids think about seeing me retired and not doing much. I remind them that I was able to do this because I worked my butt off in the car business for almost 20 years and saved much of what I earned, but you know, monkey see--monkey do...
Or they might think "Surely Dad worked hard, but there are plenty of others who also work hard. Dad must be lucky. Now, why won't he share with us some of his lucky loots?"

All kidding aside, you are correct that having children to raise makes a difference.
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Old 08-17-2010, 05:59 PM   #43
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HsiaoChu - I disagree with your opinion about working for a certain period of time. But, I am curious as to how you would define 'work' for the purposes of saying that someone should put in a certain amout of time. Specificially, would you consider work to be an activity that:
(1) produces earned income
(2) contributes to society
(3) is something along the lines occupying a person to build character or something like that

I could make compelling arguments that in many instances early retirement will produce some or all of these things more so than what society calls a 'job'.
I'm just curious as to the thought process behind this type of opinion.
I have no definition of work that I would require everyone to have. Work is different for everyone. Some people only consider work something that you do that is hard labor, others its only if you do it 16 hours a day(like my Dad), or others only if you don't like it, or me, that you have to have done it for a long period of time OR you can't be called retired from it.

In my thinking, I'm only defining work as it coinsides with reitrement. Someone who never did something conistently for a long period of time cannot then be retired from it.

Let me give you a crazy example. I believe that it is possible for a contract killer to retire. Say this dude or dudette did this job/career methodically killing maybe 20 people a year, with all the set up and action and get away necessary to make all the arrangements, along with ample vacation time. S/he could be retired. But if they only did the job for 10 years, then they are not retired, not enough duration, they are just on vacation. If they became a school teacher after it then they did indeed retire from contract killing because they have a new job.

Its all about duration of the activity even several activities..... IN MY OPINION, maybe crazy but not nonsense for me, just my opinion. However a cogent discussion about the weak points in my argument could change my opinion. But...... insults will never do it.

HC
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Old 08-17-2010, 06:24 PM   #44
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I have no definition of work that I would require everyone to have. Work is different for everyone. Some people only consider work something that you do that is hard labor, others its only if you do it 16 hours a day(like my Dad), or others only if you don't like it, or me, that you have to have done it for a long period of time OR you can't be called retired from it.

In my thinking, I'm only defining work as it coinsides with reitrement. Someone who never did something conistently for a long period of time cannot then be retired from it.

Let me give you a crazy example. I believe that it is possible for a contract killer to retire. Say this dude or dudette did this job/career methodically killing maybe 20 people a year, with all the set up and action and get away necessary to make all the arrangements, along with ample vacation time. S/he could be retired. But if they only did the job for 10 years, then they are not retired, not enough duration, they are just on vacation. If they became a school teacher after it then they did indeed retire from contract killing because they have a new job.

Its all about duration of the activity even several activities..... IN MY OPINION, maybe crazy but not nonsense for me, just my opinion. However a cogent discussion about the weak points in my argument could change my opinion. But...... insults will never do it.

HC
Assuming I understand you correctly - I could leave my current position at age 40, take an even more active role in raising my children until their age of majority (13 more years at that time). Cumulatively I would have 30 years of 'work' under my belt. After that time, if I choose to be completely idle I would have met the 30-year duration through the two tasks. You could replace raising children with sailing around the world, volunteering with a local charity, perfecting your flyfishing technique, etc. This line of reasoning puts defining what is included in the duration on a slippery slope. For example, I doubt you would consider perfecting one's channel surfing skills as a worthy activity for the 30 year duration.

It is arbitary to choose any timeframe at all. I could empathize (but not necessarily agree with) a position that a retirement must be earned, but not a length of service position.

You could also make the argument that a person that has achieved financial independence is being selfish by not retiring and making room for the next generation of workers.

I'm not trying to change your mind. I just can't see any logical reason for your position and I question whether you take that position only because society pushes us to believe that everyone must be a productive worker bee.
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Old 08-17-2010, 06:26 PM   #45
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It's all relative. My Mom worked fifty years for the same investment firm and felt she retired early. I will be lucky if I surpass 35 years of good fruitfull work before I hang it up. The particular age it happens is not important. I know plenty of 60 year olds who have more going on than a lot of 40 year young people.
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Old 08-17-2010, 10:11 PM   #46
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It's a state of mind. I ESRd at age 61 and am 5-10 years ahead of most of my colleagues, many of whom will work til they can't.
I CAN'T HELP IT!!

You're rich and in Florida, how easy can it be??
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Old 08-17-2010, 10:32 PM   #47
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I CAN'T HELP IT!!

You're rich and in Florida, how easy can it be??
Got a nice house you might wanna buy...
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Old 08-18-2010, 08:29 AM   #48
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I'm not trying to change your mind. I just can't see any logical reason for your position and I question whether you take that position only because society pushes us to believe that everyone must be a productive worker bee.
As much as I don't like it personally myself, I must admit that, in my opinion, the worker bee anology has some merit. I believe that people in a society have a requirement to be some kind of productive worker bee(either constructive or destructive) for a duration of time to have something to be "retired from".

In fact it may simply be the use of the word "retirement". I think in my mind, you cannot use the word "retirement" unless you actually worked for a period of time to retire from. Early retirement in my mind is forced retirement.

Its NOT LOGICAL, its my opinion, based on my upbringing. If someone stops working before the required numer of years, in my opinion, that is their right to do so in our society. But in my opinion, its not thier right to call that stoppage retirement, if they only did it a short period of time.

Retirement is a reward for working long and hard at something. Its probably about semantics, and its all relative and built around rewards. Those people who made an obscene amount of money or who inherited an obscene amount of money may never understand the concept of work at all, in the duration aspect. My sister in law works for a bank. She is a senior VP and she makes double what I make after working for 40 years, and she's only been at it for 28 years.

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Old 08-18-2010, 10:46 AM   #49
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I CAN'T HELP IT!!
You're rich and in Florida, how easy can it be??
I don't get it. What does being in Florida have to do with anything being easy, apart from not having to shovel snow? It is difficult to imagine a more horrible climate, at least for six or seven months of the year: bugs galore, stifling and oppresive heat and humidity, being trapped indoors, evacuating for hurricanes. If I lived in Florida, I would be planning my escape, as if from a prison, ASAP. Please explain.
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Old 08-18-2010, 10:50 AM   #50
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I suspect it's simply the grass is greener syndrome - kumquat lives in the Great White North.
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Old 08-18-2010, 10:52 AM   #51
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I believe there was a play on words there somewhere. Maybe that is why rich was not capitalized. If you are RICH, imho, you can fill in the place.
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Old 08-18-2010, 12:37 PM   #52
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In my thinking, I'm only defining work as it coinsides with reitrement. Someone who never did something conistently for a long period of time cannot then be retired from it.
I'm reminded of the great ad-lib line of Harrison Ford in Raiders of the Lost Ark: "It's not the years, honey, it's the mileage."

I retired at 38 after 15 years as an Investment Banker on Wall Street and I certainly felt my short career measured in "mileage" was the equivalent to 30 years.
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Old 08-18-2010, 01:03 PM   #53
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No rush, but I'm kind of interested starting something the kids can get involved in that will teach them the value of hard work-- I worry a little about what the kids think about seeing me retired and not doing much. I remind them that I was able to do this because I worked my butt off in the car business for almost 20 years and saved much of what I earned, but you know, monkey see--monkey do.
I think that kids don't care about your work ethic. They just want to know how much time you can spend with them. They also want you to give them money and drive them to the mall, but that's more negotiable.

When Jarhead ER'd back in the 1980s, his daughter was a teen so he worried about the same work-ethic impression. For the next few years until she graduated high school he kept up the fiction of work-- he'd show up at breakfast in work clothes, "leave for work" in his car, and sneak back home after she'd left for school.

Years later he confessed the subterfuge. She thought it was pretty funny. She said that she was too busy with teen drama/angst to notice that he wasn't working, and even if she'd noticed she wouldn't have have been able to care what his lack of employment could possibly have to do with her important teen life issues.

Teens don't form their entire work ethic based on just your example. (The "Nature or Nurture?" author says that about all parents can do is influence who a kid's friends & mentors are.) Teens have plenty of other examples all around them-- their teachers & coaches, their co-workers/bosses at their part-time jobs, the celebrities they see in the media.

I tell our kid that work was fun until it conflicted with family. I tell her that I don't mind working as long as it doesn't have the hassles of commuting, uniforms, meetings, and other bureaucracy. I tell her that a good work ethic will help her save even more money and help her achieve FI even sooner so that she can make her own ER decision. She's seen us work plenty hard around the house and on the book (to say nothing of parenting), so she can understand the concepts of employment and a good hard work ethic even when they're separate.

Usually when we were in the middle of some ugly, messy, sweaty, dirty home-improvement (or landlording) project I'd pause for a moment, look at her, and say "Kids, stay in school." She'd roll her eyes and say "Yeah, thanks Dad, how'd that work out for you?" But she understands.
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Old 08-18-2010, 01:33 PM   #54
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You know, just retiring at all seems to be a goal that most of the public won't reach. So, ANY retirement could be considered ER.
I'm shooting for 56, but that may slip to 60 when I get my full pension, unreduced by ER penalties.
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Old 08-18-2010, 02:01 PM   #55
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When Jarhead ER'd back in the 1980s, his daughter was a teen so he worried about the same work-ethic impression. For the next few years until she graduated high school he kept up the fiction of work-- he'd show up at breakfast in work clothes, "leave for work" in his car, and sneak back home after she'd left for school.
Wow! That's crazy! Thanks for sharing that Nords.

Quote:
Teens don't form their entire work ethic based on just your example. (The "Nature or Nurture?" author says that about all parents can do is influence who a kid's friends & mentors are.) Teens have plenty of other examples all around them-- their teachers & coaches, their co-workers/bosses at their part-time jobs, the celebrities they see in the media.
Good points. So it's not all about me?

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Usually when we were in the middle of some ugly, messy, sweaty, dirty home-improvement (or landlording) project I'd pause for a moment, look at her, and say "Kids, stay in school." She'd roll her eyes and say "Yeah, thanks Dad, how'd that work out for you?" But she understands.
Yeah, I use that one whenever I get the chance. In fact, I just used it this morning when my teenage son and I were out mowing our crazy huge lawn in the 106 degree heat index Texas weather. We were both frying out there so we took a break to drink some water under a tree. Some yard service crew across the street was working like crazy, and I told him that those crews ususlly do about 6 big yards per day, every day, from what a buddy of mine told me. I asked him if he wanted to do something like that for a living, and when he said no I told him to do well in school and get a good degree (accounting is my recommendation) and he wont have to mow yards for a living if he doesnt want to.
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Old 08-18-2010, 02:34 PM   #56
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I don't get it. What does being in Florida have to do with anything being easy, apart from not having to shovel snow? It is difficult to imagine a more horrible climate, at least for six or seven months of the year: bugs galore, stifling and oppresive heat and humidity, being trapped indoors, evacuating for hurricanes. If I lived in Florida, I would be planning my escape, as if from a prison, ASAP. Please explain.
I know I'm open to ridicule, but I completely agree with you.

My DW/me were (well I was) stationed in Florida (Eglin AFB) for a bit over 18 months in the early 70's.

We hated the weather (we hated a lot more, but weather was our primary gripe; you can ask my DW about the bugs and her constant "battle" with them).

Needless to say, we live/retired in the Mid-Atlantic states, and have no desire to move to Florida (as many I know/w*rked with did).

And yes, we were evacuated due to a pending hurricane (that never arrived, and cost me a buch of $$$ to flee the area).

You can always add/layer clothes; you can’t take them all off.

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Old 08-18-2010, 04:57 PM   #57
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Old 08-18-2010, 05:02 PM   #58
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Early retirement is subjective.

E.g., someone who long planned to work until age 70 but through a combination of LBYM and savings manages to retire at age 68 has achieved ER, at least IMO.

There are people who stop regular employment at a young age and survive at a subsistence level, sometimes supported by their spouse's income, part-time employment, childcare benefits, book royalties, etc. To my mind, such people are not genuinely retired; but if they want to call themselves retired, that's their perogative.

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I would really prefer that most people worked until they were old enough to get the AARP blurb and carry the card.
Well, we all have our preferences. But I'm certainly glad you aren't calling the shots on my life.

Legend has it that the late Ted Kennedy was once told by a factory worker: "Senator, I hear you never worked a day in your life, and this is what a lot of people have against you. I want to tell you, you haven't missed a thing". While I am not personally a fan of Mr. Kennedy, I don't disagree with that remark.
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Old 08-18-2010, 08:38 PM   #59
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In fact it may simply be the use of the word "retirement". I think in my mind, you cannot use the word "retirement" unless you actually worked for a period of time to retire from. Early retirement in my mind is forced retirement.
something to be "retired from".

Its NOT LOGICAL, its my opinion, based on my upbringing. If someone stops working before the required numer of years, in my opinion, that is their right to do so in our society. But in my opinion, its not thier right to call that stoppage retirement, if they only did it a short period of time.
BUt if I recall correctly it doesn't matter if someone works for 45 years, if it's not in a job you find prestigious enough then it's not a career and you can't retire from it anyway. It's beginning to sound as if only you and a couple of the doctors on the forum are actually able to retire, and only then if they work for 30 years or more after med school. The rest of us are underpaid migrant workers who have merely quit working in order to leech off of society, and the fact that we worked and planned to reach our goals make no difference. You might want to start a forum for HsiaoChu Approved Early Retirees.
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Old 08-19-2010, 07:27 AM   #60
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BUt if I recall correctly it doesn't matter if someone works for 45 years, if it's not in a job you find prestigious enough then it's not a career and you can't retire from it anyway. It's beginning to sound as if only you and a couple of the doctors on the forum are actually able to retire, and only then if they work for 30 years or more after med school. The rest of us are underpaid migrant workers who have merely quit working in order to leech off of society, and the fact that we worked and planned to reach our goals make no difference. You might want to start a forum for HsiaoChu Approved Early Retirees.
You're nit-picking. Its just an opinion, dude. Its not an edict or demand or anything other than a personal opinion that some people share and some people don't. I have a right to my opinion; whether its logical or appropriate in others eyes is irrelevant.
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