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Re: New & looking for some input
Old 11-07-2005, 09:40 AM   #21
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Re: New & looking for some input

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfHaroldHill
Nonsense! *This post is nothing but self-congratulatory rubbish. *Get kids studying, not working.
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Originally Posted by ProfHaroldHill
About being harsh -- I am offended, personally, and very much, by the implication that anyone who had the good fortune to have parents that picked up the bills is spoiled, and the victim of good intention gone astray. *

Spoiled? -- up yours!!!
Hey, HH, I think you need to take a look at your posts from another perspective.

I didn't interpret BetterHalf's post as implying anything about you-- I saw it as their personal experiences about spoiling kids with excessive material wealth at an inappropriate age. *I think there's a difference between "picking up the bills" and buying a kid a new car. *

You guys have room for common ground. *Using phrases like "self-congratulatory rubbish" isn't a very constructive criticism or much of a basis for further discussion.

I agree with both of you guys. *My parents picked up my bills to the extent that I had food, clothing, shelter, and a small allowance. *In high school I wanted more, though, so I cut neighbor's yards, washed cars, and cared for their pets. *I also had a part-time job on weekends & summers. *The "deal" was that I had to maintain my school grades before I could seek employment, and I had to manage my time effectively to make it all happen.

I worked my assets off in college and I appreciated it much more by doing it that way. *I studied hard, joined clubs, participated in sports, and was one of thousands who were doing similar activities while working off-campus. *Martha also makes a good point about work-study schools. *I believe the total of those students' experiences is more than "anectodal".

While your studies may show negative effects, it's hard to judge their merits without a few links. *We're all pretty skeptical (even cynical) about studies until we have a chance to read them for ourselves.
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Re: New & looking for some input
Old 11-07-2005, 09:58 AM   #22
 
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Re: New & looking for some input

OK -- let me ask the obvious question: If work is so great, why are so many regulars here interested in early retirement? You mean that it's only good for kids? Lots of conventional people believe that, to the extent possible, kids should learn and play, and adults should work. Seems like the relationship is getting turned around now.

HH
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Re: New & looking for some input
Old 11-07-2005, 10:30 AM   #23
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Re: New & looking for some input

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfHaroldHill

About being harsh -- I am offended, personally, and very much, by the implication that anyone who had the good fortune to have parents that picked up the bills is spoiled, and the victim of good intention gone astray. *My parents paid my tuition, at some considerable sacrifice. *In turn, I had the opportunity to pursue my education to a greater length than I would have had otherwise. *Moreover, rather than being a spoiled brat who was handed things on a silver platter, I worked my ass off at schools that are well known throughout the English speaking world (and most of the rest of the world for that matter). *In fact, I worked hard enough, academically, to receive three engineering degrees, numerous academic honors, and to graduate very near the top of my class.

Lucky? -- you bet!!!

Spoiled? -- up yours!!!

HH
Prof:* You were indeed fortunate, but by the same token, I'm sure that your parents felt like the money was well spent.
Seems like you got a little "worked up" and could use a "jump start" towards DanTiem's 400 laugh a day requirement. * I was supposed to play golf today, but it's raining like hell, so no go.
(My wife and I have already had about 30 laughs apiece so far this morning, so I can spare one.

A man walked into a car dealership and spotted the car of his dreams.* He walked over to inspect it.* As he bent over to feel the fine leather upholstery, he broke wind.* Embarassed, he looked around nervously to see if anybody was nearby.* A salesman approached and said , "Good day, sir, how may I help you today"?
The man asked "What's the price of this car?"
The salesman said, "Frankly sir, I'd rather not say."
He said "Why not"?
The salesman said "If you farted just touching it, you're going to **** when you hear the price."

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Re: New & looking for some input
Old 11-07-2005, 10:32 AM   #24
 
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Re: New & looking for some input

Ex-Jarhead -- You da man!

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Re: New & looking for some input
Old 11-07-2005, 10:33 AM   #25
 
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Re: New & looking for some input

All I meant was "that's a good reply" . . .

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Re: New & looking for some input
Old 11-07-2005, 11:39 AM   #26
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Re: New & looking for some input

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Get kids studying, not working. *
It is all about balance and expectations.

I think that members of the board understand the value of doing well in school and would not want a youth to neglect their studies by working. HOWEVER, youth learn a lot when they have a job outside the home. The hours need not be long, but the lessons learned about responsibility, time management, and the value of money are significant.*

Kids should learn and play but they also need age appropriate responsibilities.* Unfortunately many kids have a sense of entitlement.* As Dr. Phil states, it is an ‘eat what you kill world’.* Our children need to learn hunting skills before their life depends on it.* Those skills are not just academic.*

What you see on the forum are sprinters, so to speak, not hikers.* Were you to look at our CV’s you would find people who worked hard academically and professionally.* They spent less they earned.* They are working toward financial independence so that they have the opportunity to ‘retire early’.* That financial independence enables us to return balance to our lives.*
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Re: New & looking for some input
Old 11-07-2005, 12:17 PM   #27
 
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Re: New & looking for some input

I agree about balance. However, I disagree that getting "working papers for kids ASAP" is an ingredient of any kind of thoughtful balance. The reason that the state requires working papers is because labor at too young an age is abusive.

Also, I disagree with "Dr. Phil" regarding life philosophy, and probably just about everything else, although I very seldom listen to him (mainly when I can't avoid it). Scot Burns, in his most recent column, observed that men could learn a lot from women by understanding that life goes much better as a cooperative venture rather than as a competitive struggle. Both options are open. Our kids don't need to grow up as little eat-what-you-kill savages.

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Re: New & looking for some input
Old 11-07-2005, 12:41 PM   #28
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Re: New & looking for some input

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Originally Posted by justin
Working during school was fun and/or beneficial to my professional development.
Ditto.* *I paid my way through school by working at a bunch of different jobs, and I was lucky in the sense that many of my jobs immediately leveraged my education.

Teaching Assistant: there's nothing like teaching to improve your understanding of a subject.

Hot-air balloon design validation: I was able to apply concepts from a fairly obscure course in continuum mechanics I had taken as part of a bioengineering program.* *There's nothing like cross-fertilization to deepen your understanding and to give you an unexpected competitive edge.

Scientific Programmer: extended some well-known numerical methods into novel algorithms, got published, and got to work on state-of-the-art hardware and work with high-powered (Nobel) researchers.

Beat the hell out of lectures and books.
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Re: New & looking for some input
Old 11-07-2005, 12:45 PM   #29
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Re: New & looking for some input

<<I agree about balance. However, I disagree that getting "working papers for kids ASAP" is an ingredient of any kind of thoughtful balance. The reason that the state requires working papers is because labor at too young an age is abusive.>>

good grief
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Re: New & looking for some input
Old 11-07-2005, 01:03 PM   #30
 
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Re: New & looking for some input

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Originally Posted by BetterHalf

good grief*
My sentiments, exactly

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Re: New & looking for some input
Old 11-07-2005, 01:15 PM   #31
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Re: New & looking for some input

I believe that if you live (work) in a jungle, you better know how to survive there. *Believe me, after 30+ years in a variety of "jungles" you better know how to live in one or you will be eaten by the occupants. *

My son is a great example of not understanding the jungle. *He works for the same university that he attends and that is really all he knows. *The insulated nature of living within the confines of a university is actually impeding his education of the real world. *Once he get out and starts to work in a real job in the real world, I am afraid he will be behind his peers and will be eaten by the tigers. *

Higher education is a wonderful thing and in many careers is a necessity. However, most of the jobs or opportunities to make a living fall outside of the university environment so unless he wants to make teaching a career (unlikely) then he will need to get some real life experience. *

My other son has worked at some job or another since he was 15. *He is now in the university and is working on his degree full time while working part time. *He lives off-campus because it is closer to work and he knows that his career will not be in school so he is focusing on the work world. *He knows how to live in the jungle and has had to deal with some pretty rotten jobs so far. *All of them have been learning experiences that he would never have obtained in school. *There is no better teacher than experience. *
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Re: New & looking for some input
Old 11-07-2005, 01:26 PM   #32
 
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Re: New & looking for some input

SteveR -- I don't work in a university either (Harold Hill, as you probably know, was a Broadway character, not a real professor). Nor do I work or live in a jungle. Far from it, on both accounts. Haven't seen a tiger in ages.

As far as real-world skills go, a good measure might be your ability to tolerate the stress of the workplace.

I'm just astonished at the number of ERs and ER wannabes who are gung-ho for having kids work, but who don't want to work themselves.

Seems to me that a lot of people who post here have a selfish, dysfunctional relationship with their children. Sort of like the geezers (I'm a geezer myself) who have the bumper stickers proclaiming "I'm spending my kids' inheritance."

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Re: New & looking for some input
Old 11-07-2005, 01:29 PM   #33
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Re: New & looking for some input

As in all things, balance is the key, grasshopper...

One thing I learned while mowing yards, pitching hay bales, and making pizzas was that I didn't want to do ANY of that for a living... :P
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Re: New & looking for some input
Old 11-07-2005, 01:31 PM   #34
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Re: New & looking for some input

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfHaroldHill
OK -- let me ask the obvious question: *If work is so great, why are so many regulars here interested in early retirement? *You mean that it's only good for kids? *Lots of conventional people believe that, to the extent possible, kids should learn and play, and adults should work. *Seems like the relationship is getting turned around now.
I think we need to distinguish between the concepts of "work" and "avocation". *

Kids learn about avocations by seeking work through jobs. *Hopefully they find one, because if they do then they'll enjoy the rest of their lives and never care about ER. *Kids can learn & play as much at "work" as they can at "school" or at home. *I know kids who would rather spend their time at work than at the latter two. OTOH I know kids who've worked in pineapple or sugar cane for a summer and will do anything, even work through college, to avoid having to go back to those sunny outdoor jobs. So work is a powerful motivator in one way or another!

But although my Navy career started as an avocation, when we subsequently started our family the conflicting priorities turned Navy into a hard-working job and I didn't enjoy it anymore. *In other words, the avocation was great but the work sucked. *At that point I was pretty strongly motivated to ER. *Maybe someday I'll find my avocation, but I'm beginning to think that early retirement IS my avocation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfHaroldHill
I agree about balance.* However, I disagree that getting "working papers for kids ASAP" is an ingredient of any kind of thoughtful balance.* The reason that the state requires working papers is because labor at too young an age is abusive.*
When I was a teenager wanting to work during the summer, I didn't appreciate having the state telling me what I was allowed to do. *

I think if my kid wants to do earn spending money doing jobs around the house or to get a labor permit then it's my job to help her get one. *You gotta know your kids, and I think parents & kids can define "abusive" at least as well as the state tries to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfHaroldHill
Also, I disagree with "Dr. Phil" regarding life philosophy, and probably just about everything else, although I very seldom listen to him (mainly when I can't avoid it). *Scot Burns, in his most recent column, observed that men could learn a lot from women by understanding that life goes much better as a cooperative venture rather than as a competitive struggle. *Both options are open. *Our kids don't need to grow up as little eat-what-you-kill savages.
I think Dr. Phil is extremely good at explaining life concepts to people whose blissful ignorance perpetually amazes me, and his comments "How's that working for ya?" and "If that's the biggest problem you have right now" have entered our household vocabulary. *He seems to understand balance too.

But I don't get the reference to kids as eat-what-you-kill savages. *You're gonna have to clarify that one a little for me...
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Re: New & looking for some input
Old 11-07-2005, 01:43 PM   #35
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Re: New & looking for some input

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Originally Posted by ProfHaroldHill
SteveR -- I don't work in a university either (Harold Hill, as you probably know, was a Broadway character, not a real professor).* Nor do I work or live in a jungle.* Far from it, on both accounts.* Haven't seen a* tiger in ages.

As far as real-world skills go, a good measure might be your ability to tolerate the stress of the workplace.*

I'm just astonished at the number of ERs and ER wannabes who are gung-ho for having kids work, but who don't want to work themselves.*

Seems to me that a lot of people who post here have a selfish, dysfunctional relationship with their children.* Sort of like the geezers (I'm a geezer myself) who have the bumper stickers proclaiming "I'm spending my kids' inheritance."

HH
HH,

I was not directing this post at you; rather to the board in general. But, since you opened the door....

I am happy you have not had the experience of meeting a tiger in your work life. I have had to deal with more than my share of them. I guess it is all in what part of an organization you are in.

I believe that most of those either in ER or looking to be ER, are by nature, driven to excell. This would tend to rub off on our kids to some degree (we hope) so they can also learn to work the system to their advantage and get a jump on living a life of FIRE. I do not see it as unreasonable at all to give my kids the benefit of my experience and my goals in life. I would much rather they learn to plan so their work life has some personal goals beyond the next meal or tank of gas.

If I spend their inheritance then so be it;it is not theirs unless I die. I have (am doing) my job as a parent and choose to help support them as I can and as I choose. If there is something left after I am done then fine; otherwise, they will have been taught how to get FI themselves and it will up to them to choose to do it or not. That is what I want my kids to understand; that life is about choices and planning.
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Re: New & looking for some input
Old 11-07-2005, 01:56 PM   #36
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Re: New & looking for some input

To throw a little support to HH, I didn't work in my first year of law school. I had saved up enough money to live on and had student loans for school. I was third in my class that year and got the top grade in my class in several courses. I was invited to join Law Review.

After the first year, I worked each summer and worked two jobs during the subsequest school years. I dropped from number 3 in my class to barely graduating in the top 10%. (Not that there is anything wrong with that). I had to pass up law review, which would have opened doors to many more jobs.

I didn't really need the "real life" experience of a job. I had plenty jobs before law school. And my law school jobs did not relate at all to the kind of legal work I ended up doing.


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Re: New & looking for some input
Old 11-07-2005, 02:06 PM   #37
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Re: New & looking for some input

That's a nice little Avitar you have there Vlad.
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Re: New & looking for some input
Old 11-07-2005, 02:14 PM   #38
 
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Re: New & looking for some input

SteveR -- fair enough.

Martha -- my concern is not so much with young adults; rather, more with children who are young enough to need working papers.

As you can tell by now, this is a hot button with me. You can also tell that my personality type is not suitable for posting about hot-button topics!

Sorry . . . I will try to behave

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Re: New & looking for some input
Old 11-07-2005, 02:25 PM   #39
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Re: New & looking for some input

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Our kids don't need to grow up as little eat-what-you-kill savages.
'eat what you kill' is an idiomatic phrase, hardly encouragement to savage behavior. *The bottom line is that youth need to have the skills needed to provide for themselves. While we have mentioned learning the value of money, the amount of money earned hasn’t been the focus. *It isn't enough to know your stuff, you need to be able to use that knowledge. That is a skill that is acquired in the work world.

Martha, I always thought Law Review was more like a job than not - except you don't get paid.* It isn't insular; you work with your peers much as is done in professional practice.

My daughter worked while in high school and university. She was an athlete and did very well academically. Upon graduation she had business and social skills beyond her years. *If she hadn't learned how to work as a member of a team, and to manage managers in the workplace, she wouldn't be where she is today.

There are some professions where only academic experience has value, religious scholars come to mind. *However, in ancient times such scholars also had a craft because the community expected them to earn their keep.

Child labor laws regulate the employment of minors under 18 (been there, done that - once the subject of a cartoon as a result of my work as a strawberry picker inspector).. if the states would only continue issuing 'working papers' we wouldn't have as many hazardous occupations violations.* [Don't get me started on the recent DOL fiasco with a major employer!]
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Re: New & looking for some input
Old 11-07-2005, 02:33 PM   #40
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Re: New & looking for some input

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'
Martha, I always thought Law Review was more like a job than not - except you don't get paid. It isn't insular; you work with your peers much as is done in professional practice.

I didn't have time for Law Review because I was working too much. I missed out on an important item to add to my resume, necessary for certain jobs. Frankly, I didn't really want to work on a boring Law Review article with a subject vetted by too many people other than myself. And who knows if I would have liked the jobs I was foreclosed from anyway.

So all in all, working was probably just fine. So my story added nothing to this thread. I think I am avoiding work.
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