New here, referred from Bogleheads

[REWahoo]

As Rich points out, most of us are only 'special' in our own minds. Once you get over that you can get on with enjoying life.

[Katsmeow]

I didn't see HsiaoChu;s post as saying that people in professions like medicine, law, etc. are actually more special or better than anyone else. However, there is a difference between many people with jobs and those who have a specific career role that is very self-defining. That is seen commonly with the professions like medicine and law but al so exists in other areas as well.

My DH recently retired after over 30 years with the same company. Certainly I'm no more special than he is. Yet, he did not define himself as much by his work as I defined myself by mine.

[HsiaoChu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsmeow I didn't see HsiaoChu's post as saying that people in professions like medicine, law, etc. are actually more special or better than anyone else. However, there is a difference between many people with jobs and those who have a specific career role that is very self-defining......

Of course all of this is my opinion only, and others may have a different opinion, and probably should, so we all don't forget who we actually are.

The key to understanding my post is not to get hung up on defining a REAL CAREER in ways that denote one person as MORE SPECIAL THAN SOMEBODY ELSE.

The key to understanding my post is that anyone who had a career that was specific enough FOR THEM TO HAVE A SIGNIFICANT DEFINITION OF THEMSELVES as that career, will need to address issues. For them then, this is a real career.

I suggested that certain occupations could be much easier to make this definition. Its not black or white guys/gals. There is a huge gray area in all of this. I'm sure that if you had a career digging holes for coffins, and it was self defining for you, then you could run into emotional issues when you are no longer a card carrying member of that group.

But the key item, IMO, is the degree to which you defined yourself as a certain career. Its also the degree to which you can let that go away, which probably is somewhat dependent on the amount of FUN and Fulfillment you had actually doing the job. And again, the occupations I listed often have greater fulfillment than the digger one

HsiaoChu

P.S. Rich, I suspect that specialness is an issue for you. You responded by defining your medical career in terms of your issues with special-ness. I've tried for much of my life to get rid of the concept of specialness as much as I can. I don't define a career in specialness terms.

I have a daughter who continues to believe that the college education we paid for, at a somewhat special kind of liberal arts institution, makes her more special than anyone else. It keeps tripping her up even 8 years later despite the fact most of her peers have already gone on to some kind of grad school, and she has not. Her degree of believing that her education made her special has something to do with this. Everything is always ABOUT HER.

[HsiaoChu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by REWahoo As Rich points out, most of us are only 'special' in our own minds. Once you get over that you can get on with enjoying life.

IMO, I'm not sure that removing all specialness is possible or even desirable for effective living, unless..... one is vying for a postion on the "Sainthood Fooseball Team".

[REWahoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HsiaoChu IMO, I'm not sure that removing all specialness is possible or even desirable for effective living, unless..... one is vying for a postion on the "Sainthood Fooseball Team".

I'm team captain...

[Meadbh]

What we're talking about here, "specialness" or "feeling special" is really narcissism.

Narcissism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The ethicist John Banja, talking about narcissistic doctors:

"The literature on narcissism suggests that it’s probably a product of nurturing more than anything else. This nurturing could occur early in childhood or it could occur in medical school or, most probably, in residency. Robert Millman has discussed a phenomenon he calls “acquired situational narcissism,” illustrated by professional athletes and movie stars, whom he has counseled over the years. These folks often are born into socio-economically disadvantaged situations, but in their early 20s, for example, they find themselves millionaires and the center of attention. And they begin to develop pompous, condescending, very self-preoccupied types of behaviors. He believes that it’s a function of the situation that they are in. I often think that the physician lives in a peculiar, if not downright unhealthy, emotional environment. First, it’s a very stressful world. Second, doctors are often surrounded by people who are overly polite or overly respectful, if not simply genuflective. They’re also exposed to individuals who are challenging, irritating, annoying, or difficult—patients projecting their misery and anxiety on them and asking all kinds of challenging questions. Medical narcissism develops as either a poorly regulated response to the adulation (for all the marvelous things health providers know they do) or as an overly defensive response to the countless threats to the professional’s self-esteem that occur every day."

http://www.webmm.ahrq.gov/perspective.aspx?perspectiveID=19

[HsiaoChu]

I'd like to know what the physicians say about this.

[REWahoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HsiaoChu I'd like to know what the physicians say about this.

You mean physicians other than Meadbh?

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

I think there is a ring of truth to the article.

It may be one reason physicians and others faced with this issue find it so difficult to retire early or, if they do, they struggle for a while. Or they delay so long it is too late (e.g. health problems).

[Moemg]

I think this article rang true years ago . Most Physicians I have worked with in the last eighteen years have been down to earth or is it that the whole balance of nurse Physician relationships have changed for the better . When I started working in 1967 we had to stand when a Physician entered and offer him ( no women then ) our pen . I do think Hsia Chu is right in the fact that the more you had invested in the prestige of your job the harder it is to give up the title .

[HsiaoChu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moemg . I do think Hsia Chu is right in the fact that the more you had invested in the prestige of your job the harder it is to give up the title .

I think prestige is a possible interpretation, but its not prestige I was thinking about. Its more related to self concept. In my case, I have done a certain kind of job which has a big element of service to a non voting segment of the community, and which most people don't see as having any issues at all. I view my life in terms of how I've served this part of the community, and my self concept has 2/3 of my 61 years tied up into it.

When I retire next year, its likely I will not be able to do that again, at least in the same way. And even if I do, I will have to compete with others who are younger, and will view me with suspicion because I am old, rather than view me with respect because I'd been in the place a long long time.

HsiaoChu

[HsiaoChu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by REWahoo As Rich points out, most of us are only 'special' in our own minds. Once you get over that you can get on with enjoying life.

My wife of 37 years assures me that I am special in her mind.

[haha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HsiaoChu And even though you may know its time to go(I'm retiring in 10.5 months, after 40 years as a professional counselor in school based mental health services), and you have plenty to do and hobbies to try, and things to volunteer, you know that you will no longer be able to define yourself as anything other than a former "something".

I totally understand, even though I had the lowest of the low jobs, and only kept that for a short while. But do I experience loss? You bet! J'était un jeune paresseux; maintenant je suis un vieux paresseux!

Ha

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HsiaoChu I think prestige is a possible interpretation, but its not prestige I was thinking about. Its more related to self concept. In my case, I have done a certain kind of job which has a big element of service to a non voting segment of the community, and which most people don't see as having any issues at all. I view my life in terms of how I've served this part of the community, and my self concept has 2/3 of my 61 years tied up into it. When I retire next year, its likely I will not be able to do that again, at least in the same way. And even if I do, I will have to compete with others who are younger, and will view me with suspicion because I am old, rather than view me with respect because I'd been in the place a long long time.

I can relate to that. It is a loss associated with retirement. I hope that you find the gains to more than make up for it.

Personally, I think I had underestimated the benefits of ER. Among them are the new freedom from structured time commitments (well, at least a reduction); the restfulness of sleep unadorned by a bedtime or alarm clock; viewing having "nothing to do" as something other than boredom; retrieving old friendships previously atrophied by lack of time to visit in the working years. I'm still working a bit, and that may be the key as to why this is going so well so far.

Oh... and I watched an entire baseball game on TV, all 9 innings, even though my team got drubbed by Toronto. I haven't done that since college back in the 60s.

[REWahoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HsiaoChu My wife of 37 years assures me that I am special in her mind.

And you've convinced yourself she's telling the truth?

[haha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HsiaoChu When I retire next year, its likely I will not be able to do that again, at least in the same way. And even if I do, I will have to compete with others who are younger, and will view me with suspicion because I am old, rather than view me with respect because I'd been in the place a long long time.HsiaoChu

At the moment I am most interested in your avatar. Is that some sort of SM icon?

Ha

[Katsmeow]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haha At the moment I am most interested in your avatar. Is that some sort of SM icon? Ha

This was posted in another thread (which I found interesting)

Quote:

HsiaoChu is I Ching for the Preponderance of the Small. And thus, the avatar shows that a string as a link in a chain might be the stringest(strongest) link in the chain.

[harley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HsiaoChu This is one of the major MENTAL hassles of retiring after a long time working IN A REAL CAREER. IMO, those people who work at different jobs, whose job is just a job and not a full blown career, or who retire after less than 30 years-AND/OR don't really define themselves by what they do, don't really understand. This may be limited to what used to be called the "Professions": doctors, educators, college professors, high up upper management Executives for one corporation for a long time, etc. These people have a pretty much defined their lives around the goals and stuff of a career doing one specific kind of thing better than anyone else that they know within the parameters that they've been given. And even though you may know its time to go(I'm retiring in 10.5 months, after 40 years as a professional counselor in school based mental health services), and you have plenty to do and hobbies to try, and things to volunteer, you know that you will no longer be able to define yourself as anything other than a former "something". Any association you are a part of makes you a "retired member". You no longer have any say in your profession that you labored so hard at for so many years and which you developed a point of leadership over your mostly younger peers. Your biggest problem is that while working, you had utility, and people needed you and depended on you. Now you have to adjust to a place where substantially less people need you, and almost nobody depends on you. This can be liberating, but for many with whom their lives were not just defined by money and stuff, this can be very very very hard. I can see this looming. Only those who actually defined their lives based on what they did for a living can understand this LOSS. I suspect the only way is to look for leadership posts in your volunteer work in your retirement from your life defining job. HsiaoChu

I suspect that most (not all) people who define themselves by their career, or as you say defined their lives based on what they did for a living would not end up here on an ER forum. I think that even though many of us took pride in doing our jobs to the best of our abilities, it takes focussing on FIRE in order to reach that goal. If your entire focus is on the job, you'll probably continue in that position until forced to leave, whether through job loss, forced retirement, health issues, whatever. Those folks will most likely feel all of that loss you speak of. However, most who RE through choice and desire will have come to terms with those feelings long before they are ready to leave the job. Not to say there won't be fear and trepidation, but it will be leavened with excitement and anticipation. If they truly can't live without the crutch of external approval and the definition of their job, they'll be working again in some fashion in no time.

Wow, look at that. Multiple sentences with almost no extra capitals! I'm so proud.

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich_in_Tampa I can relate to that. It is a loss associated with retirement. I hope that you find the gains to more than make up for it. Personally, I think I had underestimated the benefits of ER. Among them are the new freedom from structured time commitments (well, at least a reduction); the restfulness of sleep unadorned by a bedtime or alarm clock; viewing having "nothing to do" as something other than boredom; retrieving old friendships previously atrophied by lack of time to visit in the working years. I'm still working a bit, and that may be the key as to why this is going so well so far.

Rich, this brings up a random thought. Now that you've been ER'd for a bit (or ER'd a bit more), are you considering reviving your "doctors over 50" discussion board?

Of course it's an obligation and a certain amount of work. And I can only imagine what type of moderators would volunteer for the job. Maybe you've learned too much over the last few years to get suckered into yet another discussion board.

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords Rich, this brings up a random thought. Now that you've been ER'd for a bit (or ER'd a bit more), are you considering reviving your "doctors over 50" discussion board? Of course it's an obligation and a certain amount of work. And I can only imagine what type of moderators would volunteer for the job. Maybe you've learned too much over the last few years to get suckered into yet another discussion board.

I had forgotten about that, after taking it down a few years ago. Maybe I'll give it another look when I'm fully FIREd.

OTOH, I have had some ideas about a unique web site for patients, dealing with how to make tough medical decisions. It's not a medical advice concept, but more where you come to it with a dilemma (should I go through this test or treatment, how personal values can be weighed into decisions) all made very user friendly. The net result would be a list of issues to discuss with your doctor. The liability part spooks me a little, though.