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Old 12-01-2009, 02:55 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Cattusbabe View Post
You can pay now or pay later but your gonna pay either way.
But it won't be just the "haves" paying. This is not a fixed-size pie. When property is taken from the "haves" to give to the "have nots," society gets poorer overall, and often even the "have nots" end up with less. Why does society get poorer?
-- Like anything else, when hard work, initiative, and risk taking (entrepreneurship/investing) is taxed, then there will be less of it.
-- On the whole (not true in each case) the "haves" got to be that way by making better decisions regarding allocation of resources and talent than the "have nots." Efficiently allocating resources is a key to growing societal wealth. If we take money from people who do it better (in general) and give to to people who do it less well (in general), we should expect less societal wealth--a smaller pie.

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Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.

This is known as "bad luck."
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Old 12-01-2009, 03:12 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by samclem View Post
-- Like anything else, when hard work, initiative, and risk taking (entrepereneurship/investing) is taxed, then there will be less of it.
-- On the whole (not true in each case) the "haves" got to be that way by making better decisions regarding allocation of resources and talent than the "have nots." Efficiently allocating resources is a key to growing societal wealth. If we take money from people who do it beter (in general) and give to to people who do it less well (in general), we shoud expect less societal wealth--a smaller pie.

Can I get an "amen."
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Old 12-01-2009, 05:42 PM   #123
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Just to make my thoughts clear.
I've nothing to sell. I'm not a troll. I don't spam.
What I do enjoy is debate, the exchange of views.
Like the movie said...We ( USA) really do live in an advanced democracy...where we must listen to others who have views that are directly opposed to our own.
So what? There is no "right". It is our obligation to question.
Many have lost the ability or willingness to debate. Just look at the so-called townhall meetings recently on healthcare reform.
Ouch.
My whole purpose for posting was to initiate an exchange of views. I originate in Europe, where folks sit in pubs/cafes & discuss things.
Things like religeon, politics, abortion, sex.
Lordy lordy...in this country, from what I've experienced, that creates a stunned silence in the room.
I really miss open debate in the US. Here, it seems, if one questions the "system" one gets labled as a loony real quick. ( no offence to our Northern buds!)
I QUESTION the future of the US economic model. I QUESTION who is going to provide the $$$$$ that Joe will need to live on in his later years. Coz sure as hell, Joe doesn't have it in his account today.
I question why I, me, Brogan should have to see my hard earned cash go to support all the tens of millions of Joe's. I'm just wanting a debate on the concept...to see what others think AND WHAT WE/I CAN DO ABOUT IT.
This is what forums are for no?
I'm not a loony.
The press, the govt, this forum, EVERYONE....never really fess's up to this 800lb gorilla. I see a train wreck coming.
Retirement is a personal thing. Not a one-size-fits-all. I do get it.
But....for those of us who are lucky enough to live an above average life-style & have built up an above average portfolio...it is sickening ( my personal feelings only ) to realise that I'm going to be singled out even more in the next 30 yrs to support Joe.
When I question that the system sucks....it's an opinion.
I'm shocked at the forum mods being so closed minded to my alternate opinion, or maybe I missed the small print at sign-up re. all "Black Hats" stay out.
My thoughts re. exiting the "Matrix"...not illegal. There's a whole world out there...places where there's no income tax.....yes, really.
Why flame me for pointing out a fact?
Overall, I'm one of the fortunate few. I HAVE a choice.
I'm mad as hell & I'm considering not taking it anymore.
This in no way is a negative comment on folks who are content to live on a modest ( insert your figure here) income that is probably below the radar ( it'll have to be pretty damned modest) of the tax hawks.

My 25c.
Brogan.
PS : a great quote...." Democracy is 2 wolves & a lamb discussing what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb disputing the vote"
( I don't own a gun, before the rocks start flying)
Brogan:

I'm glad you are sticking around and I'll take you at your word that you are selling nothing. But would it have been so hard to say something along the lines of "Hi, I'm Brogan. I think that in the near future taxes will reach confiscatory levels and I'm considering becoming an expatriate in order to avoid it"? You might then explain where you you are thinking of moving or maybe ask if anyone knows how to avoid the fact that the US taxes its citizens' incomes no matter where they are earned (subject to a credit) and that your new domicile will tax you too. That would be a good post and would start a useful discussion.

But to start with a rant about how the ordinary guy can never, ever make it and that someday someone will take your hard earned dough and give it to some shiftless dirtbag who doesn't deserve it? That is not useful. Combine it with rhetorical devices often used to sell things and you can see why some might be suspicious that you are merely pointing out the horrendous problem in order to market your own special solution -- i.e. "leaving the Matrix."

I don't think anyone on this site is unaware of the problems you identify. I have predicted for years that our income taxes will rise, regardless of who is in Congress or the White House. So have many others. I, and others, have also predicted for years that social security eventually will be means tested. Most people here also expect increased inflation as a consequence of the Fed run wild. But you know what? We go ahead and plan for those eventualities as best we can.

A discussion of how best to address these threats in my own plans would be useful to me. A fist pounding, spittle flecked rant about the fact that they will occur -- not so much.

Gumby
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Old 12-01-2009, 06:09 PM   #124
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But it won't be just the "haves" paying. This is not a fixed-size pie. When property is taken from the "haves" to give to the "have nots," society gets poorer overall, and often even the "have nots" end up with less. Why does society get poorer?
-- Like anything else, when hard work, initiative, and risk taking (entrepreneurship/investing) is taxed, then there will be less of it.
-- On the whole (not true in each case) the "haves" got to be that way by making better decisions regarding allocation of resources and talent than the "have nots." Efficiently allocating resources is a key to growing societal wealth. If we take money from people who do it better (in general) and give to to people who do it less well (in general), we should expect less societal wealth--a smaller pie.
You do realize that the logical extension of your argument is to simply take all of a society's wealth and give it to the one person who can make the best decisions. Good if you are that one person. Not so good if you are anyone else.
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Old 12-01-2009, 06:16 PM   #125
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You do realize that the logical extension of your argument is to simply take all of a society's wealth and give it to the one person who can make the best decisions. Good if you are that one person. Not so good if you are anyone else.
How convenient that that person is ME. So hand it over and make it snappy, y'all.
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Old 12-01-2009, 06:50 PM   #126
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You do realize that the logical extension of your argument is to simply take all of a society's wealth and give it to the one person who can make the best decisions.
Maybe not. After all, it is entirely possible that there is a limit to the amount of resources even the most talented individual can effectively put to work. If we avoid any forced redistribution and allow people to earn their own resources then this homeostatic mechanism, in general, allots the most resources to those most adept at handling them--but gives them no more. To modify a phrase: "To each according to his abilities . . ."

And, about the avatar: What DOES she see in him? Maybe she likes to be by herself for 6 months a year?
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Old 12-01-2009, 07:11 PM   #127
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And, about the avatar: What DOES she see in him? Maybe she likes to be by herself for 6 months a year?
Well, a regular deployment schedule does avoid those messy husband/boyfriend confrontations.
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Old 12-01-2009, 07:14 PM   #128
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Hmmm, I was thinking along different lines regarding the advantages of a submariner...but I shall refrain...
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Old 12-01-2009, 07:22 PM   #129
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Old 12-01-2009, 07:24 PM   #130
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Regarding "exiting the Matrix", along with all of us I am awaiting Brogan's more definitive answer. It is interesting to hear that he is from Europe. People who have been here know I rave all the time about taking trips through Europe. But to renounce my US citizenship to relocate there? No way! I have several personal reasons not related to taxes, but let consider just taxes.

Can anyone here provide any proof that the tax burden is lower in Europe than in the US? From what I have heard and read, with apologies to Europeans among us, they tend to be much more of a nanny state than the US. In fact, I find it alarming that we are heading that way, to be more like them. I have friends and relatives living in Europe, and frankly, I much prefer the personal freedom I enjoy here. While it lasts of course...

Now, perhaps Brogan suggests that we escape to a third world country. Hell, I am sure there are countries where the tax collection system is non-existent. Services are also non-existent, but the rich can purchase them la carte. Perhaps that is the attractiveness. That's how one does not have to pay to support others of lesser means. I am not going into a debate of the morality of this, so will stick with just the practical aspects.

From what I have heard, the above are also places where one has to pay for "taxes" in bribery to corrupt officials, or for Mafia-like protection. Rich people, particularly foreigners, would stand out in these places. One would need to know to befriend the local honcho man, or rub elbows and shoulders with people he detests. Hah!

In a former multi-national megacorp where I worked, I had colleagues from all around the world. Of course their views might be biased, given that they were all naturalized US citizens. All of them had advanced engineering degrees, and I would think they would be able to do well in their countries. I am talking about people with Ph.D. from Europe, Middle East, SouthEast Asia, and North Africa. Did they want to go back? Can you guess an answer?

I do not like the way certain things are going in the US, but I am going to stay and try to influence it in whatever legal and peaceful ways I can. People who want to leave are of course free to do so on their cognizance.
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Old 12-01-2009, 07:56 PM   #131
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There are a number of places where the tax rate is lower than the US (or many other high tax jurisidictions). In Hong Kong, the effective top tax rate on salaries is 15% with most people paying less than that. Similar rates apply to rental income and business profits. There are no taxes on dividends or interest, no capital gains taxes and no estate taxes.

Also importantly, it takes me about 5 minutes to complete my annual salaries tax return and about ten miunutes to do the return for each property.

The other option is to become a perpetual tourist. If you hold a passport issued by a country which does not tax non-resident citizens (which is most countries), you can legitimately avoid paying most taxes by spending less time in each country that will deem you to be resident. It's not a lifestyle that I would choose, but it is possible.
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Old 12-01-2009, 08:45 PM   #132
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I'm not a troll.
Really? You meet all the criteria. Inflammatory statements in your first post. No introduction. No data. No logical statements. No developed arguments, just argument. If it poops like a Canadian Goose and honks like a Canadian Goose, maybe it is a Canadian Goose.

Ed in Cowtown, AB.
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Old 12-01-2009, 08:54 PM   #133
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Hey, quit dumping on us Canucks (like a Canada goose).
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Old 12-01-2009, 08:57 PM   #134
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Seriously, I wish we would have a prolonged hunting season for Canuck geese around here. Damn things are overrunning every body of water and polluting the crap (heh) out of the water.
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Old 12-01-2009, 09:03 PM   #135
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Canada geese were responsible for downing Sully's plane.....

But of course they are nomads. I wonder which country they pay tax in?
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Old 12-01-2009, 10:06 PM   #136
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I traveled to Liberia in Africa this year. If anyone wants to move to a country without many taxes or any scrap of a nanny state you can certainly give it a try.

Hope you're also not looking for the nanny state to give you unemployment or social security. Also don't look for the gov't to send police or fire protection, they don't even have stoplights or city power. There are some police now but mostly it's the United Nations trying to keep the peace.

I travel to many countries for work, many of them are so-called developing economies. I thank my good fortune to live in America each time I come home. I'm not in love with paying taxes but I'm so grateful for the freedom opportunity here at home.
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Old 12-02-2009, 07:18 AM   #137
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Canada geese were responsible for downing Sully's plane.....

But of course they are nomads. I wonder which country they pay tax in?
They most definately are not nomads here. Year round permanent residents and in most places protected by law, so the only way to deal with them is try to chase them to someone else's property. But nothing a hunting season would not help with.
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Old 12-02-2009, 08:00 AM   #138
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Can anyone here provide any proof that the tax burden is lower in Europe than in the US? From what I have heard and read, with apologies to Europeans among us, they tend to be much more of a nanny state than the US. In fact, I find it alarming that we are heading that way, to be more like them. I have friends and relatives living in Europe, and frankly, I much prefer the personal freedom I enjoy here. While it lasts of course...
Taxes aren't everything. The cost of health care, old age pensions, education, etc., also figures in. Taxes in the U.S. buy us the world's largest military. What do high taxes buy you in France or Australia?
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Old 12-02-2009, 08:09 AM   #139
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Taxes aren't everything...


I thought taxes were one of the central pillars of your rant
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Old 12-02-2009, 08:22 AM   #140
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I thought taxes were one of the central pillars of your rant
Are you confusing ultimo with Brogan007?
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