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Old 10-16-2015, 09:35 PM   #41
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I have been living in Portland for more 30 years. All my family love Portland. But it rains a lot, please don't come :-)
Well, my wife grew up in Eugene and her family runs Oregons oldest rafting company so I can sort of glom onto them otherwise I would really stick out.
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Old 10-17-2015, 02:37 AM   #42
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I'm in a bit of a similar situation though at a different scale (40 w about 4m in liquid net worth). Big difference is DW and I have deliberately stayed far away from the temptation of comparative lifestyle upgrade. We're in Socal so the scale is similar to the area you're in. We have an "average house" about 900k. All my neighbours drive Hondas and Toyotas worry about retirement and job security, and are as far as I know mostly far away from FI. Makes it easy to avoid upgrade itis.

Schools in my area are very good public schools which are fairly uncommon in this area. We used those two things as criteria.

I have colleagues that live in rich areas of Santa Monica, palusades, the hills, etc. We could conceivably join but want to avoid it.

Kids are 1 and 3 and we want them normal.

Personally I value time more than money so we've tuned our life as such. I enjoy work but can walk away with essentially 0 concern.

My advice is stack rank your priorities, then write what % of time you spend relative to perceived value and then change life accordinly. Try to avoid as much justification or guilt.

Honestly I think if you really enjoy country clubs and fancy stuff... Don't let guilt cause you to do something else. And vice versa.

For myself I found by staying miles away from that my life is just way better but it's a personal choice.

Also... Don't put it off. At your net worth work is purely optional (depending on lifestyle choice ). If you delay making your life what you want it's like what Buffett says... You're saving up sex for old age . Don't do it.

Also I think kids are super aware and flexible. If you think you can do something you dislike now to get a benefit later they will behave the same way and at 28 will take careers they dislike so they can afford to be happy later . Conversely if you take a more austere life out of guilt your kids will learn thta their life decisions should be motivated by guilt. At least that's my observation.

So I'd say... Take time and be really honest with yourself and then take action sooner and not later. We're lucky enough to do that lets not be stupid enough not to

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Old 10-17-2015, 07:10 AM   #43
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Hi StuckinCT, we are the same age with a similar net worth so I can relate. Something clicked for me a few years ago as I was amassing some wealth, the money I was making was not translating into additional happiness. I started questioning what was really important to us and came to the conclusion that the high-end lifestyle wasn't right for our family. It just didn't fit with our core values. I was lucky enough to have several very high earning years so the spending habits hadn't had time to take hold. It's a slow progression that happens over many years of higher and higher earnings.

It might be helpful to breakdown what is really important and what really matters to you and your family. I'm reading a lot of justifications for your current lifestyle. Try to look at your lifestyle objectively, you might be surprised at what you find. Lifestyle habits are tough to break but I'm just sensing that you are already in the questioning phase...?

I think daylate has some great suggested reading. I'd suggest you check out Mr. Money Mustache — Early Retirement through Badassity as well. You might not be willing to retire on 25k per year like MMM but there are some very thought provoking articles about going against the spending=more happiness trap that many of us get ourselves into.

One point you brought up is the "quality" of education, swim programs and school rankings as a reason to stay. To be blunt, this is just nonsense. Your kids might develop connections that would help them climb the corporate ladder later in life but I doubt any of that will make them more grounded or happier as adults. Time with your kids is probably the best education you can give them. It allows you to emphasis what is most important in life.

Mr. Money Mustache is the man, I really actually envy extreme frugality. At the same time, I realize I will probably never be like him but it does not mean I or we all can not incorporate some of that line of thinking. Believe it or not, we are very budget minded and rarely deviate outside of our monthly and bi weekly spending allotment. But you said something that really hit home with me about a month or so ago, and that is that consuming more or buying more stuff wasn't making me any happier. For a while, the new German car or luxury watch provided a thrill. But I caught myself one night looking at more stuff and I finally just said to myself, this isn't going to make me any happier. Believe it or not, it was an unsettling experience because all of my life I was programmed to want more stuff and do the things necessary to get it. Without that justification, that was previously unquestioned, it was almost like what is the point. Sure I have other interests but I will admit what consumed me was getting all the fancy stuff to prove something either to myself or others. But the thing I realized is that no one really cares and if it isn't making me happy, it actually was bringing me down. I think now it is getting in the way of a more outdoor lifestyle, I have always loved the outdoors, the seasons, nature etc. I also love history, current events etc, I mean it's sounds silly but there are so many things higher up on the hierarchy of what is important, who cares what is sitting in the driveway. I think having a nice home though is important, cars these days are all pretty much the same apart from the connotation.
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Old 10-17-2015, 07:24 AM   #44
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For a while, the new German car or luxury watch provided a thrill. But I caught myself one night looking at more stuff and I finally just said to myself, this isn't going to make me any happier. Believe it or not, it was an unsettling experience because all of my life I was programmed to want more stuff and do the things necessary to get it. Without that justification, that was previously unquestioned, it was almost like what is the point of my life? Sure I have other interests but I will admit what consumed me was getting all the fancy stuff to prove something either to myself or others. But the thing I realized is that no one really cares and if it isn't making me happy, it actually was bringing me down. I think now it is getting in the way of a more outdoor lifestyle, I have always loved the outdoors, the seasons, nature etc. I also love history, current events etc, I mean it's sounds silly but there are so many things higher up on the hierarchy of what is important, who cares what is sitting in the driveway. I think having a nice home though is important, cars these days are all pretty much the same apart from the connotation.
This is sounding like a breakthrough! A bit different from your opening post.

Could it be that the inputs here over the past week have helped you solidify what you already knew in your heart but maybe just needed some validation?
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Old 10-17-2015, 07:46 AM   #45
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Dear StuckinCT, one thing that I have not seen addressed in all these posts is the fact that in your very first post, you mentioned that you are 80% in stocks. I personally decided to be about 45% in stocks during my DW's and my future retirement. I'm satisfied with about 6% return and prefer the lower overall volatility.

Also, I happen to live in one of the North San Diego County cities, Poway. The schools are great compared to almost any other city in North San Diego County except perhaps rancho Santa fe. Still, I would plan on sending the kids to private schools here.

The values you teach your kids personally will go farther than any public or private school can do for them.

One last thing : we're heading out of socal because of the crowded freeways among other reasons. The drivers are just crazy here.

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Old 10-17-2015, 07:48 AM   #46
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This is sounding like a breakthrough! A bit different from your opening post.

Could it be that the inputs here over the past week have helped you solidify what you already knew in your heart but maybe just needed some validation?
Marko, no doubt this has been extremely helpful and supportive. I appreciate it. One thing I will say though is that the country club thing is not really the problem, I love golf and nice golf courses, and I also like paddle sports. It's not really the issue, though the expense is part of it. I think the issue is more where I am personally, it no longer aligns with slugging it out on Wallstreet, whether because I have accumulated sufficient assets or whether I have become more self actualized it doesn't matter. It is what it is.
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Old 10-17-2015, 08:01 AM   #47
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Wants vs. needs.
Which is different for everyone but the sooner you can identify it the more control you will have over your expenses.
We were talking with our youngest son who's 25 about his girlfriend and he is concerned about her spending. He's an architect she just started working as a licensed dietician. Hopefully he can help her understand this.
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Old 10-17-2015, 08:12 AM   #48
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Dear StuckinCT, one thing that I have not seen addressed in all these posts is the fact that in your very first post, you mentioned that you are 80% in stocks. I personally decided to be about 45% in stocks during my DW's and my future retirement. I'm satisfied with about 6% return and prefer the lower overall volatility.

Also, I happen to live in one of the North San Diego County cities, Poway. The schools are great compared to almost any other city in North San Diego County except perhaps rancho Santa fe. Still, I would plan on sending the kids to private schools here.

The values you teach your kids personally will go farther than any public or private school can do for them.

One last thing : we're heading out of socal because of the crowded freeways among other reasons. The drivers are just crazy here.

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OrcasIslandbound, yes I appreciate the input on the allocation. With dividend paying stocks, as long as the dividends continue to be paid and increase, the volatility should not bother you if you truly live off of the income, ie you are not dependent on principal or distributions which involve selling potentially into adverse market conditions. Even in the financial crisis you saw only a 10-20% income reduction. If you are younger than 55, I would advise at least 60% stocks, and probably closer to 65% stocks as bonds are a guaranteed loss in real terms with a few exceptions. Real estate and alternatives also have a place but I will point out that the expected return on a 45% stock portfolio for the next ten years is definitely less than 6%. I would guess it is closer to 5%. It doesn't sound like much but it is a huge difference. We have an expected return of roughly 7.3%. I used 8.5% return expectations for equities, 11% small cap, 7.5% real estate and for bonds I assume 2.5%, which actually may be too high. I find a 4-6% income increase each year worth the volatility, even with the companies that are 20% overvalued, I'm not smart enough to know when they'll correct and I have substantial capital gains so selling is expensive. The funny thing is, this latest bout of volatility really cemented the fact that I can retire, even being down $800k at the bottom and still off $400k from the peak, I realized that it doesn't really impact my lifestyle at the end of the day and the volatility is the premium I pay for higher return expectations.
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Old 10-17-2015, 08:19 AM   #49
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I think the issue is more where I am personally, it no longer aligns with slugging it out on Wallstreet, whether because I have accumulated sufficient assets or whether I have become more self actualized it doesn't matter.
Congratulations! Identifying the problem is 90% of the solution.

You should consider yourself lucky; so many of your peers end up in a bad place (you know what I"m talking about) because they haven't been able to face what you've just said.

Good Luck!
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Old 10-17-2015, 11:12 AM   #50
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Excellent post.


As a relatively well-off parent, the struggle is to balance giving to your kids things and experiences without taking away their drive or incentive in life or allowing them to think things equate to worth or happiness. No doubt a keeping up with the Jones' lifestyle is not for us, even if we can afford it more than those that do it. I buy what I want, because I want it, not because of what someone else has or thinks of it.

But, I think values you instill in your kids supersede these material issues. I am not advocating you keep the club and lifestyle, but consider growing up "middle class" doesn't guarantee anything either. In other words, your lifestyle isn't this main issue IMHO. Your involvement in their lives and instilling character is. There is no sin in enjoying some of the finer things in life. Only you can decide what that means for you and your family.

The key is, regardless of lifestyle, you don't allow yourself or yours kids to buy into the myth that it makes you better. Stay humble and grounded - that is where it's at. It seems to me this point is lost on lots of people.
Thanks.

Totally agree that Middle Class definitely doesn't = risk free. We've all seen good kids from all sorts of backgrounds and complete idiots from all sorts of background. On balance, think I've seen more reckless/feckless behavior among kids living among a lavish lifestyle than not.

To your point on values, totally agree, tho I've always had concerns about my ability to project those values while indulging more nice things and not accidentally lure them into thinking they need a new iPhone every 12 months. I want my kids to have their own ramen noodle years and not think its a punishment but rather it's just life. That's just me tho and my concerns about managing my own situation.

I think the root of it is to teach your kids grit and determination -- high standards and ability to see things thru even when they get knocked down -- and have them understand that the financial rewards that may come with that are a nice by-product but not an end unto themselves. That financial security creates a freedom and ability to take risks that shouldn't be compromised by expanding lifestyle to means. That it's also ok to pursue something with modest financial rewards but then be comfortable living that more modest lifestyle.

For all that, a friend once told me "If you're worrying about being a good parent, odds are you're doing great." I think that's very applicable to everyone posting on this chain
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Old 10-17-2015, 11:28 AM   #51
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Beaverton, West Linn, LO and Tualatin all have excellent school systems consistently ranking high. Some schools in Portland do well, others not so much. Oregon is a great place to live, but you have to like the rainy gray days most of the year.
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Old 10-17-2015, 11:40 AM   #52
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Marko, no doubt this has been extremely helpful and supportive. I appreciate it. One thing I will say though is that the country club thing is not really the problem, I love golf and nice golf courses, and I also like paddle sports. It's not really the issue, though the expense is part of it. I think the issue is more where I am personally, it no longer aligns with slugging it out on Wallstreet, whether because I have accumulated sufficient assets or whether I have become more self actualized it doesn't matter. It is what it is.

Check out the San Francisco Bay area if you like camping and paddle sports. The home prices are only super high in the City itself and Silicon Valley and a few other very well off areas. There are many more reasonably priced, upper middle class suburbs. Plus initial cost is one factor in housing - long term appreciation potential may trump that. We bought during a boom period, paid twice as much for a house here compared to the state we moved from, but it was still a much better investment long term than our previous house due to appreciation combined with property taxes not going up much due to Prop 13.

On the country club and nanny front, IMHO, there is not anything wrong with either one. If you enjoy golf and a country club by all means keep going to one. If you look at the happiness research, the key is to live where you can easily be the Joneses instead of trying to keep up with them. There are many places you could live with your NW, belong to a country club and still be the Joneses.
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Old 10-17-2015, 01:50 PM   #53
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I think that I will always have some type of club or golf course affiliation. There are some courses that are more reasonable, low initiations and more laid back. Definitely agree it is better to be a big fish in a small pond for a lot of reasons. This is the biggest pond you can find outside of NYC. In our town, where we may actually be more the Jones' than not, everyone is always comparing themselves to hedgies or the bankers so it's like no one ever feels like they have made it. I have the same concern about being in Cali, and though there is more pressure on that coast to have the S model etc, I think people are more laid back. But the funny thing is, the corporate attitude is so pervasive here, yet we are losing corporate headquarters and people due to the taxes and the high cost of living. I would have loved to bought in Marin county five years ago, but my understanding is that California real estate is very cyclical. I could be wrong but I feel like I missed the boat. I think it's also good from a community minded perspective to be a big fish in a small community.
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Old 10-17-2015, 02:26 PM   #54
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I think that I will always have some type of club or golf course affiliation. There are some courses that are more reasonable, low initiations and more laid back. Definitely agree it is better to be a big fish in a small pond for a lot of reasons. This is the biggest pond you can find outside of NYC. In our town, where we may actually be more the Jones' than not, everyone is always comparing themselves to hedgies or the bankers so it's like no one ever feels like they have made it. I have the same concern about being in Cali, and though there is more pressure on that coast to have the S model etc, I think people are more laid back. But the funny thing is, the corporate attitude is so pervasive here, yet we are losing corporate headquarters and people due to the taxes and the high cost of living. I would have loved to bought in Marin county five years ago, but my understanding is that California real estate is very cyclical. I could be wrong but I feel like I missed the boat. I think it's also good from a community minded perspective to be a big fish in a small community.
It is a boom and bust economy and housing prices are high right now, no doubt about that. But the median home price in Marin is $1M which is easily affordable to you. North of Marin the median home price in Sonoma County drops to $500K. If you are optimizing for money either one may not be the best location. You can get much more house for your money most other areas in the U.S. If you want to optimize for weather, scenery, day trips, state parks and national forests, paddle sports, regional parks and cultural attractions, it may be a place to add to your short list of places to consider moving to.
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Old 10-17-2015, 02:28 PM   #55
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Let me respectfully suggest that you don't need to leave Connecticut to escape the Fairfield County rat race. Just move east of Bridgeport. You could have quite a nice, low key and low stress life up in the Valley, or over in New Haven County. For many years I commuted from Milford into Manhattan. Yes, it was a bit longer on the train, but being able to live in a more middle class community was worth the extra time.
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Old 10-17-2015, 03:44 PM   #56
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StuckinCT, I admire your ability to handle volatility. Ordinarily I wouldn't even reply to someone who has a net worth of 7 - 8 million. You are simply living in a different world than many (most) of the rest of us are. Regarding your estimates of losses, I do wholeheartedly agree that dividend stocks are much preferred and the plan to be consume only the dividends is great. However, those stocks certainly go up and down by a lot. GE, went down by more than 50% during the great recession. It's dividend did as well.

It is a good plan to be at 80% stocks if you can afford to handle this sort of volatility, which in your case due to the rather extreme high net worth, you can. Heck, does it really matter if you are 100% stocks, or 100% cash? I suspect that you probably could consume pure cash and have what many of us would think of as a result quite comfortable living, including sending the kids to college, etc. But I digress...

My estimate of income from a 45% stocks and 55% bonds portfolio I think, respectfully disagreeing with your numbers, is 6% as calculated by 10% last century average return of stocks *.45 plus 3% return of the blend of long and mid term indexes of good bonds (roughly half corporate and half treasuries) *. 55 = 6%.

It is fairly well known that long term treasuries are the best counter to declining stocks in a downturn market.

None of us have great choices right now. The stock market is still extremely overvalued, but so are bonds.

I have run simulations using both Vanguard and Fidelity tools to compare the 60/40 portfolio vs the 40/60 portfolio of stocks vs bonds and the results actually are extremely close on predicting the probability of money lasting my 94 year old estimated life.

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Old 10-17-2015, 03:47 PM   #57
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Let me respectfully suggest that you don't need to leave Connecticut to escape the Fairfield County rat race. Just move east of Bridgeport. You could have quite a nice, low key and low stress life up in the Valley, or over in New Haven County. For many years I commuted from Milford into Manhattan. Yes, it was a bit longer on the train, but being able to live in a more middle class community was worth the extra time.
There is a part of me that definitely loves eastern CT, I grew going to Mystic area in the summers, and the Guilford Madison area is quite nice as is Milford, I used to fish the mouth of the Housy every spring. I think though that this state is in decline. If there were a place where I thought things wer on the upswing I would move there in a heart beat. I'd like to make something on my house! Real estate hasn't budged in twenty years in the Hartford suburbs, they have missed two cycles. Our governor and representatives are ruining the state and I expect others to follow GE out of here. Our tax base is too dependent on the investment banks and hedge funds in Fairfield county and they're all leaving too. I hate to be a Debbie downer, hopefully things will come back one day.
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Old 10-17-2015, 03:50 PM   #58
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So if you are more comfortable with more stocks, it's OK. If you are more comfortable with a little more bonds, that is ok too.

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Old 10-17-2015, 05:53 PM   #59
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So if you are more comfortable with more stocks, it's OK. If you are more comfortable with a little more bonds, that is ok too.

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Too funny and fair point. There was a good article in Barron's this weekend on allocations. I also use Blackrock ishare model allocations, as a guide. I think if you are in individual bonds or ETFs with defined maturities, you have less exposure too to interest rate risk, ie if rates go up.
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Old 10-18-2015, 07:17 PM   #60
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I think your worries about California is somewhat unfounded. All the cities you've listed are crazy expensive. There much nicer area and great school district. Much more laid back than La Jolla, Pacific Palisades, Laguna, Marin county. If you have relatives in California, it makes a lot more sense to move here.


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