Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
[toe -> water]
Old 07-12-2006, 06:14 PM   #1
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 473
[toe -> water]

Greetings from Scrooge, folks. I have been lurking for a number of months and finally decided to post and thank you all for your work contributions here. I thought I had a pretty good grasp of my retirement options, risk tolerance and such, but I have found a lot of information here that I had either never run into (like 72t and RMDs) or didn't fully realize the ramifications of. My "Retirement" bookmark folder has grown tremendously since January and that's always a good thing.

At first I thought that FIRECalc covered all the important areas, but eventually I found the "Annual spending" line, whether adjusted for the 95% rule or not, to be too much of a simplification of my anticipated expense curve over the coming decades. I ended up writing my own retirement calculator, which is vastly inferior to FIREcalc on the earnings side, but much more thorough on the spending side. It estimates yearly taxes, individual-vs-HIPPA insurance costs as I age, IRA-to-Roth conversions, one time costs like car purchases, RMDs and so forth. Unfortunately, it's unlikely to be of much use to anybody else since it makes too many assumptions about my personal circumstances and lifestyle, but it was definitely inspired by FIREcalc and I would like to thank its authors for the idea!

A little bit about myself. I am 40, male, single and work in IT as my avatar and the last paragraph would suggest I am worth about $750K, including a $350K+ mortgage-free house in the mid-Atlantic region, almost $200K in 401k and $200K in cash and 4-week bills. I make around $100K/y, give or take minor bonuses, spend $15-20K/y, put $15K+employer match into 401k and $35-40K in taxable accounts. I could probably retire at any time, move to a low cost area and live off my savings on $13K/year plus health insurance, although the impact of the latter is hard to predict. I am not 100% sure that I want to retire this early (more on it below) and even if I was sure I would probably spend a few more years feathering the nest. As my current asset allocation outlined above indicates, I am a very conservative investor.

I wasn't always my current frugal self, I was actually quite the free spender 20 years ago. My money management skills were poor to non-existent and I was more interested in liberal arts pursuits than anything else. I ended up with a science degree almost by accident and stumbled into the IT field also by accident. I wasn't really interested in my work in my early 20s, it was just a way to make a living and finance my -- in retrospect unwise -- spending decisions and various self-imposed obligations.

Naturally, I had a rude awakening in a couple of years when I found myself on the verge of losing my job and no money in the bank to fall back on. That turned out to be a very good thing since it made me think about my finances and get rid of the obligations that I had accumulated. It also made me work harder and pretty soon I discovered that I was enjoying my work. Over the following 15 years I was a borderline workaholic, traveling all over the country, sometimes working up to 100+ hours/week and sacrificing social life for the sake of my career. I didn't make the millions that some IT people made in the late 1990s, but then again I dind't lose my shirt or have a heart attack like some other people that I know did. Granted, it irks me some that I am making $100K while my customers are paying my employer $300-500K for my services, but overall I have no regrets.

Another good thing that happened to me when I was around 25 was a revealing experience that I had when I was given an unexpected 20%+ raise. I remember studying my checkbook a few months later and wondering where all that extra money had gone. Apparently, my spending habits automatically adjusted themselves to accommodate the raise. It was a quite a revelation at the time, although now it seems obvious.

The next day I went out and bought a ledger. I entered every single expense that I incurred over the next two years into that ledger and pretty soon I knew exactly where my money was going. (I still have the ledger and in a way it reads like a diary). Next I put myself on a budget, which proved to be more painful than I anticipated, but by and large I managed to stick to it. Soon I noticed that my bank account was -- for the first time in my life! -- growing. In a couple of years I had $25K in the bank, bought a house, began contributing to 401k and, most importantly, kept my spending flat while my income was rising. Here I am, 15 years later, almost able to retire at 40, something that I would have never thought possible in my 20s.

I should also note that my existence hasn't been exactly Spartan, I just tried to be smart about which ones of my interests I pursued and how I pursued them. For example, I spent 9 days in Hawaii (all 4 major islands) a few years ago and the whole thing cost me under $1.5K. I drive a reliable, safe and roomy mid-size sedan, but I paid only $17K for it and not $25K+ that my make/model usually goes for. I had done my homework, knew what I wanted, didn't need any of the options, waited for a manufacturer rebate, set up automatic e-mail notifications for that exact configuration and so on. I'll drive it until it falls apart 15 years from now.

By the way, if some of the details above are a little vague, it's because some people's backgrounds are more easily identifiable than others'. "High school -> college -> office job" may not tell you much, but "bodybuilder -> actor -> politician" is a different story Bluehero's, aka Bob from Portland, Tektronix case (http://early-retirement.org/forums/i...3091#msg143091) would be a recent example.

Anyway, fast forward to 2004-2005. That's when my workaholic lifestyle began to catch up with me. Health problems, sudden realization that I am half way to the finish line, loss of interest in what I do at work, borderline depression, the works -- a classic midlife crisis. I am still not sure that I want to retire yet, perhaps I just need to find another job, but it's food for thought.

Another thing that bothers me is that the IT areas that I am an expert in are fast going the way of the dinosaurs. My services are still needed, but the types of projects that I am getting are increasingly uninteresting and sometimes unpleasant as the niche is getting smaller and smaller. Many if not most of the brighter people in the field have moved on and of the ones that remain, quite a few are just coasting while waiting for retirement, which tends to poison the environment I could try to move on as well, but it would be a challenge and I am not sure I am up to it any more.

This is getting long, I better stop while I am ahead. I may have some more specific questions later on, but for now I'll just use this opportunity to once again thank all of you for many hours of enlightening and thought-provoking reading
__________________

__________________
Scrooge is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Re: [toe -> water]
Old 07-12-2006, 08:09 PM   #2
Administrator
Gumby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 9,151
Re: [toe -> water]

Welcome aboard Scrooge. Spending only $15-20K per year -- that's really impresssive. Tracking where your all money goes is a very sobering experience. I do it periodically and am sometimes appalled at my spendthrift ways.
__________________

__________________
Living an analog life in the Digital Age.
Gumby is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: [toe -> water]
Old 07-13-2006, 02:44 AM   #3
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Duesseldorf, Germany
Posts: 942
Re: [toe -> water]

Hi,
here is another long-time tracker of expenses. We track daily in a calender and produce a monthly overview and balance sheet.
Most of our saving is done automatic by monthly money transfers to various investment vehicles. We only see that money on our accounts for a second before it is transferred. As we set up and increased this automatic transfers at times when our income increased we did not get used to spending big.
This does not mean that we do not enjoy what money can buy...
One way to cope with change of technology would be to develop from tech jobs more into managerial tasks that would be existing regardless of the tech details.
But these jobs can be more stress and less fulfilling.
Take your time to explore other options. Even in ER you would need to fill your day with interesting and stimulating tasks and hobbies. Some of these could work as new job opportunities if your IT environment becomes obsolete.
Take care,
Chris
__________________
chris2008 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: [toe -> water]
Old 07-13-2006, 06:09 AM   #4
 
Posts: n/a
Re: [toe -> water]

Quote:
"bodybuilder -> actor -> politician" is a different story Cheesy
Hey we had a guy like that here in Minnesota. He ended up being our Governor. 8)
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Re: [toe -> water]
Old 07-13-2006, 06:28 AM   #5
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
REWahoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas Hill Country
Posts: 38,940
Re: [toe -> water]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge
"bodybuilder -> actor -> politician" is a different story
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
Hey we had a guy like that here in Minnesota. He ended up being our Governor. 8)
Uh Oh. We've got something like that going on here in the governors race. Only it's more along the lines of "singer -> songwriter -> novelist -> politician" . Here are some comments from his campaign:

* On gay marriage: "They have every right to be as miserable as the rest of us."

* "I just want Texas to be number one in something other than executions, toll roads and property taxes."

* On the possibility of losing: "If I lose this race I will retire in a petulant snit," he said. "I'm not going to go out gracefully, I promise you."


__________________
Numbers is hard.

The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence. - Charles Bukowski

Retired in 2005 at age 58, no pension

REWahoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: [toe -> water]
Old 07-13-2006, 03:25 PM   #6
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 322
Re: [toe -> water]

Hey thats the same line I give to my married friends when they ask when will I get married.
That and misery loves company
__________________
spideyrdpd is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: [toe -> water]
Old 07-13-2006, 05:51 PM   #7
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 473
Re: [toe -> water]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gumby
Welcome aboard Scrooge.
Thanks!*

Quote:
Spending only $15-20K per year -- that's really impresssive.
Hey, that's why I chose this user name* 8) It's really not that hard to do when your house is paid off and the homestead exemption (a partial one in my case) limits your tax bill. Also, my health insurance is provided by my employer. I have a nasty commute right now, but at least the client is paying for mileage, which helps. My baseline expenses are under $15K, but the house is getting older and I am not exactly, ahem, a do it yourself person, so I can spend anywhere from $0 to $5K/y extra on the house depending on what needs replacing. The last 12 months have been expensive: a new air conditioner, a new toilet, additional plumbing work, a paint job, etc. I am almost up to $21K for the period

Quote:
Tracking where your all money goes is a very sobering experience.
I stopped keeping track of every dollar after a two year period once my brain was rewired properly I keep the ledger as a memento and as the closest thing I have to a diary. I still go over my finances from time to time to make sure I am in the right ballpark, but I no longer sweat a few bucks here and there. Time is money and the time you spend on keeping track of your money is money too.

Quote:
I do it periodically and am sometimes appalled at my spendthrift ways.
Once you stop asking questions like "Can I afford this?" (an excellent way to keep your net worth as close to $0 as possible) and start asking questions like "Is the money that I would spend on this item worth having to work an extra X days when I am older?", everything else falls into place, or at least it did in my case.

Another thing that I have noticed is that it helps to determine what you really want in life and why you want it. I used to make fun of people who tried to keep up with the Joneses, but then I asked myself: "Why did I buy that Oxford English Dictionary?" Sure, it's a nice and even occasionally useful toy, but was it really worth the hundreds of dollars that I spent on it? Upon reflection, I realized that I was trying to live up to my peers' (of decades past) expectations and keep up a sophisticated literati image. And in a way I still do, but at least now I do it on the cheap

Once I figured out what I wanted and why I wanted it, I assigned relative weights to my wants and looked for the cheapest way to minimax them. For example, it's easy to buy used books on the Internet dirt cheap and if it's a particularly rare book, you can always set up want lists that will send you an e-mail whenever one of your "wants" is available for less than whatever you tell the Web site to use as the threshold value. By the time I was done, my book budget was cut to a few hundred (from a few thousand) dollars per year.

Rinse and repeat with the rest of your expenses and suddenly many of them all but disappear. As Cutthroat says, it helps to be a really cheap bastard 8)
__________________
Scrooge is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: [toe -> water]
Old 07-13-2006, 06:13 PM   #8
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 473
Re: [toe -> water]

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris2008
One way to cope with change of technology would be to develop from tech jobs more into managerial tasks that would be existing regardless of the tech details.

But these jobs can be more stress and less fulfilling.
Quite so. I tried a semi-managerial position about 10 years ago and my experience was not a very happy one. As I wrote on another forum here:

Quote:
That's pretty much what happened to me when I was 29-32. I found myself doing my usual technical stuff 80-90% of the time while semi-supervising one other employee at a time.

In my case, I found it to be not worth it. Of the three employees that I "serially managed", one was talented but a total jerk (to use a technical term), one was a nice and hard working guy who was unable to overcome his background and (what passed for) education, and the third one was a pleasure to work with.

I figured that one out of three was a poor batting average and went back to being a full time techie. Perhaps I gave up too soon, but oh well...
To be a little more specific, I do very well managing my clients' projects as long as there is no line management involved. Typically, my client has a problem or a "hot" project, I fly in, work with their inhouse team, contractors, vendors, etc, fix the problem (usually it ends up being multiple problems), train their in-house personnel, write their SOPs, etc. That's what they pay my company the big bucks for, basically. I get to interact with a lot of onsite people, manage the project plan, etc, but I never manage any people per se because they are my client's employees.

Quote:
Take your time to explore other options.
In one of those coincidences that life sometimes throws at you, my management called me earlier today and told me that they will be likely reassigning me from the current (boring repetitive) project to a new project that promises to be a lot of fun, just like in the good old days. Just goes to show that you never know, although this time I will make an effort not to go back to my workaholic habits

Quote:
Even in ER you would need to fill your day with interesting and stimulating tasks and hobbies.
I think I am all set in that respect. I was a culture vulture in my youth and although I am no longer obssessive about it, I still have enough interests to keep me going for a few hundred years as of the last count* 8)

Quote:
Some of these could work as new job opportunities* if your IT environment becomes obsolete.
That's true. I once knew a fairly high ranking officer who retired from the military, opened a used bookstore and has been exceedingly happy ever since.
__________________
Scrooge is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: [toe -> water]
Old 07-13-2006, 06:46 PM   #9
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Brat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 5,670
Re: [toe -> water]

I am not an IT person, but have been around long enough to see technology cycles.* If you have a time horizon of 10 years or less your employer's clients will need someone like you to unravel legacy systems - you will be one of the few who understand them.* Because you are so close to FI don't expend yourself in professional upgrades unless you really want to.

The link to the Tek guy made me smile as I looked back at his postings.* Tektronix has an interesting workforce, lots of tinkerers and closet Phds.* They have had to make changes over the years just as HP has had to do, except Tek spun out what tinkerers developed to give them the freedom to develop.* It was an adjustment for many to leave what they felt was a predictable environment and be thrust into venture level firms.

__________________
Duck bjorn.
Brat is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: [toe -> water]
Old 07-13-2006, 08:31 PM   #10
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 473
Re: [toe -> water]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brat
If you have a time horizon of 10 years or less your employer's clients will need someone like you to unravel legacy systems - you will be one of the few who understand them.* Because you are so close to FI don't expend yourself in professional upgrades unless you really want to.
Oh yes, that's definitely one of the options that I have been considering. In fact, it's the default option -- keep doing what I am doing for a few more years until the nest is feathered to my satisfaction and/or the work gets to be too frustrating.

The problem with this otherwise perfectly viable strategy is that niche legacy system support is similar to a co-dependent relationship, where you both need each other even though you may not like each other. That's a recipe for a rather unpleasant work experience. Is that how I want to spend the rest of my working life*
__________________
Scrooge is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: [toe -> water]
Old 07-13-2006, 08:37 PM   #11
Administrator
Gumby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 9,151
Re: [toe -> water]

..
__________________
Living an analog life in the Digital Age.
Gumby is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: [toe -> water]
Old 07-13-2006, 08:55 PM   #12
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 473
Re: [toe -> water]

B&N and Borders with their tiny 100,000+ selections are so boring once you discover the wonderful world of online books. I own almost every book by every author that I am even peripherally interested in (in one case I have a copy of a book that the author himself doesn't have!) and I got most of them for a few bucks even though it took me 10 years. Almost none of them are signed first editions, many are not even hardbacks, but hey, the words are all there!*

Classic movies has been another area where I was able to build up a huge (thousands of DVDs) collection on the cheap. Grab a DVD recorder, find some decent DVDs online (not the overpriced junk at regular stores) and in a few years you will have all the classics too! Sure, the quality is marginally lower than what you would get on a DVD-V and they may not last as long, but you will be paying <$0.30 per disk plus $50/month for basic cable versus $5-10-20 for a DVD-V. Once again, it helps to be a really cheap bastard

Now, if only I had enough time to read/watch them all* One of the better reasons to consider ER...
__________________
Scrooge is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: [toe -> water]
Old 07-13-2006, 10:29 PM   #13
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Brat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 5,670
Re: [toe -> water]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge
the default option -- keep doing what I am doing for a few more years until the nest is feathered to my satisfaction and/or the work gets to be too frustrating.

The problem with this otherwise perfectly viable strategy is that niche legacy system support is similar to a co-dependent relationship, where you both need each other even though you may not like each other. That's a recipe for a rather unpleasant work experience. Is that how I want to spend the rest of my working life*
Well, your other options include joining management or upgrade to state of the art if you want to stay on your current track.* A side track would be an IT recruiter, but they don't command what you are currently earning.*
__________________
Duck bjorn.
Brat is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: [toe -> water]
Old 07-14-2006, 07:30 PM   #14
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 473
Re: [toe -> water]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brat
Well, your other options include joining management or upgrade to state of the art if you want to stay on your current track.
I don't think I ever seriously considered the management track. I suppose I can always try it if things really go south and the 9 mm solution doesn't cut it*

Upgrading to the state of the art is an option, but there is a caveat. I can relatively easy transmogrify into a run of the mill Unix administrator and take a modest paycut. However, 15 years of hard work in my chosen area have put me in the top 2-3% (not the top 1%, though) of my peers. It can be very satisfying to be the "go-to" person, the guy who has all the answers, the man who can tell the client what is really going on and how to fix it. My skills command respect, admiration, sometimes even awe, and that can be addictive. It was a big part of what kept me burning the midnight oil all these years.

Moving from that kind of position to a middle of the road technical position and becoming yet another cog in the machine is likely to be irritating at best and actively painful at worst. Not to mention mind numbing compared to the relatively intricate things that I have done in the past. If I needed that next paycheck to survive, I would certainly do it, but as it is, it's not a very attractive option.

On the other hand, replicating what I did in my late 20s and 30s and climbing all the way to the top of the pyramid again now that I am 40+ looks like a daunting proposition that is more likely to lead to a heart attack than success and fulfillment. Sure, many of the skills that I have acquired over the years are transferrable, but I am no longer the superquick study that I was in my 20s.

Decisions, decisions...*
__________________
Scrooge is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: [toe -> water]
Old 09-27-2006, 10:47 PM   #15
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 473
Re: [toe -> water]

A quick update. A few weeks ago I wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge
In one of those coincidences that life sometimes throws at you, my management called me earlier today and told me that they will be likely reassigning me from the current (boring repetitive) project to a new project that promises to be a lot of fun, just like in the good old days.
Although it took longer than expected, the new project finally jelled together a month ago and I am now working in the Rocky Mountains region.

Knock on wood, but so far everything looks just as I hoped it would be: the work is much more interesting -- almost cutting edge for a change -- my skills are in demand and much appreciated by the client, and the Rocky Mountains (which I love) are as beautiful as ever. I am learning new tricks and expanding my skill set, which is always a good thing. If things continue going well, I may even consider taking a permanent position here and selling the house on the East Coast.

I am not thinking (much) about ER at the moment since things are going so well. Granted, all good things come to an end sooner or later, and this fun project may either end or turn sour at any time, but that's what Plan B is for

Quote:
Just goes to show that you never know, although this time I will make an effort not to go back to my workaholic habits
Again, knock on wood, but I am working just over 40 hours a week right now and there are no signs that it will change in the foreseeable future. It's been a long time since I could be seen smiling on my way to work. Here is to hoping that things stay that way! *
__________________
Scrooge is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: [toe -> water]
Old 09-28-2006, 05:37 AM   #16
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 9,593
Re: [toe -> water]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge
It's been a long time since I could be seen smiling on my way to work.
Isn't it great when that happens? Enjoy it while it lasts, and be ready with Plan B.
__________________
Meadbh is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: [toe -> water]
Old 09-28-2006, 06:04 AM   #17
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 260
Re: [toe -> water]

Good post Scrooge - welcome to the board. Haven't you been hear before though? I think I remember that name somewhere....
__________________
virginia is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: [toe -> water]
Old 09-28-2006, 08:22 AM   #18
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 473
Re: [toe -> water]

Well, this was my introductory thread a couple of months back, but then I posted quite a bit in late July - August. Check the post count
__________________
Scrooge is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: [toe -> water]
Old 09-28-2006, 08:56 AM   #19
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 2,224
Re: [toe -> water]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge

Another thing that bothers me is that the IT areas that I am an expert in are fast going the way of the dinosaurs. My services are still needed, but the types of projects that I am getting are increasingly uninteresting and sometimes unpleasant as the niche is getting smaller and smaller. Many if not most of the brighter people in the field have moved on and of the ones that remain, quite a few are just coasting while waiting for retirement, which tends to poison the environment I could try to move on as well, but it would be a challenge and I am not sure I am up to it any more.

[/quote

Welcome, Scrooge
Maybe someone else mentioned it...........sounds like a PERFECT scenario to freelance and transition to semi and then full ER. A buddy of mine says "if I feel like workin, I answer the phone, otherwise let it ring.
__________________
...with no reasonable expectation for ER, I'm just here auditing the AP class.Retired 8/1/15.
jazz4cash is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: [toe -> water]
Old 09-28-2006, 09:13 AM   #20
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
mickeyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Texas~29N/98W
Posts: 5,653
Re: [toe -> water]

I'm Curious...

Quote:
I have been lurking for a number of months and finally decided to post
How did you accumulate 472 posts on this forum if this is your initial post?
__________________

__________________
Part-Owner of Texas

Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. Groucho Marx

In dire need of: faster horses, younger woman, older whiskey, more money.
mickeyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Reader --> Poster transition UVaOK Hi, I am... 6 03-06-2006 09:48 PM
Outlooks > 30 years....Are we too optimistic?? amt FIRE and Money 6 02-03-2004 03:27 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:15 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.