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Old 09-07-2014, 06:41 PM   #141
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ERD50 has a elitists view . . .
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. . .they are in my view. anti American worker and anti America.

Imagine, if you will, that you are at a cocktail party with a number of intelligent, interesting people from all around the world. They have a wide variety of backgrounds, including different educations, different occupations, etc. At the party, you start discussing economic issues with some of the others. Everyone approaches the topic from a different perspective, reflecting their own history and interests.

You might disagree with certain other guests at the party. You might explain why from your point of view, given your particular concerns, things should be done one way and not another. They might explain things from their own points of view. You and another guest may never be able to reconcile your views. But I suspect that regardless of this gap, you would find a way to be polite to that person. After all, you would like to be a good guest at the party. So you would be unlikely to call a Canadian, say, anti-American merely because from her point of view, things should be done in a way that is more favorable to Canada than the US. Nor would you rudely call someone an elitist directly to their face. You would understand that they come from a different place, with a different outlook and just disagree with your position. You may never become fast friends with them due to these differences, but surely you would find a way to be cordial.

So why behave differently here?
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Old 09-07-2014, 06:53 PM   #142
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Maybe it's all our fault. We want appreciation and our dividends. Companies have to cut training costs. Lower labor costs. Stop funding pensions, because this quarters EPS is more important than their long term success or the employees. Government then gives them tax welfare. All to pay off the shareholders. But now we have low paid, untrained, no retirement sections of the economy, competing with outsourcing. Oh, and their poor, so their schools dont have as much cash as the nicer areas where "hard workers" live.


Hey, but i get mine.

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Yes its all been done behind the mask of shareholder value?

My 401k and Roth and brokerage accounts have all done so well in the last 4 to 5 years but I just don't feel that great about it?

I have worked hard and lived below my means but knowing so many Americans have been left out of this recovery really bothers me.

Wish I didn't care.
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Old 09-07-2014, 07:08 PM   #143
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Imagine, if you will, that you are at a cocktail party with a number of intelligent, interesting people from all around the world. They have a wide variety of backgrounds, including different educations, different occupations, etc. At the party, you start discussing economic issues with some of the others. Everyone approaches the topic from a different perspective, reflecting their own history and interests.

You might disagree with certain other guests at the party. You might explain why from your point of view, given your particular concerns, things should be done one way and not another. They might explain things from their own points of view. You and another guest may never be able to reconcile your views. But I suspect that regardless of this gap, you would find a way to be polite to that person. After all, you would like to be a good guest at the party. So you would be unlikely to call a Canadian, say, anti-American merely because from her point of view, things should be done in a way that is more favorable to Canada than the US. Nor would you rudely call someone an elitist directly to their face. You would understand that they come from a different place, with a different outlook and just disagree with your position. You may never become fast friends with them due to these differences, but surely you would find a way to be cordial.

So why behave differently here?
Ok let me say I am TRULY sorry.

When I said anti american I didn't mean literally. I just meant from a economic perspective?

I would imagine citizens worldwide root for their own countries and citizens as well? I am a global investor and I work for a global company but I feel strongly about rebuilding our outsourced middle-class .

The way things are going I will probably be banned from this website and I will just go back to lurking.
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Old 09-07-2014, 07:14 PM   #144
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Not long after I joined, I wrote something that could have been taken as a bit rude. Someone tactfully pointed that out and an apology (from me) was in order.

I am sorry. Yes I am kind of an idiot.

I probably should stop posting.
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Old 09-07-2014, 07:25 PM   #145
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I have worked hard and lived below my means but knowing so many Americans have been left out of this recovery really bothers me.

Wish I didn't care.
I have done those things too (LBYM) and I also care if for no other reason that I live here too.

But the world is not a static place. Things move, circumstances change, and one of the great things about human beings as a species they are, if nothing else, adaptable to changing circumstances. That evolutionary adaptation (the ability to adapt) is what put them at the top of the food chain.

Recommended reading: Who Moved My Cheese?

And those who refuse to adapt or expect things to stay the same, will be left behind. That is evolution, harsh as it is. Some are dramatic, and those win the infamous and sometimes humorous (but sadly, fictional) Darwin Award.

So when a factory moves toward further automation in order to compete in a worldwide market the workers there have two choices. They can find other work or they can adapt and learn to work with, service and repair those machines that do their former jobs faster/better/cheaper than they do.

Given the advances in robotics it isn't hard to visualize a world in which janitorial jobs are extinct just like elevator operators, completely taken over by machines. That's not being anti-American or anti-worker.

It is simply facing the gritty reality that the world and the marketplace and the employment market change, evolve and adapt, just as they always have and hopefully always will.
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Old 09-07-2014, 07:30 PM   #146
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Imagine, if you will, that you are at a cocktail party with a number of intelligent, interesting people from all around the world. They have a wide variety of backgrounds, including different educations, different occupations, etc. At the party, you start discussing economic issues with some of the others. Everyone approaches the topic from a different perspective, reflecting their own history and interests.

You might disagree with certain other guests at the party. You might explain why from your point of view, given your particular concerns, things should be done one way and not another. They might explain things from their own points of view. You and another guest may never be able to reconcile your views. But I suspect that regardless of this gap, you would find a way to be polite to that person. After all, you would like to be a good guest at the party. So you would be unlikely to call a Canadian, say, anti-American merely because from her point of view, things should be done in a way that is more favorable to Canada than the US. Nor would you rudely call someone an elitist directly to their face. You would understand that they come from a different place, with a different outlook and just disagree with your position. You may never become fast friends with them due to these differences, but surely you would find a way to be cordial.

So why behave differently here?
And since the caviar served with the cocktails did not agree with me, I am about to pass some lethal gas next to the loudest, rudest party guest. Still want to throw canapés?
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Old 09-07-2014, 08:07 PM   #147
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No I get it. Thats clear.

Corporate America uses protectionism where and when it benefits them? Right?

But American workers don't? Why?

Because there is no balance in our economy? Get it?

Corporate America uses protectionism in America in the Right to work states keeping wages really low. Get it?

Thats the writing on the wall. See it?
Yes, Corporate America will use any and all leverage at it's disposal and some of Corporate America is run by greedy SOB's who care about no one but themselves. Other parts of Corporate America strive to do well while doing well by both their customers and their employees, take Costco for example. That doesn't change the fact that they have to compete on a global level now and lower class workers are also competing on that global level. Setting a higher minimum wage won't change that fact. Education will. And I should have said better education earlier rather than "more education."

You want to earn more? You have to work harder, better, smarter and be more productive. The U.S. either does that as a country or it will be left in somebody else's dust no matter how high the minimum wage is.

You keep referencing Corporate America but times are changing and corporations know no boundaries and have no real allegiance except to the next quarter's numbers.
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Old 09-07-2014, 08:18 PM   #148
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I have done those things too (LBYM) and I also care if for no other reason that I live here too.

But the world is not a static place. Things move, circumstances change, and one of the great things about human beings as a species they are, if nothing else, adaptable to changing circumstances. That evolutionary adaptation (the ability to adapt) is what put them at the top of the food chain.

Recommended reading: Who Moved My Cheese?

And those who refuse to adapt or expect things to stay the same, will be left behind. That is evolution, harsh as it is. Some are dramatic, and those win the infamous and sometimes humorous (but sadly, fictional) Darwin Award.

So when a factory moves toward further automation in order to compete in a worldwide market the workers there have two choices. They can find other work or they can adapt and learn to work with, service and repair those machines that do their former jobs faster/better/cheaper than they do.

Given the advances in robotics it isn't hard to visualize a world in which janitorial jobs are extinct just like elevator operators, completely taken over by machines. That's not being anti-American or anti-worker.

It is simply facing the gritty reality that the world and the marketplace and the employment market change, evolve and adapt, just as they always have and hopefully always will.
That is a great post. Thanks.
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Old 09-07-2014, 08:37 PM   #149
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What ever happened to working harder, doing an outstanding job, taking more responsibility, and getting promoted to get a raise?



I don't understand this "We are worth $$ so pay up or we'll shut you down" stuff.

Companies for the most part today dont promote and hand out raises. Staying at the same company today often means something is wrong with you that no one else has poached you. At least in tech, thats true.


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Old 09-07-2014, 08:43 PM   #150
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Yes, Corporate America will use any and all leverage at it's disposal and some of Corporate America is run by greedy SOB's who care about no one but themselves. Other parts of Corporate America strive to do well while doing well by both their customers and their employees, take Costco for example. That doesn't change the fact that they have to compete on a global level now and lower class workers are also competing on that global level. Setting a higher minimum wage won't change that fact. Education will. And I should have said better education earlier rather than "more education."

You want to earn more? You have to work harder, better, smarter and be more productive. The U.S. either does that as a country or it will be left in somebody else's dust no matter how high the minimum wage is.

You keep referencing Corporate America but times are changing and corporations know no boundaries and have no real allegiance except to the next quarter's numbers.
I shop at costco and I agree they are a great company.

I agree about education but it seems like we are over educating some of our youth.
Not sure if a college degree works for some people considering the costs of a college degree? There should be educational alternatives for some people who don't belong in college.

Yes corporate America doesn't know borders and is using the world as it sees fit.
As a shareholder I would love to see some balance between employees and shareholders both getting rewarded?

If minimum wage goes to $15 I think it would be great and we would see a immediate jolt to the economy.
But if not than so be it. It does seem like there is some societal pressure to raise it voluntarily?

The way the world is going we will probably see a global minimum wage of some type in our lifetimes.

I have to be honest sometimes when I buy fast-food I almost feel guilty buying off the dollar menu because its so cheap and I make a great income. Sad I know. But I am so into living below my means I can't help it.
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Old 09-07-2014, 08:45 PM   #151
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Companies for the most part today dont promote and hand out raises. Staying at the same company today often means something is wrong with you that no one else has poached you. At least in tech, thats true.


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But it amounts to the same thing. Whether you make the next jump up by getting promoted or you do so by going elsewhere, it is a recognition of your talent and value added.
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Old 09-07-2014, 09:07 PM   #152
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What ever happened to working harder, doing an outstanding job, taking more responsibility, and getting promoted to get a raise?

I don't understand this "We are worth $$ so pay up or we'll shut you down" stuff.
Yes. What did happen to working harder,doing an outstanding job,climbing up the ladder and getting promoted?

It seems those days of rewarding employees for hard work are long gone?

Seems like workers are now disposable? shown the door once they become too expensive and experienced?

Its no wonder many millennials are mad and blame baby boomers for this new disposable job economy?

If fast food workers are willing to sit in the street and get arrested don't you think there is something going on in our society and economy?

When I made minimum wage years ago I could have never imagined this world we are living in now?
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Old 09-07-2014, 09:19 PM   #153
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I have done those things too (LBYM) and I also care if for no other reason that I live here too.

But the world is not a static place. Things move, circumstances change, and one of the great things about human beings as a species they are, if nothing else, adaptable to changing circumstances. That evolutionary adaptation (the ability to adapt) is what put them at the top of the food chain.

Recommended reading: Who Moved My Cheese?

And those who refuse to adapt or expect things to stay the same, will be left behind. That is evolution, harsh as it is. Some are dramatic, and those win the infamous and sometimes humorous (but sadly, fictional) Darwin Award.

......

It is simply facing the gritty reality that the world and the marketplace and the employment market change, evolve and adapt, just as they always have and hopefully always will.
exactly. it is a matter of survival. that's why people have more than one job. That's why my friend that is an orderly at a hospital also has a landscape business on the side. That's why my career consists of two types of geologist; three types of cartographer; and two types of project manager. I also ended up moving my residence, for work purposes, 30 times in 15 years. For a zillion reasons, all people can't do that. Lots of people seem to be attached to their geographic and/or familial location. I was always amazed at people whose families had resided in the same place for over 100 years in the USA. In other countries, that could be several hundred years. The multinational corporations are pitting these people against each other. except things like fast food can not be relocated. so let the workers try for more money. nothing wrong with that.
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Old 09-07-2014, 09:24 PM   #154
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Perhaps we can have a minimum wage of $2 until you graduate from HS. Then, mandate military service at 18 if you have dropped out.

The market would be forced to pay more for people as many would not be available to work.

As long as we import workers, and export jobs, there will be a surplus of labor.
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Old 09-07-2014, 09:58 PM   #155
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Yes. What did happen to working harder,doing an outstanding job,climbing up the ladder and getting promoted?

It seems those days of rewarding employees for hard work are long gone?

Seems like workers are now disposable? shown the door once they become too expensive and experienced?

Its no wonder many millennials are mad and blame baby boomers for this new disposable job economy?

If fast food workers are willing to sit in the street and get arrested don't you think there is something going on in our society and economy?

When I made minimum wage years ago I could have never imagined this world we are living in now?

I am genuinely curious: in meatspace, do you do that obnoxious thing where every sentence is phrased and pitched like it is a question, even if it is not?
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Old 09-07-2014, 10:02 PM   #156
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I think a person is more likely to get sick from something eaten at a little diner ("hey, somebody ordered the white sauce again this week. Is this still good?") or at home. After all, why believe that the workers in the grocery store where we buy the stuff will be any more diligent about cleanliness and food storage temps than the workers in a McDonalds?
+1

My wife has seen a mother place her baby on top of the organic carrots at QFC while she rummaged through her purse for something. Imagine that healthy carrot crunch if you don't wash it well enough.

Other times I have observed kids handle the broccoli, put it back, then continue to mine gold in their nose.

If you don't pull it out of the ground on your own farm, you really don't know what is going on, fast food or not.
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Old 09-07-2014, 10:02 PM   #157
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If minimum wage goes to $15 I think it would be great and we would see a immediate jolt to the economy.
Every time the minimum wage is raised, there is the discussion about jobs lost either lost to outsourcing or automation.

The minimum wage was last raised in 2009. I can think of 2 classes of jobs that have been significantly reduced or eliminated;

Grocery store Cashiers... I almost always use the automated checkout system.

Parking cashiers... I was just downtown for a concert (The Eagles!). Not a person around. Stick a credit card and parking ticket into a machine and I am free! Same thing with airport parking. Haven't seen a person in the booth for 2 or 3 years now.

Like always, raising the minimum wage will create winners and losers. An increase to $15 will cause (IMO) an aggressive move towards automation where ever the technology is almost ready.
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Old 09-07-2014, 10:06 PM   #158
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I am genuinely curious: in meatspace, do you do that obnoxious thing where every sentence is phrased and pitched like it is a question, even if it is not?
Well. If I place a question mark after a sentence I guess I am writing a sentence that is a question? I think?

Does that answer your question?
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Old 09-07-2014, 10:15 PM   #159
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Every time the minimum wage is raised, there is the discussion about jobs lost either lost to outsourcing or automation.

The minimum wage was last raised in 2009. I can think of 2 classes of jobs that have been significantly reduced or eliminated;

Grocery store Cashiers... I almost always use the automated checkout system.

Parking cashiers... I was just downtown for a concert (The Eagles!). Not a person around. Stick a credit card and parking ticket into a machine and I am free! Same thing with airport parking. Haven't seen a person in the booth for 2 or 3 years now.

Like always, raising the minimum wage will create winners and losers. An increase to $15 will cause (IMO) an aggressive move towards automation where ever the technology is almost ready.
True. But those last workers standing at 15hr will be able to buy a Epic pass and hit The Canyons.

And lets be honest. The move to replace low wage workers with automation is going to happen sooner than later at any wage.
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Old 09-07-2014, 10:15 PM   #160
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I often see anger expressed in the "letters to the editor" section of the local paper expressing disgust at politicians for their failure to "create jobs".

Okay how, exactly, does one "create jobs"?

Someone sees a market opportunity that others have not. They offer a product or service that either no one else does or they've found a way to offer an existing product or service at a lower price.

Someone takes a risk to start a new business. One reads often out how some of them started. Mortgaged their homes, maxed out their credit cards, and once in a while one succeeds, and wildly. These people are celebrated because their risk-taking and hard work was rewarded. Another Horatio Alger story. The forgotten part is that the majority of course go bankrupt and sink into oblivion. They are remembered (if at all) as fools. Well, that's why it is risky to start a new business and why most of us don't!

So as their business grows, they need to hire help. In order to continue to exist a business must show a profit. (Why, in a capitalist society, some people think "profit" is a dirty word is a puzzle to me. It is the sole reason for taking a financial risk in the first place!) So in order to keep their expenses low and make a profit, and thus continue to exist and employ people, the business must obtain the help they need at the lowest possible price, or at least at a price lower than their competitors. That means that if Burger King is paying their workers $7.25/hour then McDonald's cannot afford to pay their workers $15/hour or their expenses, and therefore the price of their products, will price them out of business.

Okay, I get it's a bit more complicated than that.

But here's the thing. Like most of the people on this board I own stocks. Okay, they're in an index fund but they're stocks nonetheless. As a stockholder, I have exactly zero interest in what those businesses are paying their employees.

As a stockholder I only care about one thing: Is this business the best investment for my hard-earned dollars? Will it continue to grow and make a profit and pay dividends and will the stock price continue to increase? If not I don't want to have anything to do with it.

Nothing personal, it's just business.

And people act as if they think the world owes them a "living wage". News flash! The world doesn't owe you anything except, perhaps, the chance to try. A lot of people don't even get that. And that's why those people want to come to America.
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