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3 runners die in marathon..........
Old 10-19-2009, 09:47 AM   #1
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3 runners die in marathon..........

Damn, I knew there was a reason I didn't run in these things.

3 runners die in Detroit marathon | clarionledger.com | The Clarion-Ledger
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Old 10-19-2009, 09:53 AM   #2
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I don't run period.
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Old 10-19-2009, 09:59 AM   #3
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Wow! And it wasn't even hot, and two of the three were young.

Like bbbamI, I don't run. Walking is good exercise for me and I hope to do more of it after ER.
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Old 10-19-2009, 10:07 AM   #4
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I ran 5 marathons myself, albeit a long time ago. A marathon is harder than most folks realize. In my opinion, you have to "work your way up" to the distance, to give your body a chance to adjust. I wonder how many of those that died THIS marathon was their first race, or first time at that distance.

I know a few local clubs that takes folks and put them on a "plan" where they train for 6-8 months and then run a marathon. I think that is stupid and is just asking for trouble.

Before I ran my first marathon, I ran 3 years or HS cross country and a year of college cross country, had many weeks of 60-70 miles under my belt, and 20 some road races. And it STILL was a brutal race for me, I ran 3:48.

I think inexperience, underpreperation and some other factors all contributed to these deaths.........
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Old 10-19-2009, 10:12 AM   #5
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And you guys didn't think that Detroit is a dangerous place.

Seriously, I was shocked to read this in the paper this AM, especially given that 2 of the three were under 40 years old. I'll stick to hiking.
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Old 10-19-2009, 10:19 AM   #6
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I think this is what pulled the women's marathon out of the olympics for a while. I don't think the women had died - just collapsed. Later, it was reinstated when it became clearer that it was a result of poor training, not some inherent inability of women to run long distances.

So - it happens to men too.

Too bad though - seriously.

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Old 10-19-2009, 12:57 PM   #7
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I had a friend who sent me an email with some info on how 'soft' mankind has come.... here is one example...

"Manthropology abounds with other examples:
* Roman legions completed more than one-and-a-half marathons a day carrying more than half their body weight in equipment"

I think "Manthropology" is the book....
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Old 10-19-2009, 01:31 PM   #8
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I'll admit that this scares me a tiny bit. I've run several 5K/10Ks without trouble and am attempting my first half in a month, along with DW. This is DW's first race above a 5K. We've been training for about 8 weeks already, 2-3 short runs of 5 miles during the week and a longer run in the weekend, with 4 more weeks to go. We just ran 8 miles this past weekend. We aren't killing ourselves, but it's a bit harder for DW. We won't actually run 13.1 till the day of the race.
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Old 10-19-2009, 02:25 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderALot View Post
I'll admit that this scares me a tiny bit. I've run several 5K/10Ks without trouble and am attempting my first half in a month, along with DW. This is DW's first race above a 5K. We've been training for about 8 weeks already, 2-3 short runs of 5 miles during the week and a longer run in the weekend, with 4 more weeks to go. We just ran 8 miles this past weekend. We aren't killing ourselves, but it's a bit harder for DW. We won't actually run 13.1 till the day of the race.
There is a small risk. It's just my opinion, but why not have DW do a 10K before the half? You can recover from a 10K in a few days and it will give her an idea of where she is at. it is a BIG JUMP from a 5K to a half marathon.........

The "experts" always say you can run twice as far as your longest training run, but I was never a fan of that plan. Before I ran my second marathon, my training partner and I would do a LONG run every weekend on Sunday, between 15 and 18 miles. Three weeks before the marathon, we would do a 20 miler as the LAST long run, then taper dow to the race........
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Old 10-19-2009, 02:36 PM   #10
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There is a small risk. It's just my opinion, but why not have DW do a 10K before the half? You can recover from a 10K in a few days and it will give her an idea of where she is at. it is a BIG JUMP from a 5K to a half marathon.........
The training program we are using has us doing a 10K next weekend. Yeah, I was suggesting we do a 10K first, but she was pretty excited about it and dedicated to the training and she's been doing so well so far. We've only been running at 12 min/miles, her goal is to finish. My goal is to get under 2 hrs.

Here's the training program we are using:

Half Marathon Training: Novice

Quote:
The "experts" always say you can run twice as far as your longest training run, but I was never a fan of that plan. Before I ran my second marathon, my training partner and I would do a LONG run every weekend on Sunday, between 15 and 18 miles. Three weeks before the marathon, we would do a 20 miler as the LAST long run, then taper dow to the race........
The week before the marathon, we do a 10 mile run. After the 10K this week, we have to do a 9 mile run. So hopefully, we'll be used to the longer mileages.
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Old 10-19-2009, 03:28 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by WanderALot View Post
The training program we are using has us doing a 10K next weekend. Yeah, I was suggesting we do a 10K first, but she was pretty excited about it and dedicated to the training and she's been doing so well so far. We've only been running at 12 min/miles, her goal is to finish. My goal is to get under 2 hrs.
To get under 120 minutes, you'll have to run 9:00 pace, roughly. Are you doing any runs at tha pace OR FASTER to acclimate to race pace? Just wondering.......

Quote:
Here's the training program we are using:

Half Marathon Training: Novice
I like Hal, but I think he's a little optimistic you can run a 13.1 mile race on 3 months of training, averaging less than 20 miles a week........ I think using his MARATHON training guide for a half marathon is a better idea.......

I guess I just overtrained, but I did have some pretty good PRs I set WHILE marathon training........

If this discussion is getting too boring for everyone else,, we could take it offline
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Old 10-19-2009, 03:47 PM   #12
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SO and I once worked up enough energy to watch a comedian entertain while marathoners ran by. Loved the juggling bowling balls part of his routine.

The Urban Dictionary once again has an alternate definition:

Urban Dictionary: manthropology
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Old 10-19-2009, 03:58 PM   #13
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I found these deaths shocking as well, right in my backyard. What's even more frightening is the distances when the runners went down were 11, 12, and 13 miles. NOT 24 to 26 miles!! It was very cold on Saturday here in Detroit area - about 25 degrees F at the start of the race. That might have played a role. Autopsies are still pending. Also frightening is the fact that EMS was on these collapsed runners with proper equiptment and drugs in nearly seconds, to no avail. Puts some fear of God in me on my runs through the deserted parks. Cell phone would certainly not save you.
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Old 10-19-2009, 04:08 PM   #14
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.... Also frightening is the fact that EMS was on these collapsed runners with proper equiptment and drugs in nearly seconds, to no avail. Puts some fear of God in me on my runs through the deserted parks. Cell phone would certainly not save you.
Interesting. It's always telling to see fire trucks and ambulances on stand by: for bike rides, runs, fireworks, Blue Angel flights.
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Old 10-19-2009, 05:02 PM   #15
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To get under 120 minutes, you'll have to run 9:00 pace, roughly. Are you doing any runs at tha pace OR FASTER to acclimate to race pace? Just wondering.......
...
I like Hal, but I think he's a little optimistic you can run a 13.1 mile race on 3 months of training, averaging less than 20 miles a week
Well, the shorter runs are at a faster pace, but DW is not a fast runner so the longer runs are always slower. She's slowly get better though. My 5K times are around 7:45/mile and my 10K times are around 8:25/mile, so hopefully 9:00/mile isn't too far out of reach.

As far as Hal's training method, it does make you run more than 20 miles/week for 3 of the last 4 weeks.

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If this discussion is getting too boring for everyone else,, we could take it offline
I don't see how it could be boring.
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Old 10-19-2009, 07:22 PM   #16
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I ran once... but I had a TV under my arm...
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Old 10-19-2009, 07:25 PM   #17
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it amazed me that people run and like it. seriously, the farthest i ever ran was about 1.3 miles on a treadmill. 10, 15, 20 miles? ummm...no thanks.
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Old 10-19-2009, 08:15 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by WanderALot View Post
Well, the shorter runs are at a faster pace, but DW is not a fast runner so the longer runs are always slower. She's slowly get better though. My 5K times are around 7:45/mile and my 10K times are around 8:25/mile, so hopefully 9:00/mile isn't too far out of reach.
To estimate how fast you can run at a new distance, a rule of thumb is to multiple your time at a known distance by the ratio of the new distance to the old distance raised to the power 1.078. This is from a 1982 (?) article in American Scientist. So if you can run a 10K in 52:11 (8:25/mile), you should be able to run a half marathon (21.1K) in

52:11 * (21.1/10) ^ 1.078 = 1:56:43 (8:55/mile)

Obviously, this is a rough estimate. However, it does suggest that your 9:00/mile goal is reasonable. (To be fair, the 1.078 exponent is for young men. There are other exponents that depend on sex and age. Unfortunately, I don't remember what these are.)

Fatalities in marathons are very rare. The Detroit deaths are likely anomalous. You never hear about all the races or events when no one dies. I was at a friends house Saturday morning. She has an automatic pulse / blood pressure unit. She said her resting pulse was 90, and I said that seemed a little high. She then put the thing on my arm to measure my pulse and blood pressure. My pulse was 36 and my blood pressure was 103/65. Even though I'm grossly out of shape, I still regularly exercise. I'll take vigorous exercise / racing over sitting on the couch any day.
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Old 10-19-2009, 08:31 PM   #19
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That's a real puzzler, 3 in the same race, and not anywhere near the finish. Could be a statistical anomaly, or maybe there was something bad in the water at an early stop?

There are occasionally marathon deaths, and I usually attribute them to people with a condition that probably would've gotten to them soon or later anyway...mowing the lawn, shoveling snow, something strenuous like that. Often the running will delay it, and perhaps in countless cases for a very long time, but once in awhile it strikes.

One danger I've heard about marathoners is that many are so set on finishing that they push too much through a bad time. Top marathoners will usually drop if they're having trouble, because they're rarely in the lead pack if they are. Midpackers maybe should drop when struggling, though of my 13 marathons (or ultras), only 4 of them went really well for me, a few more had difficult times that I got through, and a couple really went poorly. I dropped once, because my feet/knees/hips/butt/back were all hurting, but I didn't feel like I was in any danger.

Another danger I've been reading about since these deaths is undertraining. You really need at least 1, if not 2 or 3 runs of 20 miles or more, and you have to gradually work up to them. Plenty of people make it without those, but that doesn't mean you didn't raise your risk level for the race.

The best advice I've heard is, train for a marathon, but don't run it. You get the health benefits without the stress of running a long, hard race.

This is coming from a guy who's run 2 50Ks in the last month, and is runnimg the NY marathon on Nov 1.
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Old 10-19-2009, 09:01 PM   #20
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I'm a runner who has never run a marathon. If you want to do a marathon that's fine but there is no need to do this. I've run in championship cross-country teams and competitive races like 10k's. But you do not have to do races or run great distances or run really fast to call yourself a runner.

Have been running for around 40+ years with a few years off in college (did do some biking for basic transport then). Nowadays my goal is to just get 20 mi/week in by running in a state park with dirt trails which are easier on the legs and joints. Current run lengths are 4 to 8 miles. I think my longest run was something like 11 miles. Have hung up the race shoes and now just enjoy nature while moving along.

I do meet a lot of people who tell me how they cannot run because their knees are shot or some such excuse reason. Overuse injuries are often caused by over enthusiasm. In the extreme case the overuse injury could lead to death. Maybe that's part of the problem in some of these races.
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