$350K salary and has to hand wash dishes...

[audreyh1]

I think a lot of people just don't realize how well off they are. They don't begin to understand how many people are much worse off than they are. So, yeah, the backlash from opening their mouth to complain probably comes as a bit of a surprise - maybe even a wake-up call.

 

[Chuckanut]

Reminds me of a time I went to a church dinner concerning the pledge drive for the year. It was also a poor economic times. They brought in a speaker who was a lawyer. He tried to identify with us 'working stiffs' by telling us that many partners in his firm had seen their income go down from about $220,000 a year to only $180,000. Yet, somehow, they still managed to contribute. I think the pastor looked a bit unsettled. We never heard from this guy again.

 

[barnaby]

yes, chuckanut, i remember a similar story---at the hospital where i work, there was a certain doctor known for complaining about never having any money for treats and so he always came into the nursing station asking "do you guys have anything good to eat?"....and when our contract came up for renewal shortly afterward, he was the loudest mouth out there denouncing the government for "giving in" to the union and "paying us more money than we could ever spend". what a jerk! needless to say, his free supply of treats was instantly cut off. he made close to 4 times what the nurses did and didn't have enough brains to know when to keep his opinions to himself.

 

[Midpack]

what do normal people do with their dogs? We never had a dog walker and for years both worked. Last one out let the dog out, first one home let the dog out.

My last (multi-millionaire) boss and his wife had a dog. They couldn't be bothered to pick up after the dog, so they hired someone to come by once a week to scoop for them. He told me this himself, not a rumor.

When they moved into a new house, the wife hired an interior decorator to help her place their artwork around the house. They leaned the pictures against the wall where they intended to place them all, and then thought about it, rearranged several times before finally hanging them. The kicker, the process took two weeks, with several visits by the $$$ decorator. He was proud of this display of decadence.

[-]Insane[/-] to each his own...

 

[bssc]

This story goes well with the book about living in a bubble. These poor bankers probably don't even know what NASCAR is.

 

[FUEGO]

I think people are delusional if they want me to feel sorry for them because of the cost of private school education for 3 kids. My first reaction is if you couldn't afford to have 3 why didn't you stop at 2? Or why not just become involved in the local public school and help make a change instead of whining about the quality of free education.

They can't afford to raise 3 kids because they are busy paying taxes to support all those other people who can't afford to have even 1 kid but chose to have 3 or more.

 

[MichaelB]

The article says they are making close to $200k after tax, health insurance and 401(k). That is a lot of money. Taxes are not holding them back.

 

[FUEGO]

The article says they are making close to $200k after tax, health insurance and 401(k). That is a lot of money. Taxes are not holding them back.

If he was earning $350,000 gross and has $200k after tax and withholdings, then I'd say that is a big tax burden. His tax and other withholdings are larger than my dual income family's entire gross income. If he had an extra $50,000 (due to lower taxes) he would increase his net income by 25% and his disposable income by much more (percentage wise).

I have no idea how much it costs to live a nice manhattan lifestyle, but it doesn't sound like the guy bringing home $200,000 net is living really large. He may have his indulgences, but renting a summer vacation home and living in 1200 sf isn't exactly an indulgence for most middle class americans. You have to vacation somewhere, and their duplex is the size of my condo I lived in during law school.

These guys can always trim their expenses, like all of us can. I'm sure the minimum wage earners sitting next to me on the bus on the commute to work would laugh at most middle income households profligate spending (things like proper dental care, safety features in cars, college savings accounts, eco-conscious consumption etc).

 

[Hamlet]

I think that people are missing something fundamental.

These folks build fixed expenses around a very high level of income. When that income drops, it is very difficult to reduce expenses quickly without a fair amount of pain.

Private school for the kids may not be a "necessity", but pulling your kids out of one in the middle of the year to send them to public school is hard. Selling a vacation home in a collapsed real estate market is difficult.

Ultimately, most people, rich and poor, are living like these wealthy people. They look at the money coming in and build their lives around it without planning for what happens if that income drops.

Most people do this, and it is extremely unpleasant to deal with an income drop in this situation, even if the income drops to something that people still consider high.

Elizabeth Warren touches on this some in her lectures. It's not frivilous spending that is a problem in this situation. It's easy to stop that. It's the big monthly payments that you've locked yourself into that cause pain. Those aren't easy to change without severe upheaval.

 

[MichaelB]

If he was earning $350,000 gross and has $200k after tax and withholdings, then I'd say that is a big tax burden. His tax and other withholdings are larger than my dual income family's entire gross income. If he had an extra $50,000 (due to lower taxes) he would increase his net income by 25% and his disposable income by much more (percentage wise).

I have no idea how much it costs to live a nice manhattan lifestyle, but it doesn't sound like the guy bringing home $200,000 net is living really large. He may have his indulgences, but renting a summer vacation home and living in 1200 sf isn't exactly an indulgence for most middle class americans. You have to vacation somewhere, and their duplex is the size of my condo I lived in during law school.

These guys can always trim their expenses, like all of us can. I'm sure the minimum wage earners sitting next to me on the bus on the commute to work would laugh at most middle income households profligate spending (things like proper dental care, safety features in cars, college savings accounts, eco-conscious consumption etc).

The $350k to $200k is not taxes. It is taxes, retirement savings and health care insurance. Big difference. The complaint that there is not enough left to pay $32k in private elementary school tuition says he is living beyond his means.

 

[Major Tom]

most people, rich and poor, are living like these wealthy people. They look at the money coming in and build their lives around it without planning for what happens if that income drops.

Bingo. I think you nailed it with that statement.

 

[Midpack]

I think that people are missing something fundamental.

These folks build fixed expenses around a very high level of income. When that income drops, it is very difficult to reduce expenses quickly without a fair amount of pain.

Private school for the kids may not be a "necessity", but pulling your kids out of one in the middle of the year to send them to public school is hard. Selling a vacation home in a collapsed real estate market is difficult.

Ultimately, most people, rich and poor, are living like these wealthy people. They look at the money coming in and build their lives around it without planning for what happens if that income drops.

Most people do this, and it is extremely unpleasant to deal with an income drop in this situation, even if the income drops to something that people still consider high.

Elizabeth Warren touches on this some in her lectures. It's not frivilous spending that is a problem in this situation. It's easy to stop that. It's the big monthly payments that you've locked yourself into that cause pain. Those aren't easy to change without severe upheaval.

Seems to be true, but I don't think most people here "are missing something fundamental." Anyone who's read The Millionaire Next Door and grasped the message, knows better than to build themselves into a fixed expense corner.

 

[MichaelB]

Ultimately, most people, rich and poor, are living like these wealthy people. They look at the money coming in and build their lives around it without planning for what happens if that income drops.

Most people do this, and it is extremely unpleasant to deal with an income drop in this situation, even if the income drops to something that people still consider high.

I do not think you can draw the conclusion that most people live like this from the article. Certainly people here grasp that concept very clearly. If you have data that shows this to be the case for most people in the US please show it.

 

[Texas Proud]

I have no idea how much it costs to live a nice manhattan lifestyle, but it doesn't sound like the guy bringing home $200,000 net is living really large. He may have his indulgences, but renting a summer vacation home and living in 1200 sf isn't exactly an indulgence for most middle class americans. You have to vacation somewhere, and their duplex is the size of my condo I lived in during law school.

I was lucky enough to live in Manhattan for almost 2 years, paid for by my company... I could not afford to live there with my salary...

The last place I lived was about 800 or so sq. ft., but was worth about $1 million... and you also had to pay maintenance fees of many hundreds of dollars per month (plus, at the end of the year you would get an envelope with the suggested amount to pay all the people who worked in the building adding many thousands more cost)... now, I was in a building that had celebs, so it was not a cheap place...

When I had family come to visit, I would tell them to go to the grocery store on the next block, take a look at the prices.... come back up and complain about how high they are..... but then go back down and buy what you want/need since you are not going to get something much cheaper... (or course, one of my sisters got on the subway and went to Harlem and found a place with cheaper food)...

If you want cheaper housing, you have to move to Jersey or to Long Island.... but even those were more than most places.... and an hour or more commute was not unheard of....

I do not know why some of these people want this kind of lifestyle, but I did enjoy my time there....

 

[Hamlet]

Yes, this board has more ants than grasshoppers.

The Schadenfreude that the ants here seem to show when the grasshoppers start starving is not their most becoming characteristic though.

Seems to be true, but I don't think most people here "are missing something fundamental." Anyone who's read The Millionaire Next Door and grasped the message, knows better than to build themselves into a fixed expense corner.

 

[HatePayingTaxes]

Agree with Hamlet but this is a good opportunity to decrease that fixed monthly expenses. Yes, it's tough, very tough for most people but, if one can raise monthly living expenses due to rise in income, decrease is possible due to decrease in income.

Hopefully they learn their lesson and can start saving when income goes up but it's only a hope.

 

[Midpack]

Yes, this board has more ants than grasshoppers.

The Schadenfreude that the ants here seem to show when the grasshoppers start starving is not their most becoming characteristic though.

You're right. The ants should be more compassionate when the grasshoppers can no longer afford to have 'three kids in private school, ski trips to Whistler & Tahoe, Trump National memberships, $17K/yr caring for 2 dogs or selling 2 motorcycles they weren't using.'

Seriously, no one enjoys seeing someone else have to cut spending. But I have more sympathy for a struggling ant than for a struggling grasshopper facing the cuts above. Some on Wall St (the OP link was mostly Wall St examples) made the real estate bubble much worse than it would have otherwise been and made a $ killing doing so, how was their schadenfreude for the ants?

 

[Gone4Good]

I think a lot of people just don't realize how well off they are. They don't begin to understand how many people are much worse off than they are. So, yeah, the backlash from opening their mouth to complain probably comes as a bit of a surprise - maybe even a wake-up call.

Bingo! (except the wake-up call part).

This quote says it all:

"People who don't have money don't understand the stress,"

It's a culture where everyone is paid a lot and however much you get paid, you know folks who are making more - a lot more. People become completely ungrounded.

Whenever anyone complains "How can I live in NY on $$$,000?" ask how the admins in their office manage to do it on far less. I've done it and the response is usually stunned silence. Most have never actually considered that people do just fine on a fraction of what they earn. They only look up and see people making far more. They feel underpaid, and poor by comparison. It really is something to behold.

 

[ziggy29]

Yes, this board has more ants than grasshoppers.

The Schadenfreude that the ants here seem to show when the grasshoppers start starving is not their most becoming characteristic though.

I don't like seeing anyone struggle. And I do agree, to a point, that the "ants" can be a bit smug in their condemnation of, and condescension toward, "grasshoppers" at times here.

Having said that, there is only some much capacity for compassion and willingness to sacrifice myself for the needs of others, and if my choice is between someone who couldn't make ends meet with $350K and a struggling young single mother with a deadbeat absentee father who is working two jobs just to pay the modest rent, I know where my concern and willingness to sacrifice are going.

I'd much sooner be generous to someone busting their asses and barely able to afford the necessities than someone who enough to feed, house and educate three families quite well but can't manage even one.

And yet, I do understand the seduction of "lifestyle creep" and how hard it is to change once you are accustomed to it. It's one of the reasons why I'm grateful I made the decision, years ago, to not significantly ratchet up my lifestyle just because my income allowed it. But my ability to help those who struggle is limited so I have to make choices there.

 

[MichaelB]

Yes, this board has more ants than grasshoppers.

The Schadenfreude that the ants here seem to show when the grasshoppers start starving is not their most becoming characteristic though.

My sense is that forum members understand that living within one's means is a choice to be made. The newspaper article deliberately presents the subjects in an unfavorable light and invites the reader to be critical, and this is unfair. Schadenfreude? If so, it is intended by the author. Forum members show the reaction of people that have faced similar challenges but chosen differently.

 

[Gone4Good]

You're right. The ants should be more compassionate when the grasshoppers can no longer afford to have 'three kids in private school, ski trips to Whistler & Tahoe, Trump National memberships, $17K/yr caring for 2 dogs or selling 2 motorcycles they weren't using.'

LOL

I'd frame it like this: Why should someone who can only afford to send their kids to public school feel sympathy for someone else whose downside scenario is that they might have to, perish the thought, send their kids to public school?

Surely the children of the formerly rich can't be expected to mingle with the prols.

 

[NW-Bound]

This story goes well with the book about living in a bubble. These poor bankers probably don't even know what NASCAR is.

Eh, people who go to France to see Le Mans do not need to know about NASCAR.


PS. I have to add here that I am so poor I have not seen any NASCAR race, leave alone Le Mans.

 

[Letj]

Bingo! (except the wake-up call part).


Whenever anyone complains "How can I live in NY on $$$,000?" ask how the admins in their office manage to do it on far less. I've done it and the response is usually stunned silence. Most have never actually considered that people do just fine on a fraction of what they earn. They only look up and see people making far more. They feel underpaid, and poor by comparison. It really is something to behold.

That might be true but I have lived in NYC and do not want to live on what these other people live on. To make ends meet, they live in basement or in a shared housing situation and live in areas of the city that I would not recommend.

 

[FUEGO]

I do not think you can draw the conclusion that most people live like this from the article. Certainly people here grasp that concept very clearly. If you have data that shows this to be the case for most people in the US please show it.

Savings rate was around zero up till a few years ago. Expenses equaled income roughly speaking. Some saved like us here, others spent more than their income, incurring debt.

Recently that trend has changed, and people on average save around 5% of their incomes now IIRC. Savers probably save more and spenders can't get access to enough credit to offset the savers savings.

 

[photoguy]

San Francisco, La Jolla, Boston, Nantucket, LA and many other cities in CA, CT, MA are equally hard for me to comprehend. Wonderful places, but why would anyone put up with a COL like that? No answer...

For a lot of people they have no choice, it's simply where the jobs are for their (specialized) field.