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Old 04-24-2012, 02:37 PM   #21
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Your examples provide a better experience. Why get a Walkman? Portable music. Microwave? You can heat a frozen meal in 3 minutes instead of 15. iPod? You can carry ALL of your music with you. Etc. A light bulb provides light.
And getting that light with a lower electricity bill, and rarely having a bulb burn out are market advantages too. Many people look at mpg when they shop for a car. Lower fuel costs per mile, lower electricity costs per lumen - same thing.


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Yep. However, to your point below, a tax on coal electricity ain't gonna happen. Banning 100 watt bulbs satisfies the objective to get a significant portion of the 100 watt light bulb users to stop using them in their lamps. Lighting an attic, as you mentioned, is a minimal use of energy. Switching out a living room lamp (or 3) with a CFL outweighs any loss with an attic bulb switch.


Still waiting for the free market to fix this inefficiency....
To your last point - no, the free market isn't likely to react to those costs as long as they are external. Which takes us back to the tax on pollution, which would internalize the costs, which would lead to market solutions.

So the govt won't get serious and put a tax on pollution, but they will dribble around the edges frivolously with non-solutions and tell us what kind of bulb to use (while my neighbor runs their AC down to 68F instead of opening their windows on a warm, not hot/humid day). I just don't appreciate them not being serious about it while they limit my choices. There are places where I want a 100W bulb, don't want anything else, and I'm not going to destroy the world using 10 minutes per year. I'm in the lowest quintile of electricity users in my neighborhood, but the govt doesn't think I know enough to choose a light bulb. I just resent being treated like I'm stupid.

-ERD50
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Old 04-24-2012, 02:40 PM   #22
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I bought one of those $39 Phillips LED light bulbs to replace a recessed indoor floodlight. I have CFLs in the other 5 spots. I had to go through about 10-12 CFLs to get the original 6 to last more than a few months.

I like the brightness, color and instant-on functioning of the expensive LED bulb. The package claimed it would last 23 years. I will try to remember to let you know how it works out.
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Old 04-24-2012, 02:49 PM   #23
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As of today, I have 9 that are like these:

A19 8.6-Watt (40W) LED Light Bulb-ECS 19 WW 120 at The Home Depot

These cast directionally, so I use them for task lights and ceiling fan lights.

I like the fact of having instant-on, no flicker, no time needed to heat up to get bright, no mercury used, and shouldn't burn out. Oh yeah, they are low in wattage too (only about 8 to 9 watts a bulb).
So these are only $10 each? Wonder why the $50 headline? Seem cool to me, so these are what you'd use in a floor lamp? That seems like a bargain to me!
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Old 04-24-2012, 02:50 PM   #24
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Since I haven't seen the light, .
I haven't either. I like the idea, but not the price. The CFLs I have used do not seem to last as long as the incandescent bulbs. They also appear to be fire hazards looking at the burned areas where base and glass meet. When LEDs drop in price I will start the conversion.
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Old 04-24-2012, 03:03 PM   #25
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I have enough 100 and 75 watt incandescent bulbs to last me 5 or more years based on past usage. Hopefully by then they'll have worked the bugs and the price issues out on whatever ends up replacing them. I hate CFLs, but I've put them in a few places where they don't get used too often and the slow warm up isn't an issue (crawl spaces and attics). Things like garage door opener lights, bathrooms, and anywhere I like to use a dimmer will remain incandescent for the foreseeable future.
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Old 04-24-2012, 03:05 PM   #26
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So these are only $10 each? Wonder why the $50 headline? Seem cool to me, so these are what you'd use in a floor lamp? That seems like a bargain to me!
Those are unidirectional, like a spot light. The bulbs that illuminate in all directions generally cost more.
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Old 04-24-2012, 03:09 PM   #27
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So these are only $10 each? Wonder why the $50 headline? Seem cool to me, so these are what you'd use in a floor lamp? That seems like a bargain to me!

I think the one on the link is $50 a good part because it's a 60w equivalent which is the most common wattage for incadescents. The ones I have are rated only 40w equivalent, though I'm quite happy with them and they serve my needs just fine.
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Old 04-24-2012, 03:16 PM   #28
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Things like garage door opener lights, bathrooms, and anywhere I like to use a dimmer will remain incandescent for the foreseeable future.
High ceiling fans and garage door openers were the first to go to CFL at my rentals. The garage door incandescent bulbs just went out too quickly with the opener shaking like Elvis.
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Old 04-24-2012, 03:25 PM   #29
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I'm a bit confused. The 10W bulb in the OP by easysurfer is said to be roughly equivalent to a 60W incandescent in terms of light output. The 8.6W bulb he talks about in a later post is supposed to be equivalent to a 40W bulb.

I have 14W CFL's that are quoted on the package as being 60W equivalent, which is a little less efficient than the LED bulbs, but not a lot. I thought that LED bulbs were much more efficient than CFL's (by at least a factor of 2). Was I misinformed?
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Old 04-24-2012, 03:29 PM   #30
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I always look at the Lumen output. Sometimes a CFL or LED will be labelled as 60w equivalent but have a much lower Lumen value. That is why the bulbs seem dimmer - they are dimmer.
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Old 04-24-2012, 04:05 PM   #31
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The use of LEDs in automobile tail lights has puzzled me. The incandescents are cheap, light weight, and when operating on a car's DC last for decades. I'd expect any energy savings from LEDs in a car to be offset by their heavier weight and, after an accident, greater replacement cost.
another aspect is safety related in shorter response time in LED lighting
http://chemlinks.beloit.edu/BlueLigh...p/an1155-3.pdf
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Old 04-24-2012, 04:38 PM   #32
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I'm a bit confused. The 10W bulb in the OP by easysurfer is said to be roughly equivalent to a 60W incandescent in terms of light output. The 8.6W bulb he talks about in a later post is supposed to be equivalent to a 40W bulb.

I have 14W CFL's that are quoted on the package as being 60W equivalent, which is a little less efficient than the LED bulbs, but not a lot. I thought that LED bulbs were much more efficient than CFL's (by at least a factor of 2). Was I misinformed?
No, you're not confused - CFL and LED efficiencies are pretty close. But the LEDs don't have all that delicate glass, or any mercury, and last much longer (maybe the 2x life is what you were thinking of?). I think they have more flexibility in terms of color output, and being dimmable (it's easier to make an LED dimmable than it is a CFLs).

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Old 04-24-2012, 06:50 PM   #33
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They're chosen for the appearance, rather than energy savings. LED strips can be fabricated to produce almost any shape or pattern desired, and fitted into spaces where a conventional lamp would be difficult or impractical.

I've selected some LED lighting in the home for the same reason, installing narrow strips tucked into milled pieced of cabinetry to produce a low temperature, low power, and safely low voltage very even light source where conventional bulbs wouldn't be safe or practical.
I also selected a great location for some LED lights. Debated about this for a while due to cost but ended up with the LED puck (two LED's on plate) from Lowes. I mounted each puck on a small piece of moulding to give it a little tilt toward the wall. Mounted them up against the wall on our plant shelves for some decorative lighting. Spaced about 4 ft. apart they really look good. I went with the LED's because I don't want to ever be going up there and changing them. Can't remember the details on wattage but I remember they are guaranteed for 20k hours. A great application.
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Old 04-24-2012, 07:37 PM   #34
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No, you're not confused - CFL and LED efficiencies are pretty close. But the LEDs don't have all that delicate glass, or any mercury, and last much longer (maybe the 2x life is what you were thinking of?). I think they have more flexibility in terms of color output, and being dimmable (it's easier to make an LED dimmable than it is a CFLs).

-ERD50
Thanks. I was aware of the other advantages but was under the assumption that the energy savings compared to CFL's was significant.
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Old 04-25-2012, 11:00 AM   #35
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Is it just the lack of economy of scale that makes them so expensive? They've got to be simpler to fabricate than an incandescent or CFL, and LEDs have been around for decades.

Note that if one lasts 30 years, it will likely be obsolete before it wears out.

On CFLs I just can't understand the complaints. Mine come on instantly with plenty of brightness, though they do get brighter over the next few minutes. The quality of the light is great (they come in different "colors." Could people be using different brands than I am?
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Old 04-25-2012, 11:34 AM   #36
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Is it just the lack of economy of scale that makes them so expensive? They've got to be simpler to fabricate than an incandescent or CFL, and LEDs have been around for decades.

Note that if one lasts 30 years, it will likely be obsolete before it wears out.

On CFLs I just can't understand the complaints. Mine come on instantly with plenty of brightness, though they do get brighter over the next few minutes. The quality of the light is great (they come in different "colors." Could people be using different brands than I am?

What brand do you use I have used many different brands and even colors...

Sure, when new they are OK after they turn on full intensity... but I have one that I have had for a few years and it has yellowed a lot from white.. I have had way to many just not work after a few months, sometimes a few weeks...

The ones I installed upstairs that are dimmable come on at I would guess at 40% or less of their rated light... it takes about 1 minute to get to 70% and up to 3 to get to full.... once full, they are OK, but I just installed them 3 months ago so I do not know if they will last.

I installed a dimmable in the kitchen and it went out in about 3 months... I do not know if you are not supposed to put one with regular bulbs.... I have one in the living room that is starting to make noise and flicker... it has been there a year...

I have one that is supposed to be a 150 equivelent that I put outside... when it is turned on you can see the first two 'rings' light up... it takes up to 5 minutes for all of the rings to light...

In the garage, in the bathroom, in the closet, in the kitchen I want instant light at full power... except for the kitchen when cooking and less so the bathroom I am not there long enough for the light to get full...
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Old 04-25-2012, 11:38 AM   #37
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On CFLs I just can't understand the complaints. Mine come on instantly with plenty of brightness, though they do get brighter over the next few minutes. The quality of the light is great (they come in different "colors." Could people be using different brands than I am?
It could easily be different brands. I've had greater and less success with different brands. And color may help too, but if so I haven't found the right one yet. I haven't experimented with them much, because they're so expensive. Maybe I'll buy a bunch of different colored CFLs and see if one works better for me. Then I'll return the rest.

But I also suspect you might just be easier to please in this instance. Many of the places I've used them the lack of immediate full brightness is noticeable and annoying. Kitchen overhead lights not coming on brightly makes it hard to read labels and things within the first few minutes. Garage door opener lights come on bright enough to keep from bumping into things, but not bright enough to easily find the proper screwdriver on my cluttered workbench. A garage is a big space to light. Incandescents work fine, but CFLs don't. In a bathroom they often haven't reached full brightness by the time I'm ready to leave. None of this is an issue with incandescents. Once CFLs come up to full brightness they aren't bad, although I still prefer the light quality of an incandescent.

None of this is critical, but it's definitely annoying. And since I'm not convinced that the hype of the CFL regarding energy saving and long life is accurate, I'm unhappy to have been legislated into having to use them. Hopefully LEDs will be better, but in the past I've used LEDs for reading and walking up dark paths on camping trips and to me you just can't see as clearly by them as with incandescents. As I said before, I'm hoping most of these issues will be resolved by the time I run out of incandescent bulbs.
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Old 04-25-2012, 11:55 AM   #38
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Not going to hash through the CFL issues again, and I've put them where they work and I don't have an issue with the slow start up.

What burns me is that they let the Philips CEO claim his bulbs will last 30 years (possibly, but I've had a couple CFL bulbs burn out quickly so I'm not sold on that claim) while saying that incandescent bulbs burn out "in just a matter of months". I've had many bulbs I put in when I built my house 11 years ago not burn out, including some that are on for 3-6 hours most days. I've got a couple fixtures that did burn through bulbs quickly, and I went with lower wattage or CFLs there. Most are fine. Claiming they go in a matter of months is a lie.
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:04 PM   #39
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Is it just the lack of economy of scale that makes them so expensive? They've got to be simpler to fabricate than an incandescent or CFL, and LEDs have been around for decades.


An incandescent bulb is a wire in an evacuated glass bulb. Once they got the process of shaping glass and evacuating it (over 100 years ago), that's all there is to it. You can't get much simpler than that.

The LEDs are multiple LEDs strung together, along with a switching power supply that has to deal with a range of input voltages and maintain efficiency and keep the LED in a safe operating area, and you need heat sinks. You don't want those LEDS getting too hot, (less than 100C at the die), while the filament in a bulb goes to thousands of degrees.

No comparison - incandescents are far simpler.

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Note that if one lasts 30 years, it will likely be obsolete before it wears out.
I wouldn't say 'obsolete' - as long as we are still using 120V 60 Hz AC, it will keep on working. If it has paid for itself in savings, why replace it? If newer ones are efficient enough that they pay for themselves in savings, then replace it. But I think it makes sense to wait, as I said earlier, if prices drop more than 1/30 plus savings each year.

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On CFLs I just can't understand the complaints. Mine come on instantly with plenty of brightness, though they do get brighter over the next few minutes. The quality of the light is great (they come in different "colors." Could people be using different brands than I am?
I'm pretty much OK with the light quality of the ones I use. Some brighten a bit over the first minute or two, but that isn't a concern for me. I'm more worried about the ones that have died early, or gave off a burning smell as they died. I am afraid these things could cause a fire. Any small component could overheat to the point of flame. The old bulb is pretty much self-limiting and fail-safe in that regard.

-ERD50
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:40 PM   #40
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From my experience, with CFLs, brand name does matter. I've had bad experiences ith FEIT brand (sold at Menards) as I had serveral die prematurely. I've had good experiences with Sylvania as they seem to not die early. Also, I think (not sure if it's myth or act) if you have CFL's installed in a place that is often turned on/off, that might make them die early too.

As for LEDs, of the ones I've owned (first about a couple years ago), none of them have died early. When I bought one yesterday, Menards had a FEIT LED bulb, but I avoided that one to be safe and got a different brand from Home Depot instead.

In years from now, I expect the LEDs will still be running. Time will tell. I think the challenge is if technology makes LED bulbs in the future, running on less energy but same or more lumens as current bulbs, it would feel like a waste to not replace again to save even more energy.
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