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Old 06-13-2009, 03:05 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by PX4sc40sw View Post
Jambo, look at the video again. When the officer put him on the ground and handcuffs him, he removes the gun and places it on the ground in front of his car. Also note how the driver points with his left arm trying to divert the officers attention and all the while keeping his right hand near his gun. Worrisome.
I'm not doubting you, I'm just curious why it was never publicized that Massey had a gun.

When that video came out I looked at it closely and did not like Massey's body language at all. At the time I thought it was his wallet that he had in his hand, mostly because nothing was mentioned in the news about a gun and the trooper made no comment. I guess everyone's reaction is different when encountering a weapon during a search, but my usual reaction was to at least comment something like "and what were you going to do with this?"

Massey was a complete idiot - full stop. Trooper Gardner did a crappy job in communicating with the guy, but I'm not sure that Massey would have listened to a better explanation in any case. Back in the day before tasers, I usually made an extra effort to talk people into compliance because forcing it meant I had to do some laying upon of hands, and that mean rolling around on the pavement with some idiot.

I also thought, somewhat OT, that Gardner showed some poor tactical awareness in taking his eyes off Massey and allowing him to get that close and behind him. At the time I first saw this video I remember thinking, "hand movements hesitant but nearly perfect for firearm assault - Gardiner's lucky this guy wasn't armed because it doesn't look like he sees that." I remember clearly thinking that Gardiner was definitely holding the wrong weapon in his hands and, and wondering what would be the best way to go from taser to primary weapon without being at a disadvantage.

The more I look at the video with the revelation that it was a pistol, the more I freak out about his body language. If that was a gun, that body language screams "I'm thinking about using it". The stance and off-hand movement is pretty close to all of the tactical gunfight training I ever received. You stay sideways like that if you're not wearing a vest to minimize your body mass as a target (plus it's a good strong stance for shooting or fighting), bring the non-gun hand up to draw attention away from where the real threat is, and then make your move. Even as he walks away his body language was still broadcasting that he had at least some lingering thoughts about doing something. I noticed all of that back two years ago when I first saw this video and thought it just weird because there was no mention of his being armed.

Reviewing the video in light of the "everybody carries in Utah" and "Massey had a gun", I notice that when the wife gets out of the car a similar looking dark object falls to the ground. She picks it up later when she gets back in the car.

Scary, scary, scary.

Edit to add: I remembered that I wrote a commentary on some other website back when it happened. Here were my comments then:
Quote:
Anyway, the reason why Massey got zapped and found himself calling for his mommy was because he ignored Gardner’s clear commands to comply, and then stuck his hands in his pockets. There’s not a cop in America who doesn’t get very nervous when a suspect puts his hands in his pocket. When an uncooperative suspect puts his hands in his pocket, especially after you’ve drawn a weapon on him, your mind immediately runs through the possible inventory of what might be in that pocket. I’m not talking bubble gum, condoms and car keys; I’m speaking of guns, knives, sharp rocks and all other kinds of bad things that can hurt me. If they had allowed me to keep all of the weapons that I dug out of suspects’ pockets (sometimes with they nasty little fingers all wrapped around them) I would be able to open a huge discount gun store. Albeit one chock full of mostly cheap and crappy guns.

Massey was obviously kind of freaked out, and why he acted the way he did that day is a mystery. His reaction to Gardner’s commands give credence to my belief that he was ignorant (or in denial) on the nature of the relationship with a police officer who has stopped him for a traffic violation. It is custodial in nature, and until the cop says “You’re free to go, sir”, a violator is not free to do as he pleases.

Up to that point where he went a little batty, Jared Massey was just acting like a somewhat deluded or arrogant dimwit who wasn’t cooperating. When he refused to obey commands, ignored the obvious attempt to secure compliance with the threat of force (pointed weapon that he thought was a firearm), and then turned to conceal one hand while simultaneously reaching in his pocket with the other…well, that was just incredibly stupid.

People have been shot in similar circumstances.
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Old 06-13-2009, 03:38 PM   #102
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Think fear helps keep people alive, but it sure can have an adverse affect on society (terrer. terrer terrrer terror!). "To protect and to serve" can run through reasoning that goes: society must be protected, I protect society, for society to be protected I must stay alive, therefore, my survival is paramount, and anything percieved as a threat to my survival must be made not a threat. Problem is that cops are human and subject to the same foibles and errors in perception as any of us.

Enforcement is repugnant to me - i expect self regulation, sad thing is, others regulate themselves in ways i might not and think they are being reasonable. That goes for cops and crooks and all the freedom loving Americans in between them who expect their rights and find themselves put under the control of a well armed individual who says they only have the right to shut up and do as told. Boy i loath confrontation. Good thing there are those who have more belly for it than me?
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Old 06-13-2009, 04:11 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
I looked at it again and i guess you got better eyes than me because i dont see a gun. or this diversion to distract the officer.
Elasped time 2:03 - 2:16.
It took me a second viewing to see the right hand around something in his pocket and the left hand of the driver pointing away from himself, pointing down the road against the direction of traffic.
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Old 06-13-2009, 04:19 PM   #104
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This elderly driver is much more compliant with the police.

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Old 06-13-2009, 04:54 PM   #105
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And from yet another country: http://www.rense.com/general85/ukbeatyou.jpg

All just people.
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Old 06-13-2009, 05:57 PM   #106
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I decided to do a bit of research.... it does NOT appear that he had a gun.. because if he DID, I do not think that the state would have settled the lawsuit... The guy got $40K...

FOXNews.com - Tasered Utah Driver Wins $40,000 in Lawsuit - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News
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Old 06-13-2009, 06:09 PM   #107
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OK... watch what is more of the video... the 40 mph sign was only yards from where he was stopped...

I still think that he was not doing what he was supposed to do... and the officer was justified... but it was not like it was a clear cut case of speeding like the short video showed... however, he did pay the fine...

Utah: Motorist Tasered Over Minor Traffic Ticket
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Old 06-13-2009, 07:00 PM   #108
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That 40mph sign was the 3rd in a series. Listen to the officer say "you passed another one about a 1/2 mile back...". Maybe you missed hearing that.

Look at the still for the video, that is a holster on his belt. An Uncle Mike's Super Slide. Not that hard to see if you have good eyesight and look carefully for it.

Plus, how do you explain what he is doing with hand, nothing can explain that.

He got off cause of the "ride the Taser" and "painful.." comment. Otherwise he would have lost that case.

If you never worked in Utah, you may not know the power of the Elders.

PS: The article does portray Massey as a first class citizen doing nothing wrong but asserting his rights, but I saw it slightly different, but to each their own.
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Old 06-13-2009, 07:25 PM   #109
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But the point is: Does someone deserve "kindler, gentler" treatment because they are old and female instead of young and male, regardless of how much an ass they are making of themselves?
Ziggy29 has made the same point I was thinking. As an older woman myself, even I resent her screaming that she's a 72 year old woman like she should receive "special" treatment. She was going 60 in a 45 mph zone! Obviously, she's not into accountability at all.
Personally, I thought she made a total ass of herself, and I surely wouldn't want my friends and old co-workers seeing me in video acting like she did as I'd be embarrassed at how I acted. But I doubt if she even gets it from what I could tell in a follow-up video later. Pity.
If she wants to play the "I'm a 72 year old woman, and I should be respected simply because of my age" then she should act her age and not like some old guttersniping fishmonger (no disrespect meant to the many fine fishmongers out there).
The Cop remained pretty calm and in control I thought.
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Old 06-13-2009, 08:11 PM   #110
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If I could say more, you would certainly be more freaked out. But look carefully at the belt "case". It's a holster. But in Utah, that is the norm in that area (heavy Elder country). As of yesterday, heck, anyone can carry.
The Jawa Report: Utah Enacts New Gun Laws

I teach and I saw everything you mention. Drawing and concealed hold (while officer's back to him), reducing profile, hidden strong hand and movement, diversion with off hand, off hand spread for perfect turn to double straight thumbs grip, whew wee, scares me.

What might scare you even more is if you have some old buds who will do a look-up on him and his family. BTW, they own and run Vernal, UT. You will likely be one mad ex-cop if you can get some Federal notes on him.

BTW, notice his camo pants, and think survivalist.

Naive crowds are everywhere. Massey won by influence. That officer is gone now.


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I'm not doubting you, I'm just curious why it was never publicized that Massey had a gun.



The more I look at the video with the revelation that it was a pistol, the more I freak out about his body language. If that was a gun, that body language screams "I'm thinking about using it". The stance and off-hand movement is pretty close to all of the tactical gunfight training I ever received. You stay sideways like that if you're not wearing a vest to minimize your body mass as a target (plus it's a good strong stance for shooting or fighting), bring the non-gun hand up to draw attention away from where the real threat is, and then make your move. Even as he walks away his body language was still broadcasting that he had at least some lingering thoughts about doing something. I noticed all of that back two years ago when I first saw this video and thought it just weird because there was no mention of his being armed.

Reviewing the video in light of the "everybody carries in Utah" and "Massey had a gun", I notice that when the wife gets out of the car a similar looking dark object falls to the ground. She picks it up later when she gets back in the car.

Scary, scary, scary.
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Old 06-13-2009, 08:16 PM   #111
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I decided to do a bit of research.... it does NOT appear that he had a gun.. because if he DID, I do not think that the state would have settled the lawsuit... The guy got $40K...

FOXNews.com - Tasered Utah Driver Wins $40,000 in Lawsuit - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News
I still can't find any documentation on the pistol in any story. He didn't "win" the lawsuit, the state just agreed to pay him if he would drop the lawsuit. Both the Highway Patrol and the State Attorney General cleared the officer of any wrong doing in his use of force. However, the UHP found his poor communications skills contributed to the situation being allowed to get that far (I agree) and sent him to some extra training. Plus, he didn't follow policy in post-tasing procedure (medical treatment, cleaning the barb wounds with alcohol swabs, etc.) He's got some bad commentary in his personnel file is about the end of it.

Police administrators and their lawyers are pretty much the same anywhere. They will settle a lawsuit if they can do it cheaply because they don't want to spend the money to hire outside litigators, or be subject to paying the other guy's legal fees. Sucks if you're a cop who did nothing wrong because the city's actions to weasel out cheaply makes it look like they're admitting you were wrong.

That beats their other favorite tactic when they get sued for something an employee is alleged to have done. They would tell the employee to not hire an attorney because the city would represent him for free since he was a codefendant with them. Just before trial they would file a motion to be removed from the lawsuit by claiming the officer had violated an established policy and if the judge granted the motion, they would leave him unrepresented and unprepared for trial as the sole defendant.
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PS: The article does portray Massey as a first class citizen doing nothing wrong but asserting his rights, but I saw it slightly different, but to each their own.
I read some comments on one of the stories about the settlement in which someone said they had been Massey's roomate (college I guess). Said he was a great guy, but he loved to "debate" everything. I'm thinking the taser got the gold medal in this debate.
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Old 06-13-2009, 08:43 PM   #112
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Leonidas, in your career, did you ever arrest and taser the son of a powerful Texas judge or rancher with 400,000 acres and a few million cattle and a 300 year history in Texas? If so, did all the facts get reported?

Oh and do not count on the news to present factual evidence about this case, or any other for that matter. I'd get some former colleagues to "look into it".

Damn Leonidas, I do hope you are just clowning around with this. You supplied this link.
Look at the picture: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,336812,00.html
If you are a trained tactical situation copper. What do you see Massey doing with his right hand?


Man, I am serious. Is he using that hand to call home, brace for the taser, or double tap? What do you see?
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Old 06-13-2009, 08:50 PM   #113
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Utah law: "Specifically, the laws allow carrying loaded, concealed weapons in vehicles without any gun permits and address less-restrictive requirements for guns in employee and visitor vehicles on business property."

Utah's law of allowing guns without permits has even me--an NRA member and pro-gun person--concerned. I'm surprised Utah wouldn't require permits to carry. Not thrilled about that at all myself. May be a little tooo liberal.
At least Texas required you to take a written and shooting test (and pass it, of course) before they allow you to carry.
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Old 06-14-2009, 01:14 AM   #114
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That 40mph sign was the 3rd in a series. Listen to the officer say "you passed another one about a 1/2 mile back...". Maybe you missed hearing that.

Look at the still for the video, that is a holster on his belt. An Uncle Mike's Super Slide. Not that hard to see if you have good eyesight and look carefully for it.

Plus, how do you explain what he is doing with hand, nothing can explain that.

He got off cause of the "ride the Taser" and "painful.." comment. Otherwise he would have lost that case.

If you never worked in Utah, you may not know the power of the Elders.

PS: The article does portray Massey as a first class citizen doing nothing wrong but asserting his rights, but I saw it slightly different, but to each their own.

Nope... did not hear it....

Yes, it looks like a holster... but I could not see a gun when he would have had one... I did see his hand down by his side where the holster was... but I can not see any report at all that said he had a gun... can anybody Not, 'I see it in the video'... unless someone can still frame it and blow it up where there is no question...

I see it the same as you... but maybe you were talking about others and not me...
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Old 06-14-2009, 07:31 AM   #115
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Sorry if I came across as doubtful or disputing. That was not my intention. Well, not originally it wasn’t.

If anything, when I read what you said about Massey having a pistol, I was shocked that I had missed it from my earlier analysis of the video a couple of years ago. Back then, I saw Massey’s actions as weird, because they were consistent in a number of ways with someone armed and giving serious consideration to attacking the officer, but there was no other indication that he had a weapon. I thought at the time that the trooper, who showed some poor tactical judgment, was lucky that Massey wasn’t armed.

My comments weren’t disputing you, but were more akin to musing out loud at my failure to have seen it in the first place.

When you posted some very specific details about the make and model of the gun and holster, and some other things, I was almost convinced just based on that. And looking at the video again, I kept seeing things that made me think you were right. His actions, stance, body language, all were indicating that he had a gun and was on the verge of doing something evil when Trooper Gardner finally snapped to and drew down on him.

Still, I was just being honest about my observations that I could not actually see the gun.

After your last post, the one where you wondered if I was clowning around, I had to go back and see where the heck I had missed all of the stuff you were seeing. And now, I have to say that I definitely don’t see a gun, and everything I see is consistent with the only guns being there were brought to the scene by Trooper Gardner.

Ultimately, a couple of details that you were very specific about are proving very difficult for me to accept.

No malice intended, just a more in depth analysis spurred by your doubting my powers of observation and reasoning.

I paid a lot of attention to Massey’s actions from 2:02 to 2:16. For the first few seconds, as Massey is getting out of the car, his actions regarding what he has in his hands were not consistent with someone handling a firearm that they were about to use in an armed assault. It looked like a guy fumbling around with his wallet. As the video progresses, I kept seeing things that seemed consistent with a guy not really sure how he was going to pull off an assault, but definitely heading that way. However, I was also still seeing an arrogant doofus who was clueless as to what was going on trying to run his big mouth while putting his wallet in his pocket.

Right before he gets zapped is when Massey is doing that weird hand jive with the right hand in his pants pocket. That has never looked right to me and still doesn’t. But whatever he is playing around with is hidden in his pocket.

After he gets zapped we don’t see much of him again for a while, and when we do see him again, he has been searched and handcuff. If there was a pistol, Trooper Gardner has taken custody of it. More about that later.

The more I tried to determine, solely from Massey’s actions playing around with this unidentified object, the more I kept trying to prove to myself that it had to be a gun. I had pistols out, my wallet, car keys, etc. all playing around with them imitating his movements. Eventually I decided that I really couldn’t make a decisive call on what it was in his hands. Based on those 14 seconds of tape, my gut feeling is that it was his wallet.

But, because I can’t call it for sure, I’m going to go all the way to one side and say “it was a pistol”.

It’s after he gets zapped that I run into way too many things that say “it wasn’t a pistol”.

Easy one first: It may be perfectly legal and commonplace for folks to go around Utah toting their favorite pistol. So, it’s not evidence if he finds a pistol in Massey’s pocket while searching him. However, it is a piece of property that Gardner is now legally and administratively responsible for, and other than documenting a chain of custody, he will take the same basic actions. Unload, clear and make safe is the first step. I don’t see anything like this on the video and don’t hear anything that sounds like it either.

And what ever happened to the firearm, magazine and ammunition?

Earlier you said that he put it on the ground in front of his car. I’m not seeing it, and from my viewpoint I think you would have to have x-ray vision to see through the hood of the police car to get that detail. There is a lot of activity going on with Gardner’s hands, some of it unclear, but if he put the pistol on the ground to the front of his car, he would have had to turn and lean in that direction. Certainly he would not just lay it on the ground close to the suspect. Handcuffed prisoners do shoot cops – I can take you to the appropriate graves or introduce you to two still living cops with the scars to prove it.

Still, say it is unloaded and laying in front of the car. We never see him pick it up to retrieve the pistol, magazine and round removed from the chamber. Not even after it is all over, with the prisoner stuffed in the backseat, Mrs. Massey leaving the scene, and he and the backup officer are standing around in front of the car talking about what happened. Where is the gun? Are they standing on it?

The tape does skip something about the time the backup officer arrives, but from the context it doesn’t look like we missed much. During the jump Gardner was talking to Mrs. Massey and the backup was just hanging out. Something must have been cut out for privacy reasons is my best guess, but still no pistol evident anywhere.

Finally, as is common practice, the two cops talk about what was going on. Gardner runs the lick down to the officer from the other agency and it’s a typical war story, all the details are there. No mention of a pistol. So it’s Utah and everybody has a gun, but still there’s no mention of it? I don’t care if it’s the Klingon Empire, a physical altercation with a nutty traffic violator, who happens to be armed, deserves as least a “I’m glad he wasn’t so crazy as to try and do something with his gun” comment. And remember, while trying to prove that he had a gun, we have to believe that it was a holster on his hip, which Trooper Gardner finds empty, and the pistol would be found in his pocket. That definitely deserves a comment, especially if the troop reflects back on what the guy was doing with his hands just prior to getting tased.

There’s a lot of other things that all say “no gun”, but I’ll move on to the last two. And up until after I looked at these, I was still trying to believe that there was a gun. Honest to God.

The first is the holster. Identified by you as an Uncle Mike’s Super Slide, which Uncle Mike calls the Super Belt Slide, which comes in several configurations for a variety of pistols. Looking at Uncle Mike’s websites (regular and law enforcement/tactical) I find the Super Belt Slide and suddenly realize that I have been a prolific customer of Uncle Mike’s over the years. I own that holster, in all but the hidden hammer version, for several different pistols (semi and wheel gun). I feel confident in saying that whatever it is that Massey has on, it is not a Super Belt Slide.

Watching the video and studying the thing on his belt, I noticed some similarities to another Uncle Mike’s product that I own in several different versions, the injection molded Kydex holster. But while there are a few similarities, there are many easily seen features on the Kydex holsters that are missing from the thing Massey has. Looking at all of Uncle Mike’s holsters finds nothing else that comes even close to the mystery object.
Then, at about 4:25 and 4:36, the object is visible from the front and rear. A light background in both places allows you to look “through” it and you see a lot more of the details. I don’t know what that thing is on his hip, but it looks nothing like any holster I have ever encountered. It is open and at the top and bottom, with a flap or strap over each end. I’ve never seen a holster that allows a top and bottom draw. Maybe some kind of weird magazine pouch, but again, I’ve never seen one of those that opens at both the top and bottom either.

If you want to give me a link to a picture of the holster you think this is, I’ll be glad to go look at it. But as I see it now, that is not a holster for any kind of pistol.

The last thing that turned my opinion around is the identity of the pistol itself; a .38 caliber Micro Eagle.

I’m assuming that .38 caliber was a typo for .380 acp.

Interested in what the heck a Micro Eagle was (I thought Magnum Research just made hand cannons) I went and did some research on the Micro Eagle, and found a lot of stories, many of them talking about this relatively new pistol going on sale in October 2008. Since you have been giving some very specific information about Massey’s gun along with other information, I’ve got some questions about the accuracy of your information when you tell me he was running around in September 2007 with a gun that would not be for sale for more than a year later.

Again, I'm not poking a fight here, it’s an interesting intellectual exercise for me, but the more I look at this the more I have got to say that the only guns on the Massey deal belonged to the cop.
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Old 06-14-2009, 07:44 AM   #116
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TP, listen to the audio of the link you provided anad at 1:26-1:28, the officer says "you passed another one a 1/2 mile..", driver interupts with "no I didn't".

But before you even start the video, look carefully at that still. The driver had previously removed his gun and actually never took his hand off it and had a grip on the gun which is now in his camo cargo pocket.

At Quantico, the training films are now using that encounter as an example of an officer at risk. As Leonidas mentioned: side profile, strong hand hidden from officer, diversion hand, ets.

You will never hear the media mention the gun, that was hushed up by the police department itself. Classic example in Utah. Very old Vernal family, grandpa Charles, his sons Van and Rick, several uncles all pretty much run Unitah County. They are a very large employer there. Can you say "INFLUENCE".

Imagine CNN sending a female reporter to Vernal to get the facts. I don't think she gets much cooperation.

Local news, hahahahaha, they get 50% of their advertising from a Massey Fence, or Massey Hunting, or Massey Line Co. Classic western story.

Have fun with it, I'm off to Ft. Benning to work with USAMU on some safety techniques.

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OK... watch what is more of the video... the 40 mph sign was only yards from where he was stopped...

I still think that he was not doing what he was supposed to do... and the officer was justified... but it was not like it was a clear cut case of speeding like the short video showed... however, he did pay the fine...

Utah: Motorist Tasered Over Minor Traffic Ticket
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Old 06-15-2009, 04:21 PM   #117
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He said that when you stop someone you always have to expect the worse case senario. When I got out of my car, he didn't know my intentions.
I've never quite understood this one. Of course, if traffic is nearby
the officer has a duty to help keep you (and himself) safe. Absent
this, it seems like you're a lot more likely to be able to harm the
officer with a weapon if you're hidden away inside your dark car,
perhaps with a firearm nearby, than if you're standing out in the open
in plain view.
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Old 06-15-2009, 04:24 PM   #118
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the officer has a duty to help keep you (and himself) safe. Absent this, it seems like you're a lot more likely to be able to harm the officer with a weapon if you're hidden away inside your dark car, perhaps with a firearm nearby, than if you're standing out in the open
in plain view.
I would think it depends in large part where your hands are. If they are way up in the air, away from your pockets or any other place on your person where you could be concealing a weapon, you could be right.

I'm no cop and I've never gone through police training, but more than anything my understanding is that they want to see where your hands are at all times, and that preferably they remain far away from any place where you could suddenly produce a weapon.
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Old 06-15-2009, 04:28 PM   #119
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Is it just my imagination, or is it the case that in virtually
all of these situations where officers may or may not have used
excessive force, that the suspect/victim is alone ?
I wonder what's going on ?

Do a person's companions admonish them to stop being a
jerk to the officer ? Does the officer somehow feel LESS
threatened by more than one person ? Is an officer more
likely to try to push a person around if they're alone ? Just
wondering ...
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Old 06-15-2009, 05:04 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyShackleford View Post
Is it just my imagination,.

Yes, in this case it is.
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