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Old 09-16-2016, 03:53 PM   #21
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People in undeveloped countries worry about lack of clean drinking water or their next meal, not that it might be 1/10 of a degree warmer.
In some undeveloped countries the reason there is a lack of clean drinking water is due to droughts that are the direct result of climate change. So yeah, you're right - the people in those countries aren't pondering the fact that the earth is warming due to human activity but rather how to stave off the resulting starvation that they are experiencing as a consequence.
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Old 09-17-2016, 08:08 AM   #22
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In some undeveloped countries the reason there is a lack of clean drinking water is due to droughts that are the direct result of climate change. So yeah, you're right - the people in those countries aren't pondering the fact that the earth is warming due to human activity but rather how to stave off the resulting starvation that they are experiencing as a consequence.
No one has proven anything of the sort. In fact, the opposite has been proven...increased CO2 has led to increased plant growth, which, of course, means greater crop yield.
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Old 09-17-2016, 08:40 AM   #23
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No one has proven anything of the sort. In fact, the opposite has been proven...increased CO2 has led to increased plant growth, which, of course, means greater crop yield.
On this matter, you and I will just have to agree to disagree.

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Old 09-17-2016, 08:43 AM   #24
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I try not to be wasteful and live mostly by the first two Rs of the three (Reduce & Reuse). This is also good for my budget. But frankly in terms of environmental impact, I think it's insignificant compared to taking one less flight per year or having fewer children.
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Old 09-17-2016, 08:50 AM   #25
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In some undeveloped countries the reason there is a lack of clean drinking water is due to droughts that are the direct result of climate change. So yeah, you're right - the people in those countries aren't pondering the fact that the earth is warming due to human activity but rather how to stave off the resulting starvation that they are experiencing as a consequence.
Not sure this is so clear cut. from :

Causes of Drought: What's the Climate Connection? | Union of Concerned Scientists

emphasis mine
Quote:
Global climate change affects a variety of factors associated with drought. There is high confidence that increased temperatures will lead to more precipitation falling as rain rather than snow, earlier snow melt, and increased evaporation and transpiration.
So are those undeveloped countries dependent on snowfall, or rainfall? Also note at that and other sites, there are a lot of qualifiers in almost everything - 'potentially', etc.

-ERD50
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Old 09-17-2016, 09:06 AM   #26
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On this matter, you and I will just have to agree to disagree.

You aren't just disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with science.

Back on the original topic...I have always lived a frugal lifestyle with very little waste. I've always had 4-cylinder vehicles, small homes, never owned motorized toys, practiced low consumption, etc. I would expect my "elephant" footprint is lower than most.
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Old 09-17-2016, 10:31 AM   #27
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Not sure this is so clear cut. from :

Causes of Drought: What's the Climate Connection? | Union of Concerned Scientists

emphasis mine


So are those undeveloped countries dependent on snowfall, or rainfall? Also note at that and other sites, there are a lot of qualifiers in almost everything - 'potentially', etc.

-ERD50
I did state "some countries". Climate change does manifest itself in various ways with severe weather events becoming more frequent & intense in the form of greater precipitation in some instances & drought in others. Developing areas of the world lacking resources & infrastructure are less equipped to cope with these events.
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Old 09-17-2016, 10:39 AM   #28
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You aren't just disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with science.

Back on the original topic...I have always lived a frugal lifestyle with very little waste. I've always had 4-cylinder vehicles, small homes, never owned motorized toys, practiced low consumption, etc. I would expect my "elephant" footprint is lower than most.
I am disagreeing with you and the science you rely on in forming your opinions about climate change. You are disagreeing with me based on the same premise.

But as you say - back on the original topic and a focus on what unites rather than divides us.... We do agree 100% on frugality as one of the best methods for not only reducing our footprints on the ecosystem, but also as a more sustainable means for FI. And for that less elephants approach you are taking I would say, "congratulations" & "well done"!
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Old 09-17-2016, 11:09 AM   #29
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...

But as you say - back on the original topic and a focus on what unites rather than divides us.... We do agree 100% on frugality as one of the best methods for not only reducing our footprints on the ecosystem, but also as a more sustainable means for FI. And for that less elephants approach you are taking I would say, "congratulations" & "well done"!
Yes, avoiding waste makes sense, but I don't think we can extend that to say that the 'one elephant' footprint individual is a model to follow.

In general, the lower footprint groups are probably not developing medicines to fight terrible diseases, or developing enabling technologies for people with disabilities, or communication systems to help people keep in touch or summon help when needed.

Those things require resources. But yes, we could do much to eliminate wasted resources.

A recent example was the thread on the cell phone with the battery bursting into flames. Yes, non removable batteries can provide some advantages in keeping the phone sleek and waterproof, and many indicated a preference for that. But it also means you can't just swap out a battery when something like this happens, and the phone is much more likely to be tossed (hopefully recycled, but that's not perfect and takes energy) when the battery gets weak, rather than just replace the battery. Maybe the 1st owner would prefer to just buy new at that time, but with a fresh battery, that phone could be used by a consumer who doesn't need to latest/greatest. Better to get a few more years out of it before it hits the recycle pile.

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Old 09-17-2016, 11:23 AM   #30
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A recent example was the thread on the cell phone with the battery bursting into flames. Yes, non removable batteries can provide some advantages in keeping the phone sleek and waterproof, and many indicated a preference for that. But it also means you can't just swap out a battery when something like this happens, and the phone is much more likely to be tossed (hopefully recycled, but that's not perfect and takes energy) when the battery gets weak, rather than just replace the battery. Maybe the 1st owner would prefer to just buy new at that time, but with a fresh battery, that phone could be used by a consumer who doesn't need to latest/greatest. Better to get a few more years out of it before it hits the recycle pile.

-ERD50

Or... one can continue to use a 30 year old landline phone like I do.

Isn't it amazing how long civilization was able to function without computers and cell phones.

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Old 09-17-2016, 11:49 AM   #31
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Yes, avoiding waste makes sense, but I don't think we can extend that to say that the 'one elephant' footprint individual is a model to follow.


-ERD50
Agreed on all counts. Maybe a better way to view the 8 vs single elephant comparison would be to say that in developed nations we have an obligation to our brothers & sisters in less developed parts of the world to do what we can to eliminate the unnecessaries - i.e. wastefulness as other posters have suggested. Let's see if we can collectively reduce by a full elephant, or so. If we don't, and matters continue on its current pace related to consumption & worldwide population growth, it won't be long 'til we run out of enough "stuff" to sustain any elephants at all!
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Old 09-17-2016, 11:51 AM   #32
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Or... one can continue to use a 30 year old landline phone like I do.

Isn't it amazing how long civilization was able to function without computers and cell phones.

.
I sometimes go months w/o using my cell phone and average just a few minutes a month, outside of a few exceptions.

But I don't like being w/o it. When you would like to use it, it sure is convenient. And in those cases, the call often saves resources.

Society 'functioned' without landline phones too. Surgery was done w/o anesthetic and with no knowledge of germs and septic procedures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assass...es_A._Garfield

Quote:
Unfortunately for Garfield, most American doctors of the day did not believe in anti-sepsis measures or the need for cleanliness to prevent infection.[56] Several inserted their unsterilized fingers into the wound to probe for the bullet, and one doctor punctured Garfield's liver in doing so.
The good old days? No thanks!

-ERD50
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Old 09-17-2016, 11:51 AM   #33
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Isn't it amazing how long civilization was able to function without computers and cell phones.

.
Amen to that!! How I miss the days of my employer lacking the means to reach out and "touch me"!
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Old 09-17-2016, 12:07 PM   #34
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.

My brother recently retired from NASA. Before he retired, NASA interviewed him concerning the old Apollo quarantine system at the spacecraft center in Houston [where my brother's lab was located.] My brother was one of the last left who understood and experienced the quarantine... information NASA saw as valuable for future missions to Mars. One of the interesting parts of the interview was how the Apollo scientists got data in and out of quarantine without PCs and cell phones. They rigged up a copy machine with the input inside quarantine and the output outside quarantine... then called [landline] someone outside quarantine to pick up the data.

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Old 09-17-2016, 12:12 PM   #35
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Consumption of resources goes hand in hand with production. Unless one wants to return to a pre-industrial era, efficiency is the only practical way to manage resources.

Preaching efficiency here is preaching to the choir. For the most part members are very efficient otherwise they would not be on the path to or have reached FIRE.
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Old 09-17-2016, 12:20 PM   #36
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Amen to that!! How I miss the days of my employer lacking the means to reach out and "touch me"!

I value my privacy. Most of the time I allow calls on my landline to go to voicemail.

However, tracking criminals via their cell phones is very helpful to law enforcement who also have access to text message records.

.
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Old 09-17-2016, 01:49 PM   #37
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Surgery was done w/o anesthetic and with no knowledge of germs and septic procedures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assass...es_A._Garfield



The good old days? No thanks!

-ERD50
I guess we aren't counting whiskey and a stick to bite on as anesthesia.
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Old 09-17-2016, 02:03 PM   #38
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Using the trash volume indicator, it would take my wife and I well over a month, possibly two to fill the standard size Waste Management can. Many of my neighbors have trouble closing the lid each week, sheesh.
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Old 09-17-2016, 03:01 PM   #39
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Agreed on all counts. Maybe a better way to view the 8 vs single elephant comparison would be to say that in developed nations we have an obligation to our brothers & sisters in less developed parts of the world to do what we can to eliminate the unnecessaries - i.e. wastefulness as other posters have suggested. Let's see if we can collectively reduce by a full elephant, or so. If we don't, and matters continue on its current pace related to consumption & worldwide population growth, it won't be long 'til we run out of enough "stuff" to sustain any elephants at all!
I don't see how you can say that "people in developed nations have an obligation to our brothers & sisters (people) in less developed parts of the world to do what we can to eliminate the unnecessaries".......I don't feel I do, and there is no basis that I know of that says we have any obligation to anyone in other nations, developed or otherwise, unless we have some sort of contractual agreement.
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Old 09-17-2016, 03:18 PM   #40
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I don't see how you can say that "people in developed nations have an obligation to our brothers & sisters (people) in less developed parts of the world to do what we can to eliminate the unnecessaries".......I don't feel I do, and there is no basis that I know of that says we have any obligation to anyone in other nations, developed or otherwise, unless we have some sort of contractual agreement.

Amen

Jesus said it is not good to take the children's bread and cast it to the dogs.

However, the dogs do eat the crumbs that fall from the table.

In other words, the whole world benefits from the overflow of abundance. It works on a similar principle as "a rising tide raises all ships."

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