9/11/07

[FinanceDude]

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Originally Posted by newguy888 The flag, ... what about getting bin laden and bringing him to justice?

Here you go again............

[Nords]

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Originally Posted by brewer12345 I suppose I must be lacking in some way, but I don't get the Merkin flag obsession either. I'll treat the flag with respect, but see no particular virtue in having slathered all over, well, everything. Aside from signalling to everyone else that you wish to be thought of as a rabid jingoist (like them), I don't get it.

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Originally Posted by Outtahere I've been displaying the American flag at my home for as long as I can remember, my grandparents did it and when I purchased the house from them I kept up the tradition. I'll keep it displayed as long as I'm there and hope someone after me does the same.

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Originally Posted by brewer12345 Don't mean to cause insult, but I am genuinely curious: why?

I can understand the sentiment & memories associated with a family member raising & lowering the flag at their house or for ceremonies. In our case I remember the thousands of colors ceremonies I've done over the years, and our kid enjoys her memories of learning to do it in 5th grade. A neighbor displays their flag because it started as their kid's merit badges in Boy/Girl Scouts.

A house in our town has three no-foolin' 20-foot flagpoles on the street side of their lot. They're always displaying the American & USMC flags and the third flag rotates among German, Italian, & Hawaiian flags. I think that the USMC flag is a nice recruiting ad as well as a good way to advertise that the owner is not to be trifled with.

The Hawaiian flag is frequently flown here, and it's not unusual to see it flown upside-down as a soveriegnty symbol. It was a major fuss in 1993 (centennial of the monarchy's overthrow) when Iolani Palace lowered the American flag and flew only the Hawaiian flag for the day. It was also a major fuss the next day when they raised the American flag again...

[laurence]

Quote:

Originally Posted by brewer12345 Don't mean to cause insult, but I am genuinely curious: why?

I'll take a stab as to why I did it - you know I don't blindly follow whatever the administration says. But for me, it's about an ideal, a concept that's greater than any individual. So many countries in the world are ruled by a dictator, a cult of personality, or an unofficial oligarchy (I think Mexico has 90%+ of it's wealth and power shared among 400 families). The ideals of what this flag, this Constitution, and this Declaration of Independence represent the best of what humankind can imagine. The fact that we often fall short of that ideal should not in any way take away from it.

That's not to say there aren't jerks out their who have pasted their F-350 with flag stickers - one cut me off just this morning.

[TexasGal]

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Originally Posted by Goonie We fly our flag to honor all of the veterans, living and deceased, that have fought to keep and to protect the freedom that we, as Americans, cherish and enjoy!!! I don't like most of our politicians, but I most certainly LOVE our magnificent country!!! And I'll definitely keep Old Glory flying here at my homestead until they plant my @$$ 6 feet under!!! To do otherwise would be.....peculiar!

Goonie, couldn't have said it better myself! Same goes for me. And laurencewill, I think you are right on!

My dad was a WWII vet. I went out yesterday and placed a small flag on his grave where it proudly waves in the breeze today. When that little flag begins to show wear, I'll place a new one. If anyone had ever desecrated the flag in front of him (or even questioned his patriotism), even at age 90 he would have been prepared to get them "straightened out".

When you are raised from the time you are born to believe everything listed in the quote above, there is great respect for the flag and all that it means.

I am always slightly suspicious of someone who does not feel a strong sense of patriotism as though there is just something a little "off". Sorry for the bias, but it is just built into my psyche. I am sure those of you who find my attitude curious and strange are very fine and well-intentioned people, but as said in the quote, I find it "peculiar" that you don't feel the same way I do. No criticism intended, but there are strong emotions attached to love of my country and love of the symbol that represents my country so there is emotion in this post.

This is set in stone with me. I will never change. Whip out the flag and my eyes always tear up.

And, once again, please NO OFFENSE intended to anyone here who does not feel the same way.

[brewer12345]

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Originally Posted by laurencewill I'll take a stab as to why I did it - you know I don't blindly follow whatever the administration says. But for me, it's about an ideal, a concept that's greater than any individual. So many countries in the world are ruled by a dictator, a cult of personality, or an unofficial oligarchy (I think Mexico has 90%+ of it's wealth and power shared among 400 families). The ideals of what this flag, this Constitution, and this Declaration of Independence represent the best of what humankind can imagine. The fact that we often fall short of that ideal should not in any way take away from it.

And you feel that the display of an oddly patterned, brghtly colored piece of canvas is the best way to represent those ideals?

Not trying to cast aspersions, I guess I just don't get it. I feel sufficiently patriotic, but since I have an inherent distrust of institutions, symbols that appeal to large groups, and the military, I have a hard time seeing the display of a symbol as an important outcome of whatever patriotic feelings I harbor.

[packrat44]

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Originally Posted by Goonie We fly our flag to honor all of the veterans, living and deceased, that have fought to keep and to protect the freedom that we, as Americans, cherish and enjoy!!! I don't like most of our politicians, but I most certainly LOVE our magnificent country!!! And I'll definitely keep Old Glory flying here at my homestead until they plant my @$$ 6 feet under!!! To do otherwise would be.....peculiar!

Stated very well!

My father; father in law; and uncles served in WWII. Two of my brothers and I along with many cousins served during the Viet Nam conflict. My son and more nephews than I have fingers and toes to count them on are now serving or have served in the most recent conflict.

I fly the flag mainly in honor or those who did serve protecting the rest of us and who never came home alive.

[laurence]

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Originally Posted by brewer12345 And you feel that the display of an oddly patterned, brghtly colored piece of canvas is the best way to represent those ideals? Not trying to cast aspersions, I guess I just don't get it. I feel sufficiently patriotic, but since I have an inherent distrust of institutions, symbols that appeal to large groups, and the military, I have a hard time seeing the display of a symbol as an important outcome of whatever patriotic feelings I harbor.

Well, pasting a copy of the Constitution on your bumper doesn't communicate as well, and you get rear ended a lot as people try to read the fine print.

What you have is an inherent distrust of is nationalism, the dark side of patriotism. Nationalism is the path to xenophobia, master race theory, Nazi's et. al. I definitely agree there are dangers there that must be guarded against.

People identify with symbols, the cross, the flag, a clover if you're Irish, the Globe and Anchor if you are a former Marine or have family who are/were. The displaying of the flag is extols a sense of community, of brotherhood. It's quickly recognizable. What bothers me is those who meaninglessly display the flag and allow flags to become litter. Living in a border town means some have co-opted it to mean "Mexicans go home" which also bothers me to no end.

[Dawg52]

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Originally Posted by brewer12345 I guess I just don't get it. I feel sufficiently patriotic, but since I have an inherent distrust of institutions, symbols that appeal to large groups, and the military, I have a hard time seeing the display of a symbol as an important outcome of whatever patriotic feelings I harbor.

Thats the difference. Most that fly the flag think of it in terms as how Goonie stated it "We fly our flag to honor all of the veterans, living and deceased, that have fought to keep and to protect the freedom that we, as Americans, cherish and enjoy!!!"

[brewer12345]

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Originally Posted by Dawg52 Thats the difference. Most that fly the flag think of it in terms as how Goonie stated it "We fly our flag to honor all of the veterans, living and deceased, that have fought to keep and to protect the freedom that we, as Americans, cherish and enjoy!!!"

Hmmm, well, I have a distrust of the military, not necessarily those who serve in it (although I tend to have little patience for those who get too caught up in groupthink inside authoritarian structures). I still don't quite get how display of a piece of canvas honors the sacrifices all those people have made and continue to make.

Guess I will probably never really understand.

[Peaceful_Warrior]

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Originally Posted by newguy888 The flag, ... what about getting bin laden and bringing him to justice?

Another option is for the US to have less aggressive foreign policy...

[Dawg52]

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Originally Posted by brewer12345 Hmmm, well, I have a distrust of the military, not necessarily those who serve in it (although I tend to have little patience for those who get too caught up in groupthink inside authoritarian structures). I still don't quite get how display of a piece of canvas honors the sacrifices all those people have made and continue to make. Guess I will probably never really understand.

It's just a personal choice. If it makes one feel good flying it, great I say. I don't think most are trying to shove their beliefs down one's throat by flying the flag. Just a feel good thing.

I don't fly one. Don't have any bumper stickers either. Just not me. But I do have patriotic beliefs as you.

[Nords]

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Originally Posted by brewer12345 Hmmm, well, I have a distrust of the military, not necessarily those who serve in it (although I tend to have little patience for those who get too caught up in groupthink inside authoritarian structures).

I think once you've groupthinked your way through an authoritarian structure you have a much deeper appreciation for their proper applications as well as how to avoid them. Kinda like the difference between reading what other people think about sex and actually conducting your own hands-on research.

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Originally Posted by brewer12345 I still don't quite get how display of a piece of canvas honors the sacrifices all those people have made and continue to make. Guess I will probably never really understand.

It's just a symbol, admittedly more infrastructure to fund and to care for. One frequent suggestion is that you're honoring it in memory of all those who'd wish they were still alive to do so.

I think we're trying to analyze an emotional concept, an effort that's probably doomed to fail.

I still don't get those vehicles with rear-window stickers that say "In Loving Memory Of..." Surely there's a more lasting way to honor some dear departed's memory than to splurge the inheritance on a depreciating, rusting consumable.

[nun]

I'd never fly a flag or wear one of those awful flag pins as for me neither is connected with my sorrow and sadness about 9/11. I'm not big on the whole modern concept of the nation state and feel that more evil than good comes from waving flags and expressing exceptionalism and patriotism.

Now that I think of it I'm not a big fan of clubs or societies of any kind; college frats strike me as ridiculous and childish; sports clubs are often just ways of like minded people excluding people that they see as different, I'm not saying that people should be stopped form joining clubs, I just don't get it. I suppose I'm a bit of a misanthrope and as I see nations as just another form of club with membership rules and stupid symbols I can't really understand the need to fly a flag to express one's sorrow or solidarity.

[dumpster56]

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Originally Posted by FinanceDude Here you go again............

I will not back down on this issue. We now have a 6 year timeframe with bin laden able to make videos and propagate them to the press and governments is just unexcusable. Yes I will be told finding him is like looking for a needle in a haystack , etc. Bottom line this administration has failed the american people especially the 3000 who were killed on 9/11 by not bringing him or alzwahiri to justice. Sorry the Iraqi invasion was and continues to be one of the worst american failures of modern times.

[flipstress]

I'm a new American, legal-wise--got my citizenship in 2004. At the oath-taking ceremony, the Daughters of the American Revolution gave us each a small flag and a small gold-print copy of the Declaration of Independence. I have kept them as personal mementos, and the little flag is in a vase at home.

I love the country, which to me includes the place and the people. Coincidentally, I celebrate my birthday on the 4th of July, and I enjoy the parades, fireworks, and flag displays on that day, very appropriate for the nation's birthday. I thought before that it would be cute to wear an outfit with a flag pattern on my birthday but now it just seems to me to be somehow disrespectful or even presumptuous.

I also know that the flag is a symbol to honor the veterans on Memorial Day.

While I grew up in the Philippines, we didn't display the Philippine flag in our neighborhood, not even during the country's independence day, IIRC. Maybe it was lack of patriotism, lack of pride, lack of belief in our standing then as a nation. I do remember doing flag ceremonies everyday in school after Marcos declared martial law. Maybe he was trying to instill patriotism. (I was often late to school and the punishment was meant to trigger embarrassment but it didn't lessen my tardiness--I had to sing the Philippine national anthem and recite the oath of allegiance in front of the flag alone or with a few other late-comers.)

I have been in the US for almost 24 years but of course, I have no historical or family traditions of displaying the US flag. I can understand those who feel strongly about such traditions. I don't do it because I don't quite feel like I am a true American because I was 21 when I first came here. I also think of it as a symbol of military power and domination, and I am conflicted about that, or the purposes to which such power is used.

Anyway, I wish we had a symbol to commemorate 9/11 rather than the US flag.

[dumpster56]

Oh and by the way the Islamic animals that attacked us on 9/11 and on other dates are doing it not to take away american freedoms, its all about foreign policy, american foreign policy. Just like back when the old soviet union went into afgahnistan and bin laden was there fighting with the mujahadin, it was soviet foreign policy, they were fighting against.

[dumpster56]

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Originally Posted by flipstress d. Anyway, I wish we had a symbol to commemorate 9/11 rather than the US flag.

How about the capture of Osama Bin Laden?

[Outtahere]

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Originally Posted by brewer12345 Don't mean to cause insult, but I am genuinely curious: why?

No insult taken. I asked the same question of my grandmother when I was a kid, I wanted to know why they kept it out year round while everyone else only put it out on the 4th of July. She told me that my grandfathers only brother died fighting in WWII, from that point on my grandfather displayed the flag in honor of his brother. Once they were gone and I inherited the house it just felt natural to keep the flag displayed for my great uncle and for all the others that put their lives on the line for that flag.

After 9/11 everyone in my neighborhood displayed some kind of flag, today I'm the only one left.

[flipstress]

nun, here's a flag for you.

I am not a joiner myself but I am a default member of the group depicted by this flag.

[nun]

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Originally Posted by flipstress nun, here's a flag for you. I am not a joiner myself but I am a default member of the group depicted by this flag.

Like I said I'm a misanthrope, I may be on this planet, but I'm pretty mad at having to share it, I reject your flag even more than the flag of any single nation state as it includes all nation states