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Re: 92 Year Old Woman Killed in the War on Some Drugs
Old 11-24-2006, 07:01 PM   #21
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Re: 92 Year Old Woman Killed in the War on Some Drugs

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Personally I would've been out the back exit like a scared bunny. I can replace the house's contents, and if my family didn't make it out with me then I'd still be able to do a lot more for them by running to a neighbor's phone without the defiant Horatio-at-the-bridge act.
I suspect, if and when I'm 92, I probably won't be capable of moving like a scared bunny.

I've also noticed over the years there are a sad number of elderly, especially ladies, who are brutally murdered and raped by sick whack jobs in poor parts of town. The elderly are easily victim to predation.


This subject has been debated for many years now. I would hope eventually the more responsible members of law enforcement would at least get tired of the bad press, if not the bodies.

What is so easy to miss is the impossible situation this creates for innocents, especially in tough parts of town. When someone is busting in your door, it happens so quickly that there is little time to discern whether they are really cops, just pretending to be cops, or common thugs with no imagination.

I find it amazing that when some of us were kids, police would surround a building where there was a violent felon, and tell them to exit ... and stood ready to respond with deadly force if necessary. It's a shame that so many LEO's apparently think the extra trouble just isn't worth it ... easier and more of an adrenaline charge for some to just bust in.

But, we'll see what the investigation shows ...
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Re: 92 Year Old Woman Killed in the War on Some Drugs
Old 11-24-2006, 09:00 PM   #22
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Re: 92 Year Old Woman Killed in the War on Some Drugs

Surreal--1) The "no knock" warrant would suggest the drugs were purchased inside the house. Those warrants are not easily given out.

2) Good point.

3) If you can find a drug dealer using their real name they are rookies. As soon as the dealer heard auntie was shot because of a drug raid, he left the area.

4) You won't find out where the narcotics were found until after the investigation is over. Since the article states the woman started shooting as soon as the cops opened the door, my guess is they were found after the shooting stopped. "Recovered from the home," is reporter speak for inside the house.

Old McDonald--IA does an investigation to determine if any policies violated. The prosecutor does an investigation to determine if a law was broken. Contrary to popular belief the police and prosecutors do not always get along.

Charles--You bring up a good point. The art icle states the woman started shooting as soon as the officer's approached the door. Unless this woman is very quick, it would seem she was holding the pistol waiting for the officer's to open the door. When the officers are attempting to bust a drug dealer the last thing they want is to advise the dealer of a raid, so surrounding the house and asking them to come out results in a loss of all of the evidence and results in lost cases. One of the agencies in the area I worked required narcotics officers to advise the Chief 24 hours advance of any drug raid. It was amazing once this guy became Chief the number of drug arrests declined immensely. Eventually the other local agencies and the Sheriff's Office got tired of the drug dealers listing their addresses in the city, so enforcement was stepped up. The Chief would become very angry when the Sheriff's Office would do a raid in his jurisdiction without notifying him. It all became clear when a pattern appeared that the Chief's family was into dealing drugs.
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Re: 92 Year Old Woman Killed in the War on Some Drugs
Old 11-24-2006, 09:46 PM   #23
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Re: 92 Year Old Woman Killed in the War on Some Drugs

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When the officers are attempting to bust a drug dealer the last thing they want is to advise the dealer of a raid, so surrounding the house and asking them to come out results in a loss of all of the evidence and results in lost cases.
And a lot more hostage/barricade situations. These can end badly, too.

- We do need to examine our whole national approach to drugs, but is that really what this incident is about? An identical incident could have occured if the police had broken in the door believing an armed robbery suspect was inside: Granny could have shot at the cops, and they could have killed her. It seems clear that if folks were committing crimes in the house (whatever they were), then these are the folks most directly responsible for putting Granny at risk. When police are faced wth the problem of apprehending suspects believed to be armed and dangerous, I think the cops deserve to have the element of surprise on their side.

- And, just a point: is there any "reverse-profiling" going on in our assumptions? If, instead of a 90+ YO woman we were talking about a 22 YO male, there would be a lot more folks assuming he was in on whatever bad stuff was happening in the house. I'd guess it is likely Granny wasn't knowlingly resisting the cops, but stranger things have happened. All cops have bizarre stories from responding to domestic disturbance calls: folks change sides very rapidly, and the cops often end up being the common enemy.

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Re: 92 Year Old Woman Killed in the War on Some Drugs
Old 11-25-2006, 02:14 AM   #24
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Re: 92 Year Old Woman Killed in the War on Some Drugs

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Originally Posted by bosco
bringing "kiddies" into this argument is a red herring and a not-so-subtle change of the subject.
I did not bring "kiddies" into the argument. The poster I was responding to mentioned children having access to drugs.
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Re: 92 Year Old Woman Killed in the War on Some Drugs
Old 11-25-2006, 09:04 AM   #25
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Re: 92 Year Old Woman Killed in the War on Some Drugs

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But I suspect that a lot of the violence is related to the extremely high profits that are largely the result of the black market aspects.
You mean, like, enough money to by a submarine?
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Re: 92 Year Old Woman Killed in the War on Some Drugs
Old 11-25-2006, 10:14 AM   #26
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Re: 92 Year Old Woman Killed in the War on Some Drugs

... and, enough money to buy some governments ... federal, state, local ...
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Re: 92 Year Old Woman Killed in the War on Some Drugs
Old 11-25-2006, 10:37 AM   #27
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Re: 92 Year Old Woman Killed in the War on Some Drugs

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Originally Posted by youbet
But how do you declare the war on drugs over? Suddenly my young grandchildren can stop by the corner store and pick up some cocaine? I need a prescription to get my generic beta blocker but the kiddies have their meth delivered right at the playlot?
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How do you manifest this end to the war on drugs? Complete open market with any drug available to anyone regardless of age? Regulations? What would be the basics of the regs?
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Originally Posted by youbet
I did not bring "kiddies" into the argument. The poster I was responding to mentioned children having access to drugs.
maybe a previous poster brought it up, but it certainly appears that you brought "kiddies" into the argument. Not that I think "kiddies" don't matter, just that bringing them front and center obscures the issue.

My point is simply that if it can be worked out with alcohol, tobacco, prescription drugs, guns, power tools, electricity, automobiles.....then maybe it's not a valid argument for keeping drugs illegal and that a more productive discussion could occur without this hot button.

that's not to say I don't believe that there will still be problems with drugs relating to their abuse by kids--just like there are with kids and the entire list above.
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Re: 92 Year Old Woman Killed in the War on Some Drugs
Old 11-25-2006, 11:06 AM   #28
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Re: 92 Year Old Woman Killed in the War on Some Drugs

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Originally Posted by bosco
maybe a previous poster brought it up, but it certainly appears that you brought "kiddies" into the argument.
Nope, you're wrong on that. The previous poster mentioned the current availability of illegal drugs to children and I picked up on that since I think legalizing hard drugs will create new problems in regard to minors. These problems/abuses have the potential to be more severe than with alcohol or tobacco.
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Re: 92 Year Old Woman Killed in the War on Some Drugs
Old 11-25-2006, 11:10 AM   #29
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Re: 92 Year Old Woman Killed in the War on Some Drugs

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Originally Posted by lets-retire
One of the agencies in the area I worked required narcotics officers to advise the Chief 24 hours advance of any drug raid. It was amazing once this guy became Chief the number of drug arrests declined immensely. Eventually the other local agencies and the Sheriff's Office got tired of the drug dealers listing their addresses in the city, so enforcement was stepped up.
We had a dope house 2 doors down from us for several years. They had more traffic there 24hrs/day than a McDonald's drive-up at lunch time. But, about an hour or so before a raid by the local cops, traffic dried up...completely!!! The cops would knock on the door with warrant in hand, go in, search, and find NOTHING!!! This happened for several years.

We, the neighbors got fed up, and contacted the State Police. They were given a compiled list of license plate #s, time of day, pictures....etc. They said to contact local police. We told them the stories of local cops past "efforts". A few days later, the State boys got a "No Knock" warrant, kicked down the doors, found a load of dope, and hauled them all off to the pokey!!! At trial convictions were handed down, and several of them went for a trip to the pen. One of the dope suppliers beat the rap, and moved to a different town. He was busted there in less than month by their local force, and is now serving 15 years!!!

The 'dirty cops' (starting at the very top) are no longer with our local dept. and dope dealers in town are getting busted on a regular basis now. We now have a consciencious police force, that upholds the law, and doesn't protect the criminals. And our neighborhood is safe and dope-dealer free, again.

The war may rage on, but battles ARE being won!!!
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Re: 92 Year Old Woman Killed in the War on Some Drugs
Old 11-25-2006, 11:14 AM   #30
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Re: 92 Year Old Woman Killed in the War on Some Drugs

Goonie ... congrat's, but ... the reason they were doing business out of the house down the street is because it is the war on some drugs. You don't have any problems with moonshiners down the street, do you ...
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Re: 92 Year Old Woman Killed in the War on Some Drugs
Old 11-25-2006, 11:35 AM   #31
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Re: 92 Year Old Woman Killed in the War on Some Drugs

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Originally Posted by samclem
- And, just a point: is there any "reverse-profiling" going on in our assumptions? If, instead of a 90+ YO woman we were talking about a 22 YO male, there would be a lot more folks assuming he was in on whatever bad stuff was happening in the house...........
Here in our county we've had several "senior citizens" convicted on drug manufacturing, and dealing!!! When I say "senior", I'm talking 60's, 70's AND 80's! Obviously, that's NOT the norm, however it DOES happen. (supplimental retirement income?? ) One guy employed his entire family in his "business". (not sure if they got adjoining rooms at the state pen).
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Re: 92 Year Old Woman Killed in the War on Some Drugs
Old 11-25-2006, 02:10 PM   #32
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Re: 92 Year Old Woman Killed in the War on Some Drugs

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Originally Posted by Goonie
Here in our county we've had several "senior citizens" convicted on drug manufacturing, and dealing!!! When I say "senior", I'm talking 60's, 70's AND 80's! Obviously, that's NOT the norm, however it DOES happen. (supplimental retirement income?? ) One guy employed his entire family in his "business". (not sure if they got adjoining rooms at the state pen).
http://opioids.com/legal/elderly.html

"When a person is on Social Security, drawing $500 a month, and they can sell their pain pills for $10 apiece, they'll take half of them for themselves and sell the other half to pay their electric bills or buy groceries," Kentucky jailer Roger Webb recently told reporters.

And, some suspect that the problems in Kentucky may be mirrored elsewhere in the country. Why is this happening? Seniors, they say, need ways to raise money for living expenses that they otherwise can't afford. Monthly checks from the government just won't cut it.

In Bellaire, Ohio, for example, one 65-year-old man was arrested in November after authorities said he sold undercover officers $350 worth of Percocet pills. The man, who is currently in jail pending a court hearing, said he was just looking for a way to pay for his wife's medical bills. His wife has multiple sclerosis.

But, despite their age and struggles, seniors convicted of drug trafficking could face years in prison.

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Re: 92 Year Old Woman Killed in the War on Some Drugs
Old 11-25-2006, 02:47 PM   #33
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Re: 92 Year Old Woman Killed in the War on Some Drugs

So, keeping drugs illegal helps the elderly! And to think everyone was saying President Bush isn't truly compassionate.

Again, free markets prove their worth.
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