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Old 11-24-2012, 07:38 AM   #21
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No, I think that's what the Deceleration of Independence was trying to say, that there were inalienable rights not conferred by tradition, a ruling monarch, religion, etc.
Deceleration? And here I thought they were trying to speed up rights?
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Old 11-24-2012, 07:46 AM   #22
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It's interesting reading this thread after researching the meaning of "asking for a woman's hand/manus in marriage" which really meant asking for her legal custody and property to be transferred from her father to her husband. All adult children in Ancient Rome were under the total legal authority of their father including control over their life or death. A man did not become emancipated (have full legal rights) until his father died. There was no concept of individual rights, everything was based on family rights.

I didn't need to read the article. If women are considered chattel/property owned by their father or husband, pretty much anything goes in terms of controlling them.
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Old 11-24-2012, 07:47 AM   #23
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Deceleration? And here I thought they were trying to speed up rights?
Blame my iPad autocorrection which I didn't catch in time.
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Old 11-24-2012, 07:51 AM   #24
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Blame my iPad autocorrection which I didn't catch in time.
My 'autocorrection' usually kicks in the moment I hit 'send' ........and consists of me saying "Aw, ****".
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Old 11-24-2012, 07:51 AM   #25
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With all due respect I disagree. There are "cultural" practices that are plain wrong universally and should be condemned as such (i.e. excision).
My statement was more of being devil's advocate to another person's post.

I actually agree with you that there are practices that are plain wrong.
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Old 11-24-2012, 07:55 AM   #26
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My 'autocorrection' usually kicks in the moment I hit 'send' ........and consists of me saying "Aw, ****".
Well, the iPad seems to work the same way!
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:24 AM   #27
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I've heard that women are treated pretty poorly in Afghanistan. Maybe we should go straighten their backward a$$e$ out.

Oh....never mind.
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:15 AM   #28
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Agreed, but most are not a matter of law. If you don't like a "practice" in this country (USA), you can, for the most part, avoid it and those who adhere to it. In some areas, you might even be shunned for such avoidance, but the law will not come knocking at your door nor will you be lynched. And, if you choose to move to another location to get away from certain cultural practices, you will not be required to explain your actions (unless you want to). YMMV of course.
I guess that was the point. Many of these "cultural practices" have been codified into law in Islamic countries...

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With all due respect I disagree. There are "cultural" practices that are plain wrong universally and should be condemned as such (i.e. excision).
+1

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No, I think that's what the Declaration of Independence was trying to say, that there were inalienable rights not conferred by tradition, a ruling monarch, religion, etc.
Not entirely accurate. Jefferson said we were endowed by our creator. Unfortunately, the creator didn't tell everyone else...

It's appropriate, on the day of Larry Hagman's passing, to quote one Jock Ewing, answering a whine from Bobby about not being "given" the power to run Ewing Oil the way he saw fit: "Nobody gives you power; real power is something you TAKE"...

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Blame my iPad autocorrection which I didn't catch in time.
I eventually turned off autocorrection on my iPhone, though it did make for some humorous moments...
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:23 AM   #29
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It's truly awful to see women still treated as property in many parts of the world. And I believe the only way we will win the war against radical Islamist terrorism is when the Muslim women find a way to rise up and assert some control over their men. Western women are already working to help improve their lot and serve as role models for what modern women are all about and what they are capable of achieving.
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:55 AM   #30
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I agree that treating women as second class citizens in any way is wrong, I can't imagine living in a society like the one described in the OP link. Having said that, it's interesting how some of the replies (thankfully not all) are pretty high and mighty given the USA allowed slavery for many generations and indeed treated women as second class citizens for even longer. Many would argue women and minorities still haven't "arrived," even if there's been more progress in the USA.

Again, not defending the article, but a little humility since the USA hasn't been enlightened all along either despite the words in the Deceleration of Independence...
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:58 AM   #31
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With all due respect I disagree. There are "cultural" practices that are plain wrong universally and should be condemned as such (i.e. excision).
Even excision of malignant tumors?

I guess you do not do surgery?

Ha
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:02 AM   #32
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No, I think that's what the Declaration of Independence was trying to say, that there were inalienable rights not conferred by tradition, a ruling monarch, religion, etc.
Not entirely accurate. Jefferson said we were endowed by our creator. Unfortunately, the creator didn't tell everyone else...
I don't understand the contradiction. Are you saying by naming the creator as the bestower of inalienable rights on all human beings, they are conferred by religion? I don't think so - religion and "the creator" are not one and the same.
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:07 AM   #33
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It's truly awful to see women still treated as property in many parts of the world. And I believe the only way we will win the war against radical Islamist terrorism is when the Muslim women find a way to rise up and assert some control over their men. Western women are already working to help improve their lot and serve as role models for what modern women are all about and what they are capable of achieving.
Of course the Muslim word is well aware of western women, and modern western society. But they feel like Midwesterners feel about NYC-OK for a visit but wouldn't want to live there.


Also, before we feel so fantastically superior, we should remember that unlike Western Europe and white America, Muslim societies still manage to give birth to enough babies to replace their populations. Muslim culture has been growing and surviving for almost 1500 years. Please page me when the US reaches this milestone.

Ha
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:15 AM   #34
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I don't want to be too explicit about this practice, as I am sure you know which type of excision I am talking about.
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Even excision of malignant tumors?

I guess you do not do surgery?

Ha
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:20 AM   #35
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The good news:
- Any culture that, in effect, "throws away" the talents and work of 1/2 of its population is not going to compete well in the global economic struggle.
- Societies that subjugate rational thought and the scientific method to superstition will similarly not be very successful in a relative sense.
- Information and knowledge about how people in other places live is increasingly ubiquitous. 50 years ago many people behind the Iron Curtain were truly in the dark about real living standards and daily life in Western Europe, the US and Canada. Today, the public in all but the most repressive countries knows much of the truth. The Internet has made a big difference in this respect--it's tough to maintain an information embargo today.

These factors will tend to localize backwardness to increasingly isolated spots on the globe. It's very unfortunate for those who live there, but it's
useful to remember that oppression and privation have been the normal state of humanity since we've been keeping records. We should try to improve things in the "dark zones", but facilitating change is going to work better than trying to impose it.

The bad news:
-- Democracy by itself will not lead to an improvement in the situation in many of these countries. Obviously (look around), democracy without respect for individual liberty is just mob rule. Democracy can make things worse.
-- Asymmetric means of national conflict (terrorism, cyber-attacks, and soon to include nuclear capabilities) will allow even backward*, oppressive hellholes to challenge the interests of enlightened, developed countries. In the "old days" their lack of functioning economies would have made them irrelevant on the international stage since they couldn't field mass armies and couldn't build (or buy) cutting edge military technology. Effective means of international (and non-state) conflict have been made available even to have-not countries (Yippee!), somewhat reducing the value of the first two "good news" bullets above. (*And yes, there are "backward" countries.).
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:28 AM   #36
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The good news:
- Any culture that, in effect, "throws away" the talents and work of 1/2 of its population is not going to compete well in the global economic struggle.
+1
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:29 AM   #37
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It's interesting reading this thread after researching the meaning of "asking for a woman's hand/manus in marriage" which really meant asking for her legal custody and property to be transferred from her father to her husband. All adult children in Ancient Rome were under the total legal authority of their father including control over their life or death. A man did not become emancipated (have full legal rights) until his father died. There was no concept of individual rights, everything was based on family rights.

I didn't need to read the article. If women are considered chattel/property owned by their father or husband, pretty much anything goes in terms of controlling them.
The Western world has since become enlightened, thanks to education and technological advancement. Many other parts of the world where cultures are not open to change, the same cannot be said.
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:42 AM   #38
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I don't want to be too explicit about this practice, as I am sure you know which type of excision I am talking about.
Excise is a transitive verb. Excision therefore requires some reference-excision of...something.

As to your being sure that I know what you are talking about, how do you achieve this knowledge?

I received a PM telling me that you were probably talking about clitoral excision. I have heard of this, but know essentialy nothing of it. Please give some data on how widely practiced this is, and in which societies. Are there many complications? Is it done in hospitals, etc.?

I imagine that many of our ideas about Muslim culture are like many of our other ideas, just blowing in the wind and not based on disinterested observations.

I do know that male genital mutilation is very widely practiced in our supposedly advanced western societies. It is generally known as circumcision.

Ha
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:53 AM   #39
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I don't understand the contradiction. Are you saying by naming the creator as the bestower of inalienable rights on all human beings, they are conferred by religion? I don't think so - religion and "the creator" are not one and the same.
I suppose what I am saying is we have rights because we demand them, and are willing to fight, if necessary, to preserve them. Anything "given" can be taken away, and a great many people don't care what the creator allegedly said or conferred...
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:59 AM   #40
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I suppose what I am saying is we have rights because we demand them, and are willing to fight, if necessary, to preserve them. Anything "given" can be taken away, and a great many people don't care what the creator allegedly said or conferred...
I'm don't know at that has to do with it. The point of inalienable rights was that they were conferred on each human equally not won by "might" as had traditionally been true in Europe. So being willing to fight to preserve them seems beside the point.
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