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Old 05-02-2016, 08:49 AM   #41
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Well, my thinking may be outdated, because it's been years since I considered this.

My understanding was that the Prius did especially well in town, where you get energy from regenerative braking, and not using energy when waiting at stoplights.

If you're driving at a constant 65 MPH on a flat freeway, OTOH, your Prius is no different than a car with a gas engine.

Feel free to update my thinking.

Being a minimalist, I like the idea of getting rid of all the extra stuff that's needed with a gasoline engine.
I won't try to talk you in/out of anything, and you're right the Prius gets higher mpg city than highway. BUT The EPA estimate, FWIW is 58/53 city/highway - and that's not far from my experience after 40,000 miles. I have a 2012 Prius and I average about 55 mpg summer and about 45 winter - I drive both city and highway miles, a little more highway overall. IIRC you're in a (much) warmer climate than I am, so you should easily average about 50 mpg highway with a Prius. I know of few if any ICE cars that will average 50 mpg, there is a significant difference IME.

DW wanted an EV, but between purchase price, range anxiety/long charge times (without expensive fast charge equipment), and total emissions (depending on your power plant fuels) that are much higher than many people realize - the technology isn't there yet for us. YMMV
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Old 05-02-2016, 10:51 AM   #42
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BMW just announced that all new i3s will have 50% bigger batteries.

Existing models got 70-80 miles AER, depending on how you drove and whether you had a range extender.

But they're not citing total range yet.

Existing model is about 2900 pounds. Bigger batteries may add to the weight but it's still light.
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Old 05-02-2016, 11:25 AM   #43
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N=1, but I consistently get ~ 50mpg in my 2011 Prius, city or highway.
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Old 05-02-2016, 02:16 PM   #44
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T Al,

What are you going to do about the range limits? No more road trips? Rent a longer range vehicle? I think I would find 100-200 miles very limiting. The tesla superchargers might be okay (30 minutes to recharge if you're traveling along the supercharger routes).

I'd like to get an electric one day but find that most of our annual mileage is long range road trips instead of local city driving (though a typical trip here in the city is 1-5 miles).
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Old 05-03-2016, 12:08 PM   #45
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T Al,

What are you going to do about the range limits? No more road trips? Rent a longer range vehicle?
We would drive our Toyota Tacoma on long trips. MPG is only around 20, but it is actually good for long trips.
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Old 05-03-2016, 12:13 PM   #46
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Thanks for the great advice.

We had this revelation last night (actually, Lena thought of it):

Maybe we don't need two cars.

It's rare that we both need a car at the same time. I hardly ever gig anymore. The only time it would be a problem is in the case of an accident or a "I locked the keys in the car" event.

In any case, we can take our time in deciding on a car to replace the Echo.
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Old 05-03-2016, 12:16 PM   #47
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We would drive our Toyota Tacoma on long trips. MPG is only around 20, but it is actually good for long trips.
Forgot you had a second car, Al. That changes everything - get the Leaf or even one of these:

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Old 05-03-2016, 01:07 PM   #48
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DD is still driving the late DW's 2005 Prius. 160,000+ miles. No major problems. She loves it. Its amazing how much junk many necessary items she can get in it!
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Old 05-03-2016, 04:20 PM   #49
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I'll add one more note about the new Prii... since we're shopping for them too:

The 2016s (not the wagons or the C) have a lower aerodynamic drag coefficient than prior models which also helps boost their range to the 55/50 estimates (though as I said, some reviewers have stated up to 65(!) mpg combined... but that's probably like getting out and push-starting every stop light...
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Old 05-03-2016, 04:25 PM   #50
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Since your needs for a second car are modest I presume that you do not put many miles on that second car... if so, why not just go out and replace the Echo with another econo-box... something used and cheap but not a lot of miles. Since you put on so few miles with it what it gets for mileage doesn't matter much.
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Old 05-03-2016, 04:40 PM   #51
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... Since you put on so few miles with it what it gets for mileage doesn't matter much.
My wife's SUV gets 20 mpg on the highway. It's been driven so little after her retirement, and has but 23,000 miles despite its age (2003 model). It's been garaged so still looks spanking new.

My wife said we should get rid of it, but I asked her why. I take it out once a month to exercise it. The rest of the time, it sits in the garage, hooked up to a battery maintainer. Had to replace all 4 tires recently due to dry rot.
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Old 05-03-2016, 06:29 PM   #52
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Thanks for the great advice.

We had this revelation last night (actually, Lena thought of it):

Maybe we don't need two cars.

It's rare that we both need a car at the same time. I hardly ever gig anymore. The only time it would be a problem is in the case of an accident or a "I locked the keys in the car" event.
We dropped to 1 car for a while and it was no problem. Trying to get back to 1 car again (after buying a new used minivan as THE car for the next 7-8 years). But we live in the city so no big deal to call an Uber, walk a couple blocks to a car rental agency, walk, or hop on the city bus.

I didn't realize you had the Tacoma in addition to the echo.
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Old 05-07-2016, 03:57 PM   #53
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Since your needs for a second car are modest I presume that you do not put many miles on that second car... if so, why not just go out and replace the Echo with another econo-box... something used and cheap but not a lot of miles. Since you put on so few miles with it what it gets for mileage doesn't matter much.
Well, we put about 15K miles/year on our main car--it's a ways to town. It's just that we rarely need two cars at the same time.

For fun, we took one of these (BMW i3) for a 20 mile test drive:

[IMG][/IMG]

Really fun to drive. I liked it better than the Tesla (less huge). It was used (8K miles). They listed it at $29,000, and the range is only 66 miles.

The dealer said the range was 80, but when we drove it, it showed a charge level of 99% with an estimate of 66 miles to go.

So, that would be a no go. They've had it on the lot for five months. Even at $10,000 it would be too impractical.

There is something magical about silently accelerating with a lot of torque.
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Old 05-07-2016, 11:58 PM   #54
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Since your needs for a second car are modest I presume that you do not put many miles on that second car... if so, why not just go out and replace the Echo with another econo-box... something used and cheap but not a lot of miles. Since you put on so few miles with it what it gets for mileage doesn't matter much.
Could even go buy a F150 as the mileage does not matter if the second car is hardly used.
That's what I'm trying to convince DW to buy so I can borrow it
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Old 05-08-2016, 02:07 AM   #55
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A couple years ago I read an article on leasing the Volt. You could get a lease for $300 but GM was subsidizing the lease by $150 a month to promote the concept and the brand. So it would have cost $450. It proved very popular and what happened is that you had a glut of Volts hitting the market that were lease returns and it depressed the used market which is why used volts are so affordable. I've also read the same thing happened with the Nissan Leafs but without the subsidy. Just a lot of leases hitting the market at the same time. Currently I don't think the price reflects the value.
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Old 05-08-2016, 08:05 AM   #56
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For fun, we took one of these (BMW i3) for a 20 mile test drive:

Really fun to drive. I liked it better than the Tesla (less huge). It was used (8K miles). They listed it at $29,000, and the range is only 66 miles.

The dealer said the range was 80, but when we drove it, it showed a charge level of 99% with an estimate of 66 miles to go.

So, that would be a no go. They've had it on the lot for five months. Even at $10,000 it would be too impractical.

There is something magical about silently accelerating with a lot of torque.
I like the i3. Would love to test drive one during DW's car buying in the near future. I'd give it a look in four years when it's my turn, but 66-80 miles is a non-starter as you said. That's why I am avoiding electrics for now, as I expect the technology will get better and allow longer range in the near future. As another said: I'm not sure price reflects value at this point.
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Old 05-08-2016, 08:20 AM   #57
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I like the i3. Would love to test drive one during DW's car buying in the near future. I'd give it a look in four years when it's my turn, but 66-80 miles is a non-starter as you said. That's why I am avoiding electrics for now, as I expect the technology will get better and allow longer range in the near future. As another said: I'm not sure price reflects value at this point.


The new i3 model is supposed to be around 120 miles available this summer.

Don't test drive it - I did and had to have it ;-) I never had a BMW and really dislike the gas BMW's that they loan when the car is in the shop. The look is a strange but is surprisingly big and comfortable inside.

While I'd love to have more miles, in reality it hasn't been a limiter except 95% of our driving. We have an old car for longer drives or could just rent one.

Seeing the resale value is depressing but in reality we will keep this car a LONG time so less worried about than someone how will upgrade every 4 years or so.
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Old 05-08-2016, 08:37 AM   #58
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I won't try to talk you in/out of anything, and you're right the Prius gets higher mpg city than highway. BUT The EPA estimate, FWIW is 58/53 city/highway - and that's not far from my experience after 40,000 miles. I have a 2012 Prius and I average about 55 mpg summer and about 45 winter - I drive both city and highway miles, a little more highway overall. IIRC you're in a (much) warmer climate than I am, so you should easily average about 50 mpg highway with a Prius. I know of few if any ICE cars that will average 50 mpg, there is a significant difference IME.

DW wanted an EV, but between purchase price, range anxiety/long charge times (without expensive fast charge equipment), and total emissions (depending on your power plant fuels) that are much higher than many people realize - the technology isn't there yet for us. YMMV
Hybrids seem a way more practical way to go then electric.
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Old 05-08-2016, 10:27 AM   #59
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A couple years ago I read an article on leasing the Volt. You could get a lease for $300 but GM was subsidizing the lease by $150 a month to promote the concept and the brand. So it would have cost $450. It proved very popular and what happened is that you had a glut of Volts hitting the market that were lease returns and it depressed the used market which is why used volts are so affordable. I've also read the same thing happened with the Nissan Leafs but without the subsidy. Just a lot of leases hitting the market at the same time. Currently I don't think the price reflects the value.
Yeah I posted this above, 2-3 year old Volts are a crazy good deal now for a car that has a ton of fun tech in it. Lots of them in the sub-$15k range here for a car that even with tax credits sold for $30-35k new.
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Old 05-08-2016, 12:28 PM   #60
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From what I have read the battery pack for an electric vehicle will last 70,000 to 100,000 miles. The replacement cost for a battery pack can be $9,000 up to $15,000. If what I have read is accurate that does not bode well for their used car market.
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