Air-Powered Car Coming to U.S. in 2009 to 2010

[Brat]

I wasn't looking at this issue from a global warming POV.

It is all about oil, a good part of which is used in automobiles. We need to decrease our consumption of oil big time. IMHO it is a national defence issue.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Eh, I always look at the big pic. Doesnt help us to cut back on oil if we then have to raise our natural gas imports by a factor of 20, or if we have to sacrifice losing a few thousand lives a year to increasingly dangerous coal mining.

What we REALLY need is something the size of a really big picture window, maybe two, that can be slapped on any house to produce more electricity than the household can use, including charging the cars. All for about $3-4,000 installed.

Then you put some slightly oversized batteries in the cars to extend driving range, but use them for your overnight electricity storage with a limiter to keep them from being overtapped to the point where you wont be able to get where you're going the next day.

Might make the situation of two people with four cars pretty attractive

Or go the other way around and put efficient fuel cells in the cars and plug those into the house when you're home to provide power to the house.

But then WHERE will we get all that hydrogen?

 

[ERD50]

Incorrect. An electrical engine is much more efficient than a good old fashioned internal combustion engine. Se even if your electricity is coming from burning oil you are still being more efficient with that energy.

According to Tesla, their car is much more efficient from a wheel-to-well measurement. 2x the miles per unit energy used than a Prius.

Tesla Motors - well-to-wheel

But, this is a vehicle with expensive Lion batteries. Something affordable just won't do so great.

Remember, though the electric plant is more efficient than a small ICE, there is a long chain:

Generate E > transmit E (~8% loss is the national grid average) > convert to DC and charge batteries (~20% loss?) > discharge batteries (~ 10% loss?) > electric motor and controls (20% loss?).


Wiki says an ICE in a car ~ 20% eff. A combined cycle power plant can reach 60% eff. But 60 % X .92 X .8 X .9 X .8 = 32% eff.

Tesla doesn't show their calcs (at least on that page), and I made some ballpark assumptions, but still - electric cars don't appear to be all that much efficient than burning oil, and it would be worse with affiordable batteries.

Also, power plants don't have catalytic converters. They actually produce more pollution than cars for a given amount of energy. Which is pretty amazing, but cars were the focus of pollution regulations, so that is where development went.

-ERD50

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Hmm...and then what do you do with all those batteries when they've reached the end of their life span?

And what wastes and byproducts are generated during their manufacture?

 

[samclem]

What we REALLY need is something the size of a really big picture window, maybe two, that can be slapped on any house to produce more electricity than the household can use, including charging the cars. All for about $3-4,000 installed.

Then you put some slightly oversized batteries in the cars to extend driving range, but use them for your overnight electricity storage with a limiter to keep them from being overtapped to the point where you wont be able to get where you're going the next day.

I like the idea, but we'll probably have to scale things up a bit.

More back of envelope computations: Full solar irradiation at sea level, noon, no clouds is approx 1000 watts/sq meter. If we assume that we can get this for 6 hours/day, that's 6 kilowatt/hours per day per sq meter. Based on calculations in a recent thread, (http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f27/eestor-ultracapacitor-may-real-34484.html
) if you wanted this little commute-o-mobile to go just 120 miles using a steady 30 HP (no battery losses), you'd need to pump 45 kw/hours of electricity into it. That's 7.5 square meters of incident sunlight = 82 square feet. That's about the size of two very big picture windows. So far, so good.

But, we haven't powered the house yet. According to one source ( As TVs grow, so do electric bills | csmonitor.com,) the average US home uses 880 kw/h per month. If we assume we're really thrifty and use just 50% of this, that's 14.6 kwh/day. That's 26 more square feet of incident sunlight collector, or a total (with the collector for the car) of 108 sq feet. (that's over six 6' x 4' picture windows).

But we live where sometimes there's a cloud in the sky. and rain, too. Add 40% collector area for the real world solar irrradiation = 151 square feet of collector.

This has all been at 100% efficiency (sunlight to electricity conversion), which is consistent with the intent of your your "what we need" plea. If we wanted to power this car and this house using present-day PV panels (20% efficiency) we'd need a collector measuring 755 sq feet (about thirty-one 6' x 4' picture windows).

Then, we've got storage losses`. . . wait! Some fool wants to use a toaster! Oh, the humanity !!

 

[growing_older]

What happens to the air tank in an accident? Is there one big boom when it ruptures, or does it blow stuff all over?

 

[samclem]

Some refinemments: According to the graphic at the link below, most spots in the US get about 5 kwh per square meter per day (taking into account weather, low grazing angles at morning and afternoon, lack of sun at night, etc). To get the 60 kwh/day needed by the house and car would require:

12 square meters (130 square feet = over five 4' x 6' picture window size collectors) with 100% collector efficiency

60.4 sq meters (650 square feet = twenty-seven 4' x 6' picture window-size collectors) with today's 20% collector efficiency

Image:Us pv annual may2004.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[ERD50]

Hmm...and then what do you do with all those batteries when they've reached the end of their life span?

According to Tesla:

Tesla Motors - touch

Above and beyond RoHS, our lithium ion cells contain no heavy metals, nor any toxic materials. In fact, our cells and ESS, by law, could be disposed of by putting them in a landfill. However, we have no intention of landfilling our ESS.


There are some exciting potential uses for the ESS in its afterlife. While our ESS is designed to maximize performance and life in our roadster, at some unfortunate point, the ESS will come to the end of its useful life in the application

. However, it might be possible to use the ESS in other applications. For example, the ESS could be used as a power source for off-grid backup or load leveling. The battery requirements for such an application are not as demanding as a high performance vehicle battery. This being said, eventually the batteries will no longer hold a significant charge and will need to be disposed of.

and

The copper cobalt product is sold for recovery of metals such as cobalt, aluminum, nickel, and copper. The slurry is processed into a cobalt filter cake. This cake is then reused in appliance coatings.


Soda ash is added to resulting process solution and precipitates out as lithium carbonate; liquid is bled off after lithium salt recovery, and is sent off as non hazardous effluent for proper disposal.


As you can see, the recycling process is mainly a mechanical and chemical one. It does not involve any smelters; so emissions are kept to a minimum.


The result from this process is that we are able to recycle about 60% of the ESS materials and reuse a further 10% (by weight). We currently plan to landfill only the benign fluff, which comprises about 25% of the ESS, but we expect to nearly eliminate this in the future when our volumes get higher and we can justify the effort required to separate and reuse the plastic.


Keep in mind that we have only done a few trial runs with our modules. We’re hoping that we won’t need to recycle our modules for many years to come. However, we believe it is important, before we start shipping cars, to understand and plan for the eventual disposal of these vehicles.

And what wastes and byproducts are generated during their manufacture?

I'll leave that one for you to google, and compare to an ICE car, catalytic converter, etc...

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

Some refinements: According to the graphic below, most spots in the US get about 5 kwh per square meter per day (taking into account weather, night, etc). To get the 60 kwh/day needed by the house and car would require:

12 square meters (130 square feet = over five 4' x 6' picture windows) with 100% collector efficiency

60.4 sq meters (650 square feet) with today's 20% collector efficiency

I also did some back of the envelope calcs like that a while back. Came up in the same ballpark, about 10 x 50 feet of panels. A setup like that is not out of the question as far as space goes, it could fit on a rooftop. I'm afraid to price one out, though. It's kind of like buying an annuity - 'guaranteed income (electricity) for life!'. Cue the 800 pound gorilla.

-ERD50

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Eh, I have a bynch of lithium ion batteries that are pretty much worthless after 2-3 years. And those just ran my phone or laptop for a few hours here and there. Pretty sure a battery that runs a car at 80mph down the street isnt going to fare much better.

My marketing bullshit antenna is quivering...

Sam - We just some of those 2x-10x improvements in solar efficiency I keep hearing about that will be happening in "just a couple of years". And some really thick extension cords.

NIcads arent that bad unless you have a good look at Sudbury Ontario. I do suppose that shooting a bunch of Lithium into the water supply might make a lot of us a lot less concerned about a lot of things...

 

[packrat44]

So going back around to the original point, if everyone starts driving electric/compressed air/bean powered cars, we'd have to make a lot more electricity. So wheres that going to come from and how will it be produced?

Oh gosh. We do have a shitload of coal, dont we?

While I gather you were being facetious about having a shitload of coal; however, that is as a possibility if the US really wants to wean themselves from the foreign oil nipple. Germany was successful with the conversion of coal to petroleum in WWII when their supply of oil was severly reduced. We could also retort the kerogen from oil shale located in Wyoming. Gulf and Standard Oil had a project in the mid '70s during the oil emargo. Re-opening the valve to cheap foreign oil killed the project.

However, with Obama selecting Al Gore as VP, the environmental issue is more touchy than the US weaning themselves from foreign oil.

 

[chinaco]

I saw that design a while back. The company is MDI.

I am fairly sure the engine can run as a traditional internal combustion engine also... it is a hybrid. Instead of electricity, it uses compressed air.

You gotta admit... it is creative.

I think one problem with the air car is with developing the infrastructure. The company's concept is to have stations with powerful air compressors to fill the car quickly.



MDI Enterprises S.A.

I think it is a hybrid vehicle.

 

[Wags]

How about the GREASE CAR which Daryl Hannah drives and promotes as a source for alternate fuel?

Grassolean.com :: Home of the Biodiesel Station

I know that the use of HEMP, the air powered car and the grease car may not be the answers for large scale use but at least they are giving us some ideas on how to protect the envirnoment and cut back on the use of oil.

GOD BLESS US ALL

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

While I gather you were being facetious about having a shitload of coal

Nope. The figures I see show somewhere between a 100 and 250 year supply of coal. Only problem is that we already got most of the easy stuff out of the ground and the last 50/125 years of that supply (depending on whose numbers you believe) are far more dangerous to mine than the first. Might explain the plague of mining collapses and accidents we've had the last couple of years.

 

[Midpack]

How about the GREASE CAR which Daryl Hannah drives and promotes as a source for alternate fuel?

I suspect a lot of us would be "eco-chic" like Daryl Hannah, Leonardo di Capria, Ed Begley, Willie Nelson, Al Gore, etc. if we had that kind of money, I know I would. We have a Toyota hybrid and try to buy "green" as much as possible (sometimes the premium is just too much), but $98,000 cars like the Tesla, (intermittant) solar or wind power, or technologies where there is no infrastructure (Ms Hannah has the $ wherewithal to deal with those 'minor' issues) are simply out of reach for most of us. But I guess I applaud them for supporting the development (regardless of whatever else might motivate some of them)...

 

[HFWR]

Keep it greasy, so it'll go down easy..." Zappa

 

[Zathras]

Hmm. I thought it was pretty well proven that the average delivered unit of electricity minus production and distribution costs of both the electricity and the device thats intended to replace a gas motor...was below the efficiency and cost of a reasonably sized modern gas engine and gasoline production.

No, just the opposite has been proven, however let me get some hard numbers for you. The level of efficiency gain may be in question, but there is definately a gain with electric motors.

Cuz...if it wasnt...we'd all be using whatever was by now, right?

Ah if only the free market were truly free and start up costs and competition werre not an issue.

So going back around to the original point, if everyone starts driving electric/compressed air/bean powered cars, we'd have to make a lot more electricity. So wheres that going to come from and how will it be produced?

First, we don't have 150 million electric vehicles available right now. There will not be a sudden switch to everyone using EVs. Second, even if available, EVs (at this time) are not appropriate for all uses.
Mine are going to draw power at night and so there will be no/negligable increase in power generation as I am charging during the time of base load.

Oh gosh. We do have a shitload of coal, dont we?

Yes we do, which addresses the idea of getting off of foreign oil

 

[ERD50]

Eh, I have a bynch of lithium ion batteries that are pretty much worthless after 2-3 years. And those just ran my phone or laptop for a few hours here and there. Pretty sure a battery that runs a car at 80mph down the street isnt going to fare much better.

My marketing bullshit antenna is quivering...

That was my view also. It is hard to believe these things can last as long as they say, but....

They do provide a warranty, and look at the hybrids that have been on the market for what, four or five years? No big warranty problems on batteries that I am aware of.

Supposedly, with the temperature controls, and very careful monitoring of voltage levels, they achieve these long lives. I guess it's just not worth it to add that level of sophistication to a laptop battery. It would add cost to the laptop, and a replacement battery is $80 or so. Different story when you have a $50,000 battery pack in a Tesla.

Tesla Motors - think

There is a huge difference in cycle life between a 4.2V/cell charge (defined by the manufacturers as “fully charged”) and a 4.15V/cell charge. 4.15 volts represents a charge of about 95 percent. For this reduction of initial capacity (5 percent), the batteries last a whole lot longer. Unfortunately, further reduction of charge has a much smaller benefit on cycle life.

-ERD50

 

[chinaco]

Eh, I have a bynch of lithium ion batteries that are pretty much worthless after 2-3 years. ...
My marketing bullshit antenna is quivering...

My understanding is that the lithium would need to be imported. There are a few producing countries... China is one.

Hopefully we will seek a technology does not make us too dependent on nations that are not friendly to the US.

 

[Khan]

Nope. The figures I see show somewhere between a 100 and 250 year supply of coal. Only problem is that we already got most of the easy stuff out of the ground and the last 50/125 years of that supply (depending on whose numbers you believe) are far more dangerous to mine than the first. Might explain the plague of mining collapses and accidents we've had the last couple of years.

We also have mined much the cleaner burning stuff (anthracite). I recall reading that we are using up bituminous, and are now building facilities to burn lignite.

 

[Surfdaddy]

We have tons of coal.... but if you believe in global warming, coal is about the worst fuel, with a much larger CO2 emission per unit of energy than other fossil fuels. We can get off oil.... but we would really be messing up the CO2 problem. Until we figure out how to do carbon capture.

There are no easy answers. Most people don't understand the thermodynamics of the problem, or the math of exponential growth. Something has to give, and I suspect it will be in the next 10-20 years. I hope I'm wrong. But I see everybody blithely moving forward with incremental improvements while companies like Boeing project 8000 new airliners over the next 25 years, and I think - what's wrong with this picture?

 

[free4now]

In terms of well to wheels efficiency, battery electric vehicles are the only technology that can theoretically approach unity efficiency (approaching 100% of source power being delivered to the wheels). Air cars are horrible thermodynamically, and hydrogen is pretty bad too.

 

[Wags]

Do we need to go back to the time of using a horse and wagon?

How about the use of oxen to work our fields?

Hey, it was a great time in American history but I do beleive that America has the capacity when push comes to shove to find alternative energy sources to help wean us off from our huge dependence on oil. It could be a combination of wind, water, solar, coal, corn/wheat and hemp.

GOD BLESS US ALL

 

[ERD50]

Do we need to go back to the time of using a horse and wagon?

How about the use of oxen to work our fields?

Hey, it was a great time in American history ...

Whoa there, Nellie! Great time in American history No thanks:

The Environmental Literacy Council - The Horse & the Urban Environment

While the nineteenth century American city faced many forms of environmental pollution, none was as all encompassing as that produced by the horse. The most severe problem was that caused by horses defecating and urinating in the streets, but dead animals and noise pollution also produced serious annoyances and even health problems.

....

Manure piles also produced huge numbers of flies, in reality a much more serious vector for infectious diseases such as typhoid fever than odors.

....

Because of their size and numbers, the disposal of dead horses presented a special problem. In New York City, for instance, horse carcasses, as well as those of other animals, were sometimes dumped with garbage into the bays or the rivers, often floating there or washing up on the beaches.

...

In 1880, New York City removed 15,000 dead horses from its streets, and late as 1916 Chicago carted away 9,202 horse carcasses.

Writing in Appleton's Magazine in 1908, Harold Bolce argued that most of the modern city's sanitary and economic problems were caused by the horse. Bolce charged that each year 20,000 New Yorkers died from "maladies that fly in the dust, created mainly by horse manure."


...

crossing sweepers" (like those in London), appeared, to help ladies and gentlemen wade through the liquid manure. Citizens frequently complained about the "pulverized horse dung" which blew into their faces and houses and which covered the outside displays of merchants.

Oh yes, back to the 'good old days'. More horses, that's the answer!

 

[Wags]

Whoa there, Nellie! Great time in American history No thanks:

The Environmental Literacy Council - The Horse & the Urban Environment



Oh yes, back to the 'good old days'. More horses, that's the answer!

ERD50 thank you for setting me on the right road.

Living in West Texas in the middle of nowhere I know the problem that we can have with the waste of our farm animals. But for us poor country devils if we ever run out of oil or it cost to much to flll up our tractors, our farm equipment and our trucks we just might have to resort back to using the old horse and wagon, the mules and the oxen to bring up the crops.

Sometimes we remember the good and the bad times as the good old days.

GOD BLESS US ALL