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Old 03-29-2008, 05:01 PM   #21
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calmoki


I'm pretty sure that Scapoose/St Helens/Columbia County has a law much like what is happening in Willamina

Do you live there or in the area?

I grew up in McMinnville. We used to go to Willamina to drink & drive (in the 70's)

edit: just saw that you are in Independence.
Graduated from Sheridan High school in between McMinnville and Willamina back in '67.
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Old 03-29-2008, 06:09 PM   #22
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Now I'll grant you, i could probably get an illegal alien at least 25% of the time based on the looks of a car load of people driving by and that an experienced officer could probably do much better.
lol -- that reminds me of a road trip I took with Papa (4th generation Texan of German descent) and Mama (Irish citizen / green card holder).

Down near the Texas / Mexico border we were stopped by a border patrol agent who told us he was just doing vehicle checks and asked breezily: "you're all citizens, right?"

"Oh yes," we said -- since Mom had been here for over 40 years we didn't even think about it, and he didn't check. A couple of miles down the road we realized we'd got a pass because we were caucasian.

So, Calmoki, it appears that cops can already stop you at will, at least in the border states (and here in Ca. with sobriety checkpoints). What's more, experienced officers seem as prone to assumptions as the rest of us and could end up stopping a lot of brown folks / letting a lot of white folks slide by... or, in the alternative, they set up checkpoints and stop EVERYONE so as not to be accused of bias.

Either way, start your trip extra-early if you want to arrive on time!
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Old 03-29-2008, 06:42 PM   #23
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Sure Walt, theres good guys and bad guys. I think the point I was making is that a lot of people presume theres a set of rules that the majority of available law enforcement folks go by that assures that a law abiding citizen can go about their business free of interference by the police. Somewhere between the "9/11 screamers" and the hiring ramp ups that have called for going outside of former acceptance limits to meet headcount, this is really not the case anymore.

So heads up folks. You can indeed have your comeuppance the next day at a cost, but you had best perform any trained monkey tricks that are requested of you if accosted.

BTW, the bottom of the story in my case is that the county used to reimburse the local town jails $40 a night for putting people up and not bringing them to the county lockup. So the unofficial rule was to check the headcount a little before midnight and if it wasnt at full capacity, to go round up some likely suspects. Seems after that was reported to the local newspaper the practice was curtailed.

There were, by the way, a hell of a lot of apparently very deep LBYM hispanic guys in the jail with me. I didnt check them for green cards. I'm betting the police didnt ask them if they wanted to speak to the consulate from their countries consulate at the time of arrest either...

So thats what became of an offsetting fee setup for managing arrested persons, many of which may have been actual citizens with real rights.

Imagine how it all works out when its financed to the tune of $14-15M for a town, rather than $40 per head per night. Better make sure you have your birth certificate and passport with you, else you might be deported to Sweden despite your protests that you're not from there.

You know how the system works Walt...nobody wants to be the supervisor that reports to the chief that the number of tickets written went down in the last month, that the number of arrests and convictions dropped, that the headcount in the jail was low, or that a weak number of illegals were rounded up. The answer is likely the same: Surely there must have been a few people breaking the law we didnt work hard enough to catch, or at least a mouthy white guy we could have picked up?
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Old 03-30-2008, 07:17 AM   #24
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Quite a bit of rhetoric and strong feelings on all sides of the Illegal Immigrant situation.

The differences of opinion are often backed up with some facts and valid points of view. The problems seems to be finding a balanced and reasonable solution.

I am not for making illegal immigrants citizens because of principle (they are here illegally). But issuing green cards or some sort of seasonal work permit for work probably makes sense.

CFB has a point. Once they are legal, unless the government passes some special rules for certain types of immigrant temporary labor, wages will go up and affect prices.

So perhaps this new temporary worker program should not have a minimum wage... (like restaurant workers). However, using tax payers money to subsidize their health care, education, etc. is not a good idea either. Perhaps these business people who employ them should be responsible for their coverage or the Mexican government should pay for those services if they are needed in the US... maybe the business/farmer and the Mexican government can share the cost.

If the burden just winds up on the US tax payer.... that does not seem fair.
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Old 03-30-2008, 10:15 AM   #25
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The Oregon wrinkle is that the police could stop someone just to check papers - without even a hint of cause like a rolling stop. Now I'll grant you, i could probably get an illeagal alien at least 25% of the time based on the looks of a car load of people driving by and that an experienced officer could probably do much better. But being asked to produce papers based on my looks would rankle - kinda un-American feeling. kinda police-state like.
Doubt they would need to stop many cars, all they need to do is go to Home Depot parking lot, certains corners in the industrial areas, and most of your garden shop sidewalks, to name a few places...that would keep them busy for quite some time..

The sad thing is if they just really secured our borders and did the things that are already on the law books like enforcing the laws...... the problem wouldn't be quite as bad. Of course if your making lots money off these illegals you have a lot of clout, you also don't care about the problems it causes every one else.

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Old 03-30-2008, 10:35 AM   #26
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My strong feelings on the matter are simple.

We're all fine with buying cheap agricultural products, getting a deal on home renovations or garden work, or having a nice cheap nanny. We really like cheap new construction homes. Businesses like it, customers like it, and the government turns a blind eye because a pool of cheap labor helps push the economy along by limiting wage inflation in high volume, low cost products and services.

We used to employ our children and young teens to do a lot of this labor, and there were also a lot of manual laborers with pride who wanted to provide for their families. Now the pride seems to have evaporated and of course we have child labor laws to prohibit putting kids to work.

So who the heck is going to do all these jobs that just wouldnt get done or be economical to purchase if the price rises above a level well below a living wage?

Vacuum....something to fill it with!

Where I have problems is when someone decides to rail against the brown people for overloading our education or health care systems or claim they bring health risks or crime into the country. Mostly because there arent any facts to indicate that any of that is actually true, excepting some specific border areas which for some reason continue to do what they're doing in the face of this awful menace.

I mean, its fine for Consuelo to watch our kids for $4 an hour while her husband fixes our sprinklers for $20, but how about they just keep their kids at home instead of at school and if anyone gets sick, hike back to mexico to see a doctor, ok?

And forget about the dream of becoming a real citizen, earning a real wage and living above boards. I mean, this country wasnt founded on the basis of entrepreneurial peoples backs who wanted to make a dangerous trip, fight the authorities and earn a better life, right? I read this absolutely ridiculous malarkey about requiring them to pay a huge fine, be required to learn a new language, dance the mambo with a live tuna on their heads, and be on a waiting list for 5 years and then we'll think about it.

You know, all the same stuff we required of their european and asian predecessors!

Our problems with education are primarily related to parents who fail to engage with their children on learning, respect and responsibility. Our problems with health care are primarily with bureaucracy, fat insurance companies, fat pharmaceutical companies, and fat people.

But its a shitload easier to wind up your patriotism until it covers up your narrow minded prejudice than to address and resolve the actual problems.

So certainly theres a burden on the US taxpayer. Theres also a bunch of benefits.

But a lot of people think they're dirty little people that arent as good as we are. We're fine with sucking the life out of them but we dont want to give anything back. We're the railroad barons of the 21st century.
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Old 03-30-2008, 01:26 PM   #27
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My strong feelings on the matter are simple.

We're all fine with buying cheap agricultural products, getting a deal on home renovations or garden work, or having a nice cheap nanny. We really like cheap new construction homes. Businesses like it, customers like it,....

So certainly theres a burden on the US taxpayer. Theres also a bunch of benefits.
Well, in my view, it is best when products/services reflect their true costs.

If the products/services are priced cheap, but we pay the costs through other taxes, it distorts the free market forces.

-ERD50
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Old 03-30-2008, 02:09 PM   #28
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Awesome, CFB.
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Old 03-30-2008, 03:32 PM   #29
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You know how the system works Walt...nobody wants to be the supervisor that reports to the chief that the number of tickets written went down in the last month, that the number of arrests and convictions dropped, that the headcount in the jail was low, or that a weak number of illegals were rounded up. The answer is likely the same: Surely there must have been a few people breaking the law we didnt work hard enough to catch, or at least a mouthy white guy we could have picked up?
I guess it depends on the jurisdiction and their priorities, ethics and professionalism. I'd have been fired for doing stuff like that. But the PD funding wasn't dependent on anything the PD did. Linking PD funding to PD activity is a recipe for ethical disasters, as in some small towns all or part of traffic ticket fines go to the town's treasury. So what is the mayor going to tell the officers to focus on? In MD that was forbidden for exactly that reason - all traffic fines went to the state general fund, and nobody I worked with cared about the state general fund.

Talking with another guy from a small town PD about why he left - pretty much the BS you describe and worse - I was astonished at the environment he worked in, he was equally astonished at mine. I cannot say that where I worked was perfect, it wasn't. There are people involved and people will never be perfect. But I can say that we tried, and I am proud to have worn that uniform.
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