An OLd Liberal " Gets It"

If we view tax deductability as a government subsidy, then we should properly classify a lot of other things as government subsidized (home ownership, charitable giving, organized religion, etc).

One attractive aspect of a national retail sales tax (NRST, aka the "Fair Tax") is that it reduces government's role in encouraging/discouraging various behaviors.


How about this: We have a NRST just like proposed in the present legislation:
- Abolish the income tax and the SS tax (the most regressive tax of all)
- Tax all purchases of services and new products at 23%. No exemptions/exceptions.
- A prebate to all families equal to the 23% of the poverty level income for that family size (e.g The HHS poverty level for a family of four is $20,000 per year. Every family of four gets a prebate of 6072 per year ($506 per month)) without need to file a return, etc.

- Now, the health care portion:
-- Health care services and health insurance, whether purchased by the employer or the employee, would be subject to the same 23% tax. Employers would get no deduction, so there's no advantage to providing health care through employers (anticipated effect: Employees receive a boost in salaries equal to the employer's previous cost of providing this coverage.

-- With employer sponsored health care out of the mix and everyone conscious of the actual cost of the stuff, it would open the way for more efficient means of providing coverage.

e.g. 1) Private individual purchase of insurance, with government susidized care of the indigent: Government could help insure an efficient market by mandating standardized plans (say 5-10 standard packages) and allowing consumers to compare prices and buy what they want. Care of the indigent is as it is today, or perhaps they are assigned to "Package 3"coverage, with premiums paid by the taxpayer. This achieves universal care, keeps freedom of choice for those who can afford it. Cons: Paperwork and inefficiencies caused by private insurance layer.

or

2) A universal taxpayer-funded universal "baseline" with purchased add-on coverage. The baseline coverage might be paid from a reduction in the prebate (appropriate, since rich or poor get the same baseline coverage) or an increase in the sales tax rate above 23%. It would be best to make the cost of this coverage explicit, so everyone realizes it isn't "free."

Results:
- Universal care (of at least baseline coverage)
- Health care costs taken off employers, making them more competitive in the global economy
- NRST encourages savings, discourages consumption
- Costs for medical care made more explicit
- Removes embedded taxation costs from the cost of producing US goods. Another boost for US competitveness in the world economy.

The only thing that will enable US workers to keep/improve their standard of living in a globally competitive economy is to continually increase productivity. Yes, this also helps businesses (and those who own stock).
 
eridanus said:
That's the lead article, yes.

"America's health system is a monster. It is by far the world's most expensive: the United States spent $1.9 trillion on health in 2004, or 16% of GDP, almost twice as much as the OECD average (see charts 1 and 2). Health care in America is not nearly as rooted in the private sector as people assume (one way or another, more than half the bill ends up being paid by the state)."

(In the next paragraph, it explains how this came about - government regulation of wage controls forced employers to use health care as an incentive. This was explained by someone else on this board.)

Of course, America does seem to be supporting the world's R&D.

"Set alongside other rich countries, which typically offer all their citizens free (or very cheap) health care financed through taxes, America's system has some clear strengths. Consumers get plenty of choice, and innovation is impressive."

Perhaps one reason our health care is so expensive is because the US, through R&D, is supporting the world with new drugs and treatments? Well, that and insurance companies taking a huge slice.

Okay – we’ve reached the frontier of the end of my meager supply of at-hand economics knowledge. Which means I have to study a bit before I can answer. But, that is an interesting article and I found some similar ones that I’ve printed out and am going to take with me to read. I’ll comment later.

My post and original point were directed toward the OP’s use of the phrase “employer subsidized” healthcare. And, in spite of what I’m seeing in the Economist article, I think that my argument that it is not “employer” subsidized still stands. We weren’t discussing the bigger picture that stood outside of the employer-employee relationship and what the employee’s perceived satisfaction with insurance and healthcare was. Even if the employer is getting at tax break, the costs paid for insurance comes out of the bottom line and is subtotaled under “labor cost – fringe benefits”.

Of course, working for a municipal government I don’t think my employer is claiming any deductions because they’re not paying taxes in the first place.
 
Leonidas, at my workplace not all employees take the health insurance benefit. This is usually because the employee is covered by a spouse's plan. We don't pay that employee more because they don't take health insurance. (In fact, because we are a relatively small group I never liked it when someone would opt out of our plan, I wanted enough people in our plan to make us worth bidding on by the insurance companies). We also provide memberships to the YMCA. Not everyone cares and not everyone takes the membership. No one gets money in lieu of the membership.

FWIIW.
 
And i'll bet everyone thinks thats fair.

If I was an employee, and my employer stopped my health benefits, you'd best believe I'd expect that they take the money that they had been paying towards it and add that to my paycheck. Or I'd find another employer.

samclem said:
it reduces government's role in encouraging/discouraging various behaviors.

Except for buying a lot of stuff... ;)
 
Its a foregone conclusion that the govt will implement a national sales tax the day before I start withdrawing from my Roth...
 
Martha said:
Leonidas,  at my workplace not all employees take the health insurance benefit.  This is usually because the employee is covered by a spouse's plan.  We don't pay that employee more because they don't take health insurance.  (In fact, because we are a relatively small group I never liked it when someone would opt out of our plan, I wanted enough people in our plan to make us worth bidding on by the insurance companies). We also provide memberships to the YMCA.  Not everyone cares and not everyone takes the membership.  No one gets money in lieu of the membership.

FWIIW.

I'm in a similar situation. Neither my wife's company nor my city will increase either of our pays to even partially compensate us for not taking the insurance. So I have two policies covering me and the wife and my kid have hers covering them. That is a pain remembering the co-pays for each policy for what items.

samclem--Tht wold also put pay in the subsidy classifaction. WOO-HOO the wife is still a gov't employee.
 
saluki9 said:
bpp said:
Oh for crying out loud, some countries have national healthcare that works just fine.

Name them.

Japan is one. Not perfect of course, but given that the country has the highest life expectancy on the planet, the medical system is apparently not doing too much damage.

The point is that one doesn't have to merely imagine what it would be like,with all sorts of extreme suppositions; one could actually look around at some other developed countries and see what they have. I only ever hear about Canada and the UK in these discussions. Both fine countries of which I have happy memories, but there are other countries out there as well. Maybe ladelfina can tell us what Italy is like, for example? Maybe reb can say something about Germany? Somebody (KenM?) know about Singapore? Etc.
 
Ooops, probably a Freudian slip (or too much staring at a film loop of a gyrating young thang). SFW -->> SWR
 
saluki9 said:
I will be the first to admit that there are plenty of republicans who aren't conservatives by any means and are spending like drunken sailors. That being said, I think a lot of it has to do with payback (allocating pork) for all the times many of these districts got screwed while the democrats were running the show.

Don't you just love Republican logic? :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

Even when the Republicans run the country into financial ruin with profligate spending, IT'S THE DEMOCRATS' FAULT!!!

and not even the decency to put a smiley face after it :confused: :confused:

Let's see--since 1968 we've had--26 years of Republican presidency and
12 years of Democrats

Thank God for 8 of those 12 years--or we'd be in way worse fiscal shape than we are.
 
bosco said:
Thank God for 8 of those 12 years--or we'd be in way worse fiscal shape than we are.

I think I just heard Justin say "But he lied... Under oath"  :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
 
Thank God for 8 of those 12 years--or we'd be in way worse fiscal shape than we are.

If you're leaving out Jimmy Carter, those were the most important 4 years economically of all!

Carter started fighting inflation with his Federal reserve appointees. Most Repubs complain that we had 20% prime rate etc. etc. But this was the bad medicine that we needed to take. No way could the inflation of the 70s be turned around in Carter's watch of 4 years.
 
Cut-Throat said:
Carter started fighting inflation with his Federal reserve appointees. Most Repubs complain that we had 20% prime rate etc. etc. But this was the bad medicine that we needed to take. No way could the inflation of the 70s be turned around in Carter's watch of 4 years.

I will admit that is when my parents started building a nice portfolio. They made 15-18% returns on their cd's. Wouldn't have what they have today if wasn't for that.  :-\
 
bpp said:
Name them.

Maybe ladelfina can tell us what Italy is like, for example? Maybe reb can say something about Germany? Somebody (KenM?) know about Singapore? Etc.

I am not intimately familiar with any other country's health system but I have an anecdote about Amsterdam that may be of interest. DW and I took my teenage daughter and her girlfriend to Europe a few years back. The girlfriend got sick in Amsterdam - stomack pains. I took her to a doctor recommended by the hotel. His schedule was tight so he told us to come in at the end of his business day. He spent nearly an hour with her and charged us $25 US. He could not identify the cause and recommended that we go to an emergency room. He drove us over since it was on his way home.

At the hospital, the girlfriend was checked by several doctors who ultimately decided to check her in for overnight observation and possible exploratory surgery. I went over to the admissions desk to fill out the paperwork and automatically pulled out a credit card. They looked at me like I had two heads. No need for a credit card, no need for insurance cards. Just name, address, and next of kin :)

They were very worried about the type and location of the pain and ultimately did an exploratory surgery. One thing they were concerned about was that the young lady might have an ectopic pregnancy. My daughter (who was in the room during the interviews) says that when the girlfriend told them she was a virgin several eyes rolled - she is a cute blond).

I was very surprised at their lack of concern about consulting the girl's parents (she was 16). If I hadn't talked to her parents I think the surgeons would have wheeled her into surgery without even informing them. I am a bit conflicted about that practice but, all in all, I was very impressed at the quality of the service and the care the staff evidenced. On the quality side, of course, I have no expertise - but then neither do most of us have expertise on the quality of care we get here.
 
snowbird said:
I think I just heard Justin say "But he lied... Under oath" :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

I officially have no comment on this issue. But he was under OATH!!!!!!1
 
And I promised not to get into anymore discussions like this, also, but I remember the oath thing too. :D

setab
 
Cut-Throat said:
If you're leaving out Jimmy Carter, those were the most important 4 years economically of all!

Carter started fighting inflation with his Federal reserve appointees. Most Repubs complain that we had 20% prime rate etc. etc. But this was the bad medicine that we needed to take. No way could the inflation of the 70s be turned around in Carter's watch of 4 years.

Ok, this thread has officially jumped the shark. We have just had somebody complement Jimmy Carter's economic policy.

Have your been wearing your cardigan lately?
 
One thing you can say about ol' Jimmy is that he told us there was an energy crisis, about thirty years ago. But did we listen...
 
Ha Hah Ha

There ain't no stinking energy crisis - just got a missive in the mail from a guy promising to make me rich on oil shale stocks - seems we(the US) have more oil than the Middle East - right here.

Wonder if he has relatives in Nigeria:confused::confused:??

heh heh heh heh heh heh heh
 
unclemick2 said:
Ha Hah Ha

There ain't no stinking energy crisis - just got a missive in the mail from a guy promising to make me rich on oil shale stocks - seems we(the US) have more oil than the Middle East - right here.

Wonder if he has relatives in Nigeria:confused::confused:??

heh heh heh heh heh heh heh

I believe that Alberta does have more oil in the 'mud' than the entire Middle East. It now seems profitable to go after it. I saw a documentary on it.

We'll see how this develops.
 
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