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Old 12-28-2007, 09:47 AM   #1
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And you thought you'd seen flame wars before...

So I was interested in trying out some of the latest and greatest linux offerings since its been a couple of years.

Just email, browsing, photos, openoffice...nothing wild or crazy. Laptop with 2gb ram, 160gb hard drive and a 2ghz core due cpu, 945 chipset and integrated graphics, 3945 wireless network.

I'm thinking ubuntu. I dont want to have to break out my white socks and birkenstocks to sort out install/config options or do my own kernel compiles. Last time I played with the stuff it was slackware, debian and about an hour of fiddling with red hat. I'd like it to go a little easier this time.

What I'm not settled on is KDE or Gnome. Last time I checked, Gnome was more stable and simple, but KDE was a lot prettier and had more power...but it required more work to set some things up and was glitchy on occasion.

So whats the verdict among current users? Is the ubuntu call a good one? kubuntu with kde or ubuntu with gnome?
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Old 12-28-2007, 09:49 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny View Post
So I was interested in trying out some of the latest and greatest linux offerings since its been a couple of years.

Just email, browsing, photos, openoffice...nothing wild or crazy. Laptop with 2gb ram, 160gb hard drive and a 2ghz core due cpu, 945 chipset and integrated graphics, 3945 wireless network.

I'm thinking ubuntu. I dont want to have to break out my white socks and birkenstocks to sort out install/config options or do my own kernel compiles. Last time I played with the stuff it was slackware, debian and about an hour of fiddling with red hat. I'd like it to go a little easier this time.

What I'm not settled on is KDE or Gnome. Last time I checked, Gnome was more stable and simple, but KDE was a lot prettier and had more power...but it required more work to set some things up and was glitchy on occasion.

So whats the verdict among current users? Is the ubuntu call a good one? kubuntu with kde or ubuntu with gnome?

Reading this post is like reading Russian. I don't speak Russian!
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Old 12-28-2007, 09:51 AM   #3
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Give this a shot, super easy...

gOS - Discover a good OS.
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Old 12-28-2007, 09:57 AM   #4
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Uncertain to me, CFB. I have KDE on my PC-BSD install--a very easy install on an old desktop machine--and it seems OK. Since you have a laptop, I would be more concerned about wireless support.

Since it is all free, try them all. Pls report back. I would like to hear your experiences.
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Old 12-28-2007, 10:21 AM   #5
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Give this a shot, super easy...

gOS - Discover a good OS.
Oh sure, a thin client implementation with a mac os like environment. I'd have to take a shower after every time I used the computer.

But why not? Enlightenment is a 3rd option to KDE and Gnome. Fire away!!

I liked what I saw from Mandriva, which seemed simpler and more polished than ubuntu, but I liked how easy ubuntu made it to add extras like java and flash, and ubuntu comes with all the apps I want in the default install. opensuse has a lot of stuff going for it, but its way overkill for what I want.

Using the laptop is definitely a concern because thats where I ran into a wall with debian and slackware. I was using a 3-4 year old thinkpad then and I couldnt find drivers for half the stuff in the notebook including the cisco wireless card. Thats where I threw in the towel and went back to windows 2000.

But this machine isnt exactly ultra current. The 945 chipsets been out for a long time and I'm pretty sure I saw a driver for linux for the 3945 wireless on the intel site. Plus the newer distros have a lot more driver support on them than the old days of scrounging around oddball web sites for them.

Ed - I hadnt considered PC-BSD and hadnt heard a lot about it. What I liked about ubuntu is the extensive support options and community and the frequent releases adding features and fixing bugs. Whats the scoop?

By the way, I started this thread right after responding to a "New England Patriots Suck!" thread on another board. So I'm ornery.
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Old 12-28-2007, 11:14 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny View Post
So whats the verdict among current users? Is the ubuntu call a good one? kubuntu with kde or ubuntu with gnome?
Ubuntu gets good reviews by others, although I haven't tried it. I have no opinion on kde vs gnome. I consider them about the same (6 of one, half a dozen of the other).

Most of my computing is a work (primarily Redhat for Linux, although I use Solaris). When I ER, I'll need to reconfigure my home setup. My primary concern is how to go between Linux and Windows. Likely, I'll have Linux as the host OS, with Windows running under VMware. I'll have dual boot capability so I can boot to Windows if it becomes necessary. Significant disk space (at least 1-2 TB) is important to me. My experience has been that large disk requirements can be problematic under different versions of Linux.
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Old 12-28-2007, 11:47 AM   #7
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cfb,

As it happens, I found these links yesterday:
A comparison of PC-BSD and Kubuntu:
Kubuntu v.s. PC-BSD

A review by a fan of Ubuntu and Xbuntu:
PC-BSD revisited

Other reviews:
PC-BSD revisited
ONLamp.com -- Using PC-BSD

To start with, I bought an old Compaq desktop and a new hard drive to make a clean install. Simpler that way.

Could not get FreeBSD to install, so tried PC-BSD, which is FreeBSD made easy to install. PC-BSD installed quickly and had drivers for my hardware. I had to add a network card after installation and am still learning how to get it running. (I am doing all this for self-education anyway.) I have read that PC-BSD can recognize some wireless hardware better than other BSDs, but I am not going to use wireless. PC-BSD has also added a simple applications installation trick called PBIs. Just double-click on a .pbi file and it installs.

I have heard that IBM/Lenovo laptops were designed with Linux installation in mind, but I can't figure out what this means. Perhaps they used chip sets that were already supported or released driver info to Linux distributors? However, I am not going to try to put PC-BSD on my Lenovo (love it, by the way; very sturdy, very reliable).

Support and community are very important. I am struggling with that (but that is the path of the Unix guru ). Frequent updating bothers me, though. It sounds like Microsoft all over again. BSD variants focus on stability. BSD Unix has been out a long, long time and frequent updates to the kernal should not be necessary.

I would be very interested in your comments.

Cheers,

Ed
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Old 12-28-2007, 12:22 PM   #8
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I run Ubuntu on a couple of boxes. I just went for the default Gnome and it seems fine to me. The impression I got was that I would need to do more diddling around with Kbuntu - I took the easy route. Caution - take my opinion for the little it is worth. I don't interact with these machines that often. They are headless boxes in the basement used mainly as Web and file and print servers and accessed by VNC

I previously had Fedora and Redhat. I like Ubuntu better for ease of maintenance, although I did think KDE was a nice GUI when I had it on one of my previous boxes. Also, I was able to download and burn Ubuntu onto a single CD. Fedora was up to about 5 CDs.
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Old 12-28-2007, 12:51 PM   #9
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Bunny,

Have you considered Fedora Core? It's the latest incarnation of Red Hat and I find that it's pretty good. Very stable, doesn't require kernel compiles and has a good support base. I use FC7, but FC8 is already out.

As far as KDE/Gnome, I like the look of KDE better.
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Old 12-28-2007, 12:55 PM   #10
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We transitioned SO's parent from a Windows machine to Ubuntu a couple years ago and it seems to be working out fine. I haven't used Ubuntu as much as Fedora and Redhat, but it seems pretty user friendly and I haven't found a reason to stray from the default Gnome setup.
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Old 12-28-2007, 04:07 PM   #11
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Ed - the author convinced me that if I was going to do ubuntu, to go with the standard gnome version. The ubuntu website made it sound like the kde version wasnt anything different or a really wide fork of the standard kit...but the author of that article seems to have discovered that its quite different and not well documented. Not what I need given the 50/50 nature of the decision (for me).

I think if my BSD experience was a little more current than having worked on Ultrix V1.0 back in the early 1980's and some Solaris experiences in the late 80's, the PC-BSD flavor would be appealing. Seems it has a whole lot more of the system administration and management tools, applications and so forth than the small-computer-ish linux distros. Which is what you'd expect from a package brought down from major league pieces of iron.

I'll probably put ubuntu/gnome on the machine on a separate partition and play with it for a while. See if it makes me want to hold my nose when I boot into Vista and if I miss anything from the microsoft camp. I havent dug into whats involved with burning data dvd's on ubuntu or if my crappy webcam will work with it...but since I've never used the webcam except to amuse Gabe and only burn data dvd's once in a blue moon...no big deal on either of those.

Donheff...VNC! I havent used that in a long time. I used to have a little cube server with no screen/keyboard stuck in a corner bookshelf down in the living room and used VNC with it pretty darn regularly. Nice little product!

Wanderalot...I had heard that Fedora often had quirky little problems and was the testbed for a lot of the things redhat was thinking of eventually putting into their core product. All of that sort of turned me off of it, even if its mostly hoo-hah. I wasnt hearing any offsetting positives to some of the icky stories. My level of interest in delving into the OS is limited at this point. Some poking around will happen but if it throws a rod, I dont want to get involved with having to figure out and fix major problems. When windows does something bad, I generally know whats going on.

Figner...you put an SO's parent onto linux? Brave, brave soul...
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Old 12-28-2007, 04:52 PM   #12
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I run Ubuntu/Gnome both at home and at work. I leave it as vanilla as possible 'cuz I look terrible in Birkenstocks. Heck, I don't even customize my .emacs file these days. The total-market approach to computing: passive, low-cost, let the market decide what you need.

Anyway, it works fine for my purposes.
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Old 12-28-2007, 06:49 PM   #13
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Well I took a small leap. Not that bad.

I put ubuntu/gnome on a separate partition. Other than a small fiasco with it not liking the existing nfts partition and wanting me to delete it and make a new swap partition and /ext3 partition in its place, it installed with no problems. First glance it recognized all the hardware except (as expected) the webcam. Even the 3945 wireless network was supported out of the box, except it slapped my wrist about using a restricted driver that is NOT open source (naughty, naughty).

I figured the grub boot manager would hose my vista install, but I've now booted to both the original vista install and the ubuntu install.

So all is good, and things DO work great when you take a few hours to take a full backup first...
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Old 12-28-2007, 08:25 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny View Post
I think if my BSD experience was a little more current than having worked on Ultrix V1.0 back in the early 1980's and some Solaris experiences in the late 80's, the PC-BSD flavor would be appealing. Seems it has a whole lot more of the system administration and management tools, applications and so forth than the small-computer-ish linux distros.

Wanderalot...I had heard that Fedora often had quirky little problems and was the testbed for a lot of the things redhat was thinking of eventually putting into their core product. All of that sort of turned me off of it, even if its mostly hoo-hah. I wasnt hearing any offsetting positives to some of the icky stories.
Actually, Fedora Core is pretty darn good. And, if you load the whole shebang (a lot of CDs) it has all of those management tools you mentioned. I used Redhat and then Fedora for quite a while when I still used to fool around with network tools and security stuff like IPChains firewalls, Snort intrusion detection, Nessus vulnerability assessment, etc. I never had a problem with Fedora. I switched to Ubuntu when I lost interest in playing with the tools and figured a less complete distro would meet my needs.
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Just a little bit more on PC-BSD/FreeBSD...
Old 12-28-2007, 08:48 PM   #15
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Just a little bit more on PC-BSD/FreeBSD...

...in case anyone wants to look closer at *BSD, O'Reilly supports a web site that has about 120 articles by a Dru Lavigne on *BSD and Unix, etc. I have been looking for such a collection of hints and tutorials for a while! Since web sites sometimes disappear, I saved the text--ALL of it--this way:
  1. From the list, opened an article.
  2. clicked on 'Print". All this does is remove the advertisements.
  3. Highlighted all text.
  4. Control-C
  5. in Word, Control-V pasted all text (including hyperlinks to other articles, sources, etc.).
  6. All but one of side-bar references repeated between articles was removed.
  7. 'Save-as' saves it under the article title. Beware: non-letter characters won't copy into the file name, but some can be typed in and you can save using that name. I use only the hyphen.
http://www.onlamp.com/pub/ct/15

As usual, any comments or experience are welcome. I am trying to learn this animal.

Cheers!

BTW, thanks, cfb.
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Old 12-28-2007, 09:14 PM   #16
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No charge!

I'm still running on it. So far except for having to snoop around and turn some stuff on with regards to automatic updates of all the goodies, for someone thats going to use firefox/thunderbird and openoffice, I'd recommend this highly. Installing on a clean system would have avoided some of the fiddling I had to do with partitions and boot managers, and the installation would have gone as easily as a basic windows xp install. No trouble with the hardware or obscure BS like I had with some older linux distros a few years ago. A lot of stuff is in different places on the screen and of course the system administration is a bit different, but if I had an older box and wanted to get something going on it, I'd use this and not waste $80 on an XP license.

I'll keep reporting in as I fiddle. I havent gone far outside of the basic apps yet, so no reports on dvd burning, media handling, movie editing, photo management and all that sort of stuff.
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Old 12-29-2007, 01:52 AM   #17
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Ubuntu is a good choice. I have been using Fedora since version 3, and noticed significant improvements each release, from better support of devices/drivers, to more seamless implementations of installation and running. Currently like DonHeff, I am primarily using Core 7, and acknowledge that 8 is out. You can download the DVD version, and burn that, which puts it all on one media. Other then one installation anomaly where, selecting the option to make a custom configuration immediately, rather then allowing it to run through it's steps, and then doing the custom config at the end of the installation process, causes it to crash, the rest seems to work extremely well. YRMV.
I especially like Fedora because of the very large support base, and user group help available. I believe your concern about Red Hat, might have been true a few years ago, but I believe that has changed with the release of the Core versions, which has been a couple of years now. Whichever way you decide to go, I'm sure you will find a drastically different experience then your previous ones. You might even decide to try both. I would stay away from SCO though, as that has different structures and file placements then Fedora or Ubuntu, and can get confusing.
Good Luck
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Old 12-29-2007, 09:40 AM   #18
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I use KDE (I have Slackware) and have had no issues with it.

If you're into eye candy, you might want to check out Compiz Fusion: Compiz Fusion » Welcome

Compiz Fusion Demo:
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Old 12-29-2007, 10:22 AM   #19
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Vicenzo - WOW - you know I've been away from the hard-core computing stuff for years and remember when graphics was the BYU application (used it in undergrad - was considered state of the art). That video was phenomenal. Now I know if some MD sees it, they'll want me to 'make it happen.' Imagine being able to do that with all kinds of medial images and information......WOW.
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Old 12-29-2007, 03:09 PM   #20
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Okay, another days worth of fiddling.

Some stuff seems to be done differently than windows just for the sake of being different. Thats not a plus to me. Putting stuff like the clock and the gnome equivalent of the 'start' button up top instead of on the bottom...<shift><control><V> to paste instead of <control><V>. That sort of thing. The "backspace" key doesnt do a 'back up one page' in firefox for linux.

There is an "overly polite" bend to everything and not necessarily in a good way for the average joe user. Some examples are that anything not open source is excluded or must be put in manually, a lot of stuff that most people would like arent put in automatically because (I guess) some people dont want it, so its more acceptable to make you opt in to wanting it than put it there and make people opt out.

I found a cool app called Automatix that automates the install of a whole bunch of applications like google earth, picasa, skype, etc. Smoothed out a bunch of that and made it a one step process. Nice.

I had one...aggravating...pain in the butt...annoying situation around the Flash player. Gabe has figured out that he can name anything and I can produce a video of it on the computer. Fire trucks are a common request. Unfortunately, ubuntu comes preconfigured with an open source flash product called Gnash, which unabashedly notes its ineffectiveness in working properly with a lot of flash content, yet because its open source, its in there and the real adobe flash player for linux is not. Getting rid of gnash and getting the flash player installed was a horror show. I spent 3 hours uninstalling, rebooting, restarting, and all sorts of command line kludges with no luck. Then I noticed that the old fasioned tar installer on the flash web site had a different version number than the synaptic package installer in ubuntu has... a .115 version instead of .48. When I pulled up the terminal window during the synaptic package install, I could see that it was failing with an md5 checksum error near the end. Oddly, firefox believed it had the flash plugin installed, but any web site with flash content would report that flash wasnt installed or wasnt the correct version.

Once I manually removed all the vestiges of the 'bad' flash install and manually untarred and installed the .115 version by hand, all was well.

Some other stuff sort of requires that you know what you want or want to do and presuming something is the way it oughta be for most people is a bad idea. There is no firewall installed by default. Telnet is wide open. The system is configured by default to glom onto any open wireless network in preference to the key secured router you have in your house. That sort of thing.

Throughout all of this s/w installation, glitches and other funny business, there are also frequent documentation flaws and presumptions. In a number of cases I was directed to click 'xyz/abc/123/' only to find that there was no 'abc' option or that it was called something else. In many cases, a help or installation file said 'you must do this following command with xyz' or 'special privileges are required for the following' without saying what they were or how one would go about successfully completing the step, unless they already knew.

So I'm going to retract a little bit of my above endorsement. While its very easy to set up a basic working system from the standard ubuntu distribution disk, and that system will have a lot of features and capabilities...you still really have to have some technical understanding of unix and its oddities to put together a fully functioning, secure, safe environment that is doing what most people really want it to do. And a lot of stuff requires some manual intervention and presumption on behalf of the software providers that the user has some understanding and knowledge of the technical aspects of the system.
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