Angry at the hospital

[youbet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by firemediceric I had a similar experience of dealing with a callous medical professional who felt her credentials imbued upon her decision making powers she did not have. Attorney got involved. Hospital realized the error of their ways. Attached to this (I hope) is the redacted correspondence if you care to read it. In short, Dr. initiated a Do Not Resuscitate order without my consent for a man of who I am appointed the guardian.

Your situation seems to be the opposite of what many here are calling for: the elimination of heroic efforts to keep someone alive. In your case, the doc wanted to add the DNR order. Others are pointing out the doc not wanting to "let the patient go" even if relatives are requesting it.

I wonder how we get both sides of this equation handled, especially in cases where the patient does not have appropriate legal directives in place at the time of hospital admission?

[The Cosmic Avenger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by firemediceric I had a similar experience of dealing with a callous medical professional who felt her credentials imbued upon her decision making powers she did not have. Attorney got involved. Hospital realized the error of their ways. Attached to this (I hope) is the redacted correspondence if you care to read it. In short, Dr. initiated a Do Not Resuscitate order without my consent for a man of who I am appointed the guardian.

WOW. I hope that doctor loses her job, if not her medical license! Has your state agency on aging been contacted? They might want to review whether this doctor has fraudulently recorded any other end-of-life documents or ignored patient or proxy consent for any other elderly patients.

[firemediceric]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Cosmic Avenger WOW. I hope that doctor loses her job, if not her medical license! Has your state agency on aging been contacted? They might want to review whether this doctor has fraudulently recorded any other end-of-life documents or ignored patient or proxy consent for any other elderly patients.

System is so overwhelmed this wouldn't even be a blip on the radar. As an example, it took repeated egregious disregard of state statute with regard to DNR orders and a family fighting back before the guardian in these links was called to task. Plenty other news stories about this which unfortunately barely scratches the surface. Some of her cases have now been assigned to me.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...phe-story.html

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...4kq-story.html

[2retireearly]

I'm so sorry for you and your family. Each case is different. My parents had living wills, and each stipulated no artificial means of resuscitation. So when my mom, at 90, had a severe stroke, and basically never came to...right then...oddly, and horribly we prayed she would fail the swallow test. She did. That meant Hospice. That meant, no food..no water...she lasted 6 days. If you read about that, 'they' say it is humane. The body shuts down....it was really legal euthanasia. It was a blessing in her case....she may have suffered...I pray not...but she was allowed to die...vs live for years in a nursing home with a feeding tube.
Your case is different...it would be horrible to have your dad want to eat and drink and they kept it from him. I'm sorry

[Sittingduck]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2retireearly I'm so sorry for you and your family. Each case is different. My parents had living wills, and each stipulated no artificial means of resuscitation. So when my mom, at 90, had a severe stroke, and basically never came to...right then...oddly, and horribly we prayed she would fail the swallow test. She did. That meant Hospice. That meant, no food..no water...she lasted 6 days. If you read about that, 'they' say it is humane. The body shuts down....it was really legal euthanasia. It was a blessing in her case....she may have suffered...I pray not...but she was allowed to die...vs live for years in a nursing home with a feeding tube. Your case is different...it would be horrible to have your dad want to eat and drink and they kept it from him. I'm sorry

Sorry about your mom. We would undoutedly have faced this with dad eventually. I believe his already weak heart gave out from their withholding from him and stopping his IV for awhile.
I am glad he went quickly and did not endure weeks or months of hospice. But he was lucid and not being listened to. The thought of loosing control of what happens to you is the horrible aspect of this.

[Alexi]

So sorry about your father may he rest in peace.

As for me, I avoid doctors and hospitals like the plague.

[travelover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexi ..............As for me, I avoid doctors and hospitals like the plague.

Excellent plan. Like Woody says, I'm not afraid of death, I just don't want to be there when it happens.

[jldavid47]

Quote:

Originally Posted by davebarnes I, and my brother, became very angry at the [Emerson, Concord, MA] hospital because they tried to keep our father alive when it was [past] time for him to die. They did intravenous and oxygen. They would not give him enough morphine. He was 95.5 years old and his gag reflex had failed. He was not going to get better and go home. It was not until we got the hospice crew in control that it ended. Quickly. 30 minutes. Angry. You bet.

Well, you know, if they had let him die earlier it would have cost them revenue. Too cynical? I don't think so.

[jldavid47]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexi So sorry about your father may he rest in peace. As for me, I avoid doctors and hospitals like the plague.

I tell people that part of my long-term health plan is to avoid the medical industry as much as possible. I get a lot of puzzled looks lol.

[jldavid47]

Let me guess. Was this Edwards Hospital in Naperville?

[Alexi]

Ironically, during UK, Israeli and other doctor strikes, patient deaths decreased.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18849101

Reading:Â* Death Rate Drops During Doctor Strike

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...tors-go-strike

[rai-zero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sittingduck His DNR stated and listed no heroic measures. That did not include withholding food and water.

Condolences.

I’m an MD and have to say I think if anyone is not able to eat/drink safety then a feeding tube is 100% the way to go rather than no oral intake.

A feeding tube (PEG tube) can be placed in 30-35 minuets under anesthesia. The tube sticks out of stomach and so bypassing the swallowing. It’s quick and effective. Can give liquid food and medicine through the PEG tube. People live at home and can do all normal activity with a PEG tube.

If some time in future the patient is able to eat food the tube can be removed simply by pulling it out. Literally one minute no anesthesia.

I’m not sure why you or your father would decline a feeding tube in the hospital It’s like going to a barber shop and then declining a haircut. Maybe you were picturing a nasal feeding tube which is temporary and I’m sure is much more uncomfortable. A PEG feeding tube was likely the way to go, I think it’s sad that it happened but when you go to a hospital and refuse medical advice then you can have poor outcomes. Either way it was not a good prognosis with broken hip and UTI likely from dehydration in the first place a PEG tube would have done good things but these occurrences typically end in death not too far in the future (poor health, UTI, broken hip, dehydration they are pointing to the end imo).

I think aspiration pneumonia is a real risk with what you described and better to take a feeding tube than get aspiration and need a ventilator.

[Rianne]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rai-zero Condolences. I’m an MD and have to say I think if anyone is not able to eat/drink safety then a feeding tube is 100% the way to go rather than no oral intake. A feeding tube (PEG tube) can be placed in 30-35 minuets under anesthesia. The tube sticks out of stomach and so bypassing the swallowing. It’s quick and effective. Can give liquid food and medicine through the PEG tube. People live at home and can do all normal activity with a PEG tube. If some time in future the patient is able to eat food the tube can be removed simply by pulling it out. Literally one minute no anesthesia. I’m not sure why you or your father would decline a feeding tube in the hospital It’s like going to a barber shop and then declining a haircut. Maybe you were picturing a nasal feeding tube which is temporary and I’m sure is much more uncomfortable. A PEG feeding tube was likely the way to go, I think it’s sad that it happened but when you go to a hospital and refuse medical advice then you can have poor outcomes. Either way it was not a good prognosis with broken hip and UTI likely from dehydration in the first place a PEG tube would have done good things but these occurrences typically end in death not too far in the future (poor health, UTI, broken hip, dehydration they are pointing to the end imo). I think aspiration pneumonia is a real risk with what you described and better to take a feeding tube than get aspiration and need a ventilator.

I appreciate your explanation. My recollection of 3 relatives/friends in their 90's, my DM, my and DH grandmother, actually 4, DH grandfather and DF down the street. Then, my DMI with 4th stage colon cancer. Never an explanation nor a plan to use a PEG tube as you described. Seriously. My DM refused to eat in her last weeks. I did not know what a PEG tube was nor was one offered. The DR for my DF down the street did not sedate this woman in her 90's when he put an NG Tube, I thought that's what it was. She screamed in pain. Where are the DR's like you?

[rai-zero]

I understand why many won’t like a NG tube not just putting in painful but then it’s uncomfortable to have in your nose all the time. A PEG is more invasive to put in but use anesthesia, but once in place it’s a non issue. No pain or discomfort.

Course it’s too late but maybe the PEG tube would have brought more comfort and hydration to your father. In the end frail people don’t live forever but we’d like to have as much comfort and dignity not what happened here.

[rai-zero]

Here is link to PEG tube it said to be one of the most common gastric procedure 100K a year. Maybe they were talking about this and not NG feeding and message lost in the confusion. Might be it was not explicitly discussed.

https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/149665-overview

[copyright1997reloaded]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rianne I had a small bowel obstruction. Pray tell your son has recovered. I did not have surgery because they used an NG (nasogastric tube) that removed bile from my small bowel. I believe the stomach pump you referred to is the NG tube. It is awful to insert. You have to be awake and swallow until it reaches the exact location in your stomach. This takes multiple ex-rays. The tube and pump remain for several days. Came within an hour of surgery. The tube was successful. I just about cried when I read your post.

Yes, he is now doing great. Thank you. Each and every day I count my blessings to still have my son. It is even hard to type this without becoming very emotional.

Yes, they had to NG him...two different times. Yes, it was awful for him to go through, and after all was said and done I wonder if I would have had the inner strength to do the same.

After doing the tube placement, we had to go down to get XRAYs to see if the placement was correct. He had been throwing up (hundreds of times) over several days, was taken completely off food and then off liquids. He was already severely underweight and weak. It had been a real struggle to do the NG tube. and he was crying that he didn't want it. While we were waiting for the XRAY, a family was talking to an elderly woman who there for some test. They were upset with her because she was refusing to undergo more tests. She had had enough. My son was watching this. He looked at me for awhile, then softly told me that he wasn't ready to give up.

[Rianne]

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Originally Posted by copyright1997reloaded Yes, he is now doing great. Thank you. Each and every day I count my blessings to still have my son. It is even hard to type this without becoming very emotional. Yes, they had to NG him...two different times. Yes, it was awful for him to go through, and after all was said and done I wonder if I would have had the inner strength to do the same. After doing the tube placement, we had to go down to get XRAYs to see if the placement was correct. He had been throwing up (hundreds of times) over several days, was taken completely off food and then off liquids. He was already severely underweight and weak. It had been a real struggle to do the NG tube. and he was crying that he didn't want it. While we were waiting for the XRAY, a family was talking to an elderly woman who there for some test. They were upset with her because she was refusing to undergo more tests. She had had enough. My son was watching this. He looked at me for awhile, then softly told me that he wasn't ready to give up.

So relieved and happy your son is doing well. I hope the very best for him. My first cousin, an admin nurse at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore had a SBO while traveling. They had to go to a small hospital off the highway for the treatment. It happens so unexpectedly and is difficult to figure out (for the medical staff).

My eating habits have changed forever. Small meals, lots of fiber and rarely eat after 4 p.m.

[SpinDoctorTX]

So sorry about the loss of your dad, and the circumstances that surrounded the event. Hopefully the end of life bad memories will fade soon and you can get on with your happy memories to comfort you and your family.

[Oz investor]

my deepest sympathy on the loss of your father

i am of the school that dictates i may forgive , but i will NEVER forget ,

regarding the lost wallet i would consider that the smallest theif in the building

we ( in Australia ) had an inquiry into aged care , and the first witness gave such horrific evidence on the demise of her mother ( in hospital ) that the inquiry was shut down and 3 years later restarted with new guide lines focused on retirement villas and their related contracts .

maybe you should go on social media recommending the staff be shifted to a military facility in Cuba , to complement the medical staff there ( they seem to have the 'care factor ' at the required level )

PS i have still not forgiven the staff the caused the premature death of my great-uncle in the 1960s , and watch in hope every time that medical facility is threatened by wild fires ( which is every 3 or 4 years )

PPS i am not sure any amount of money would soothe my irritation ( especially since you aparently visited regularly and gave input )

[Buckeye]

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Originally Posted by marko Forget the police report. Nothing gets an organization's attention like a lawyer showing up at the door. You say you don't want a lawsuit, that's ok, you don't have to go that route. But a lawyer would get you the answers/response/apology you deserve. If the lawyer is able to get you some additional 'gratification' all the better.

Make sure you have standing. In Florida, the only people with standing are a spouse, an adult child under 25 or a disabled child. One of the local hospital chains in Orlando, Advent, killed my mother about a year ago but there was no one with standing to sue. No lawyer was interested. Old person dead, no big deal. They couldn't care less about a person killed by malpractice if they didn't fit a high award category. Being old and a victim of malpractice doesn't cut it. Dime a dozen. Next!

I was with her 24/7 while she was in the hospital and I still couldn't keep them from killing her. I complained to Medicare but that was a total waste of time. All the bad things they did to her (for example, tearing a big patch of skin of her arm), were deemed to be standard of care. Don't waste your time.

Stay out of hospitals!