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Old 02-12-2019, 05:34 PM   #61
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I have read all the comments. For me, ICE is still the choice. When there is an EV that:
1) Has a 500+ mile range.
2) And has that range at 65+ freeway speeds
3) That can refill in the same time as a gasoline fill up
4) That is cost comparable


THEN - I will consider one. Till then, no way. **MAYBE** an EV for a 2nd car for just around town use. Maybe. Shrug.



The other thing I see is that often the EV crowd seems to thing themselves superior. Not all of that crowd, but often. Just an observation.
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Old 02-12-2019, 06:31 PM   #62
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Are they adding the recharge power cost on the meal bill?
For 50 to 75 cents?

Why bother?

Most people tip more.
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Old 02-12-2019, 08:46 PM   #63
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Are they adding the recharge power cost on the meal bill?

Other than incentives provided by certain EV manufacturers, public charging is usually not free. It is a pay for use service, just like filling your tank with gas.

The charging stations are generally operated by a company such as Chargepoint, EVnow, Blink, etc. and require an account with them linked to your cc. You scan your ID card or phone app to initiate the charging. They’ll send you a notification when the charging is complete.

The business associated with the charge station location (restaurant, library, Walgreens) is generally not involved in the transaction.
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Old 02-12-2019, 08:58 PM   #64
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For 50 to 75 cents?

Why bother?

Most people tip more.
What people tip is not relevant. It's expecting others to subsidize someone else's choice. Maybe those plugging in their EV should happily pay a surcharge on their meal rather than have others chip in.
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Old 02-12-2019, 09:07 PM   #65
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I .... Average range means nothing unless 100% of your trips are average.
With 200+ mile range vehicles coming out means your longer commutes don't matter. In fact, that was one reason my kid with a long commute has a 200+ mile EV.

Electricity generation various considerably depending on your state!! MORE importantly, it is the one source that is getting CLEANER every year. ...

+1 Music Lover.

Eroscott has problems with the misapplication of averages. As that old saw goes "The 6 foot statistician drown standing in a pool with an average depth of 3 feet."

And as I've pointed out time and time again (and will continue every time these EV fans mention averages on the grid), averages for power generation don't matter. What matters is the extra marginal power needed to charge a fleet of EVs. Since renewable energy (RE) sources are already limited, any added demand must be met by fossil. Nukes typically already run at max capacity.

Those EVs are running on fossil fuel. That's all there is to it. A bunch of fancy positive trends don't change that.

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Old 02-12-2019, 09:15 PM   #66
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And just to keeping it real-world that it is not hours to fill up...
Usually for 25-30 minutes to fill up JUST ENOUGH to get to the next supercharger.
I think sometimes EV devotees don't realize that some of their observations strike those outside the EV community as quite out of the ordinary.

The quoted section above: I would never consider this an acceptable way to travel long distances. Well, maybe if I had a horse that needed to rest for thirty minutes every few hours, and if it could only drink from special watering holes--I guess I'd have to accept it.
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Old 02-12-2019, 09:18 PM   #67
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For 50 to 75 cents?

Why bother?

Most people tip more.
What people tip is not relevant. It's expecting others to subsidize someone else's choice. Maybe those plugging in their EV should happily pay a surcharge on their meal rather than have others chip in.
Interesting (being polite), how these EV fans so often change the subject instead of simply addressing the issue. As you say, tipping has nothing to do with it.

Most EV drivers already get a bunch of benefits. Tax credits for the buyer, the manufacturer probably got credits (which trickles down to the EV buyer), priority lane usage, not contributing to road taxes, etc.

This smugness is getting to me. The EV fans are looking for support, but I think they are just creating a backlash with all this diversion and smoke and mirrors. At this point, if some place I frequent started offering free charging for EVs, I'd ask for a top off of my gas tank. Why not? What's the deal? That EV isn't saving the planet, why am I paying for their travel? It's getting aggravating.

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Old 02-12-2019, 09:29 PM   #68
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What people tip is not relevant. It's expecting others to subsidize someone else's choice. Maybe those plugging in their EV should happily pay a surcharge on their meal rather than have others chip in.
That is a normal part of doing business.

When a restaurant adds white linen tableclothes on their tables, they do it to draw more customers, and the prices on the menu go up five times as much as the cost of the tablecloths.

Nobody is subsidizing anything.
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Old 02-12-2019, 09:44 PM   #69
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That is a normal part of doing business.

When a restaurant adds white linen tableclothes on their tables, they do it to draw more customers, and the prices on the menu go up five times as much as the cost of the tablecloths.

Nobody is subsidizing anything.


The white linen tablecloths are for all customers. Not just people who drive blue cars, or who own Border Collies. You don't see the difference?

Based on some of these responses, I'm seriously starting to wonder if the Electro-Magnetic Radiation from those powerful motors in EVs isn't affecting the driver's brains. Maybe that explains some of these EV drivers relying on "Autopilot"?

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Old 02-12-2019, 09:44 PM   #70
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+1 Music Lover.

Eroscott has problems with the misapplication of averages. As that old saw goes "The 6 foot statistician drown standing in a pool with an average depth of 3 feet."

And as I've pointed out time and time again (and will continue every time these EV fans mention averages on the grid), averages for power generation don't matter. What matters is the extra marginal power needed to charge a fleet of EVs. Since renewable energy (RE) sources are already limited, any added demand must be met by fossil. Nukes typically already run at max capacity.

Those EVs are running on fossil fuel. That's all there is to it. A bunch of fancy positive trends don't change that.

-ERD50


EVs will be truly green if they are required to be charged only from solar power. Although everything is connected to the grid, it is not difficult to count how much power solar plants are contributing to the grid, and how much is being drawn out from the grid by charging stations. This is how electricity producers and consumers settle score when everyone is connected to the grid.

This of course means no charging at night. You cannot get solar power from moon shine!
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Old 02-12-2019, 10:04 PM   #71
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The white linen tablecloths are for all customers. Not just people who drive blue cars, or who own Border Collies. You don't see the difference?
By increasing the prices the owners can increase their profits. That is all that matters. If a few EV drivers get a benefit, who cares?

Owners of these restaurants are betting on EVs being a wave of the future.

I drive a plug-in. I charge it from our solar-powered house. I have been retired for a while now, I recently bought some rental real estate. My hybrid plug-in can get me from home, to my investment property, and home again. Without consuming petroleum. To me that is a big 'WIN'!

With EV charging stations located from coast-to-coast across this nation, so long as each location is a businessman using this to increase his business, it is all 'free'! Give it a rest. Catch your breath and regain composure.
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Old 02-12-2019, 10:08 PM   #72
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EVs will be truly green if they are required to be charged only from solar power.
I dont own a EV. I have a hybrid. My hybrid normally gets me where I want to go, using solar-power. When I sometimes need to go somewhere further, then I burn a little petro. Who cares?

I like it because as a retiree I prefer to spend less money.

Get over it.
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Old 02-12-2019, 10:11 PM   #73
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I have read all the comments. For me, ICE is still the choice. When there is an EV that:
1) Has a 500+ mile range.
2) And has that range at 65+ freeway speeds
3) That can refill in the same time as a gasoline fill up
4) That is cost comparable
I've never owned an ICE vehicle that could go 500+ miles. Maybe if you drive a truck or something, but every passenger car I've owned has maxed around 360 miles on a tank. My old 76 VW Rabbit only got around 240 miles per tank, not much different than today's EV's.

Besides, 500 miles at 70mph is over 7 hours of non-stop driving. Surely you would need to stop for food, empty your bladder, or get some sleep before then?

Your needs may be different, but most people aren't driving those kinds of distances on a daily basis. Maybe when taking a trip somewhere, but there's no reason you couldn't have an ICE car for long trips and an EV for around town.

I would buy an EV today if they weren't so expensive. But my idea of affordable is $5000 or less. That's why I've never owned a car that was less than 15 years old.
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Old 02-12-2019, 10:12 PM   #74
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I dont own a EV. I have a hybrid. My hybrid normally gets me where I want to go, using solar-power. When I sometimes need to go somewhere further, then I burn a little petro. Who cares?

I like it because as a retiree I prefer to spend less money.

Get over it.
If a Tesla owner says he likes his car because of the acceleration and all the gadgets, and because the subsidy sweetens the deal, and all the free charging, people all understand.

What gets debated here is the claim that their vehicles are green, and that is dubious. And I say that even though I like EVs (do not own one, and never a hybrid one even), and I like solar energy.

I am building a DIY solar+battery storage, and it does not even qualify for any subsidy or rebate.

PS. My DIY system will supplement, not replace, my grid connection. Even doing it myself and with a good deal on lithium battery, it will take me 10 years to recover the cost. And that is with all my free labor.

I am having fun, teach myself something, and hope to recover the cost in 10 years. And I will not claim to be superior to my neighbors who do not have such a system. Well, I am certainly more technically knowledgeable. Just not morally superior.
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Old 02-12-2019, 11:23 PM   #75
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And just to keeping it real-world that it is not hours to fill up...
Usually for 25-30 minutes to fill up JUST ENOUGH to get to the next supercharger.
I think sometimes EV devotees don't realize that some of their observations strike those outside the EV community as quite out of the ordinary.

The quoted section above: I would never consider this an acceptable way to travel long distances. Well, maybe if I had a horse that needed to rest for thirty minutes every few hours, and if it could only drink from special watering holes--I guess I'd have to accept it.
I appreciate your comments and feedback. I get what you are saying on face value. However, for modest travel it is not dramatically different and in many ways fairly relaxing (of course, I do use AutoPilot too so the car steers staying very centered in the lane and maintains a distance to the car ahead ... similar to a a horse steering itself!! :-} ).

Points:
a) What I mean by that is often people (more so for older ones?) want to take breaks for the bathroom or stretch their legs or get a snack/drink. This is often 10-15-20 minutes anyway in my experience.

b) Typically when you leave you are charging up with a full or nearly full battery because you have just charged overnight.

c) Another point that I mentioned above that may have been missed that if you are stopping for lunch (or dinner) that you simply charge up longer and your next stop then is shorter.

Check out this trip 311 mile trip which I've done a few times (starting town not actual but in vicinity). We would stop in Indianapolis for lunch and even tho we only had to stop for 23 minutes we would eat longer than that and not be in a rush.


https://abetterrouteplanner.com/


Quote:
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I dont own a EV. I have a hybrid. My hybrid normally gets me where I want to go, using solar-power.
I can only guess you have a plug-in hybrid (PHEV - plug-in hybrid electric vehicle) since you mention solar. Just a suggestion that you may want to clarify in the future as most people think of hybrids as self-contained like the Prius and the like that 'generate' their own electricity from gas instead of from the grid which is several times cheaper.
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Old 02-12-2019, 11:40 PM   #76
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Points:
a) What I mean by that is often people (more so for older ones?) want to take breaks for the bathroom or stretch their legs or get a snack/drink. This is often 10-15-20 minutes anyway in my experience.

b) Typically when you leave you are charging up with a full or nearly full battery because you have just charged overnight.

c) Another point that I mentioned above that may have been missed that if you are stopping for lunch (or dinner) that you simply charge up longer and your next stop then is shorter.

Check out this trip 311 mile trip which I've done a few times (starting town not actual but in vicinity). We would stop in Indianapolis for lunch and even tho we only had to stop for 23 minutes we would eat longer than that and not be in a rush.


https://abetterrouteplanner.com/
Yes, I see that you don't mind planning around fuel stops on a long trip. Nothing wrong with that. As for me and DW, we want to eat when we are hungry, etc without a lot of pre-planning. We want to eat where we choose (not just a place near a charger), and I would not want to arrive at an unfamilar town with 20 miles of range in the tank and another hour (plus) of charging somewhere before we could set out with a full "tank" the next day. 500 miles is a normal day of traveling for us, and stops are short. Fueling spots for IC cars are so ubiquitous and refueling is so rapid and infrequent that I would not voluntarily give it up for this total EV experience.

I'm glad EV drivers have this option. Only when I'm asked to pay for it is it an issue with me.
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Old 02-13-2019, 05:52 AM   #77
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I've never owned an ICE vehicle that could go 500+ miles. Maybe if you drive a truck or something, but every passenger car I've owned has maxed around 360 miles on a tank. My old 76 VW Rabbit only got around 240 miles per tank, not much different than today's EV's.

Besides, 500 miles at 70mph is over 7 hours of non-stop driving. Surely you would need to stop for food, empty your bladder, or get some sleep before then?
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What I mean by that is often people (more so for older ones?) want to take breaks for the bathroom or stretch their legs or get a snack/drink. This is often 10-15-20 minutes anyway in my experience.
At 75+ mph my car has a range of 850 kms (525 miles).

My girlfriend and I recently drove to Florida from Canada...2800 kms, or about 1750 miles. Day 1 was 1050 kms (650 miles). We stopped 3 times for pee breaks including crossing the border and getting gas. All 3 stops were 10 minutes or less. We pack lunches and eat on the road. Total time start to finish was about 8.5 hours.

We're probably not typical travellers based on the above, but that's what we prefer.
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Old 02-13-2019, 06:54 AM   #78
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... PS. My DIY system will supplement, not replace, my grid connection. Even doing it myself and with a good deal on lithium battery, it will take me 10 years to recover the cost. And that is with all my free labor.
If you lived on a farm, your solar-power system would depreciate over 7 years.

1/7th of the total cost is a write-off each year, for seven years.

This drastically changes how many years it takes to 'pay for itself'.
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Old 02-13-2019, 07:00 AM   #79
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We have traveled on roads recently that while pulling a small trailer had a 250 mile range. And hoped that the only gas station within 150 miles was open. Also had a long detour near the NM and AZ border along I-10 and almost ran out of gas. I think the small gas station was about out due to the unforseen traffic. Stuff happens, how will things like this play out with a vehicle needing a charging station?
They seem ok but not for long trips and long Sunday drives out in the country. Can't carry an extra battery like you can a 5 gallon can of gas. IOW we ain't there yet!
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Old 02-13-2019, 07:01 AM   #80
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.... I can only guess you have a plug-in hybrid (PHEV - plug-in hybrid electric vehicle) since you mention solar. Just a suggestion that you may want to clarify in the future as most people think of hybrids as self-contained like the Prius and the like that 'generate' their own electricity from gas instead of from the grid which is several times cheaper.
Yes, as I said I drive a plug-in hybrid. I charge it up from my household solar-power system.

Most days my daily driving is less than 25 miles, round trip, so I can do all of it on EV using solar-power.

But if I need to make a longer trip, after 25 miles the ICE turns on and takes me the rest of the way.
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