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Old 07-08-2014, 12:27 PM   #61
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Personally, I am fascinated at the number of women who leave a marriage, and leave the kids with their ex-husband. I can think of several without even trying. It's supposed to be the other way around, but women leaving the husband and the kids seems more common than we are led to believe.
My wife took off and left our children with me. I was very glad of that part anyway. She had been a good wife and mother to small children, but she was incompetent to raise teenage boys alone. My sister is the same way. Did a good job on her two daughters, but demolished her two sons.

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Old 07-08-2014, 01:20 PM   #62
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Personally, I am fascinated at the number of women who leave a marriage, and leave the kids with their ex-husband. I can think of several without even trying. It's supposed to be the other way around, but women leaving the husband and the kids seems more common than we are led to believe.
I saw a woman leave her kids with her ex. She decided she was gay and ran off with her lover. The lover left her after the money ran out. Her ex actually took her back but he was a bit strange.

I also knew of a marriage being held together because they each wanted the other one to take the kids. I don't know how long that kept them together. She wanted an open marriage and he didn't.

A man's accessibility to the kids seem to be reguarly used as an economic bargaining chip which provides a reason for the "traditional" approach.
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Old 07-08-2014, 02:33 PM   #63
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Sorry to side step, sheehs1, but 2B - Wow. Isn't that just a kicker! Good thing she dumped you IMHO.
A dodged bullet for sure.
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Old 07-08-2014, 07:54 PM   #64
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Small wrinkle. In an effort to share a deal together back in 2013 after being thought about for years (and I would not do it), I agreed to pay off my husbands loan on his office building and the balance on his credit card. so instead of paying the bank, I became the bank and the interest came into the home.

Total loan was $125,000, terms to be paid off in 5 years. Rather than take a deed on the property because I really did not want to deal with that property, i requested that he up his life insurance for that amount (in the event something happened to him. Besides he wanted his boys to inherit that property. (Good luck, in a small town, and has decades of CPA files that would need to be cleaned out among other things).

So we signed a promissory note with the terms. Included a clause where I could call the note at any time for any reason. The balance is currently $100,000. I called the loan last week. Also included were the terms of the life insurance that would run until the loan was paid off.

He is angry and irrational. Threatening to default which legally he could but I warned him about the damage to his credit when I went to get a judgement. I said, " I could live with the judgement and wait for my money. But I didn't think he could live with this on his credit report.
BTW: He has already secured a loan in his name and has the money. Just being jerky, I guess.

He now is making demands for a new property settlement agreement so that I can not take him for support. I reminded him we both waived alimony in the agreement.

Am trying to keep my head but he does not want to make me mad. I'll give him a couple of more weeks or so to get past this anger stage.

But one of my concerns was if he would challenge the agreement he signed in 2007, causing us both to spend money with expensive lawyers. He doesn't want to make me mad. The cruelty, the wasting of assets on his side of the fence, the drugs would not bode well in court. Or perhaps it wouldn't matter these days. I do not want to have to prove those grounds and simply want a quiet irreconcilable differences divorce.

Angry people do irrational things. And I am reminded when dealing with a narcissist. "Do Not Poke The Snake".
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Old 07-08-2014, 08:03 PM   #65
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Wow, sorry you have to deal with all this. To give credit to my ex, she was very reasonable to deal with once the divorce decision was made. There was none of the vindictive revenge-seeking behavior I hear about so often.

She even refinanced the car loan (she was keeping the new car, I was fine with that) in her name to get my name off the loan since I wanted to buy a house within two years and may not have been able to do that with the outstanding loan in my name too.
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Old 07-08-2014, 08:15 PM   #66
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Wow, sorry you have to deal with all this. To give credit to my ex, she was very reasonable to deal with once the divorce decision was made. There was none of the vindictive revenge-seeking behavior I hear about so often.

She even refinanced the car loan (she was keeping the new car, I was fine with that) in her name to get my name off the loan since I wanted to buy a house within two years and may not have been able to do that with the outstanding loan in my name too.
Glad she was reasonable Walt34.
This is his typical response. In a month it should be a little different. Or perhaps not when he realizes this is truly the final straw.
It just tells me even more the only reason he was hanging on was because of the money I had saved over the last 22 years. He could have saved his own. He didn't. But he has his own business so he will be just fine. May have to work until he is 70+ but that is his fault.
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Old 07-09-2014, 08:59 AM   #67
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Angry people do irrational things. And I am reminded when dealing with a narcissist. "Do Not Poke The Snake".
I had to fire my first attorney because he would not quit poking the snake. I think he did it on purpose knowing it would anger the ex which caused the proceedings to drag on and thereby pad his hours.

Umm, no, not playing that game.
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Old 07-09-2014, 09:16 AM   #68
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But one of my concerns was if he would challenge the agreement he signed in 2007, causing us both to spend money with expensive lawyers. He doesn't want to make me mad. The cruelty, the wasting of assets on his side of the fence, the drugs would not bode well in court. Or perhaps it wouldn't matter these days. I do not want to have to prove those grounds and simply want a quiet irreconcilable differences divorce.

Angry people do irrational things. And I am reminded when dealing with a narcissist. "Do Not Poke The Snake".
I don't recall if you already posted the answer to my question but I'll ask it. Have you officially filed for your divorce?

You have rocked his life and probably made him see how vulnerable his personal and financial situation really is. You had been providing food and shelter and were there to backstop the financial end of his building. No matter what he did you had always been there to make sure his life didn't fall apart. I'm sure he's convinced that you "owe" him.

He is most likely going to come at you with everything he can muster. You should expect the 2007 agreement to be challenged simply because he doesn't really have that much to lose. If he gets it thrown out, he gets to help himself to a bunch of your assets. If he doesn't succeed, he's only slightly poorer by the cost of the lawyer.

I suggest you file the divorce if not already filed. I also suggest you lawyer up for what I expect will be coming. Your divorce lawyer needs to be someone that is experienced in dealing with prenups and litigation around them. You have too many assets at risk not to spend some money to protect them. I also suggest you have no direct contact with your ex. Deal with him entirely through your attorney. Don't let him hit any of your buttons. Make this a business transaction from this time forward.
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Old 07-09-2014, 09:32 AM   #69
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I had to fire my first attorney because he would not quit poking the snake. I think he did it on purpose knowing it would anger the ex which caused the proceedings to drag on and thereby pad his hours.

Umm, no, not playing that game.
Tend to agree with you here BTravlin. Runs up the legal fees.
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Old 07-09-2014, 09:38 AM   #70
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Small wrinkle. In an effort to share a deal together back in 2013 after being thought about for years (and I would not do it), I agreed to pay off my husbands loan on his office building and the balance on his credit card. so instead of paying the bank, I became the bank and the interest came into the home.

Total loan was $125,000, terms to be paid off in 5 years. Rather than take a deed on the property because I really did not want to deal with that property, i requested that he up his life insurance for that amount (in the event something happened to him. Besides he wanted his boys to inherit that property. (Good luck, in a small town, and has decades of CPA files that would need to be cleaned out among other things).

So we signed a promissory note with the terms. Included a clause where I could call the note at any time for any reason. The balance is currently $100,000. I called the loan last week. Also included were the terms of the life insurance that would run until the loan was paid off.

He is angry and irrational. Threatening to default which legally he could but I warned him about the damage to his credit when I went to get a judgement. I said, " I could live with the judgement and wait for my money. But I didn't think he could live with this on his credit report.
BTW: He has already secured a loan in his name and has the money. Just being jerky, I guess.
So long as you feel comfortable that he can/will continue making the loan payments, why call the loan now? Could that potentially be making the divorce proceedings more contentious? Can you get him to agree to not fight anything else if you don't call the loan? Unless you need the cash, I would think the interest on the loan is probably higher than you could earn elsewhere, and it will be paid off in 2018. If not calling it now can reduce the hassle to you, it may be worth it.
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Old 07-09-2014, 09:43 AM   #71
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To OP:


Hire the most experienced and toughest lawyer you can find. You have a lot of assets to protect.

I'd be willing to bet my life he will challenge the 2007 agreement, and I think you can expect things to get very ugly very soon. It won't matter how rational you are, or how many facts are in your favor.

Just let the lawyers deal with all of it. I don't understand why you would even want to have any direct contact or conversations with him. Given the behavioral history they won't be productive, and IMHO any contact just continues the unhealthy relationship model you have both been participating in for 22 years. You say you are ready to move on. The first step to that is cutting contact with him completely. You don't have any minor children you are co-parenting, so there is no real reason for you to have contact with him.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but it's all about the legalities from this point forward, and the lawyers are equipped to deal with that - you are not. Protect the assets you have built up over the years, cut the cord, and move on to better days. Any other path just prolongs the toxic effects of the relationship.

Good luck to you and your daughter.
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Old 07-09-2014, 09:45 AM   #72
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I don't recall if you already posted the answer to my question but I'll ask it. Have you officially filed for your divorce?

You have rocked his life and probably made him see how vulnerable his personal and financial situation really is. You had been providing food and shelter and were there to backstop the financial end of his building. No matter what he did you had always been there to make sure his life didn't fall apart. I'm sure he's convinced that you "owe" him.

He is most likely going to come at you with everything he can muster. You should expect the 2007 agreement to be challenged simply because he doesn't really have that much to lose. If he gets it thrown out, he gets to help himself to a bunch of your assets. If he doesn't succeed, he's only slightly poorer by the cost of the lawyer.

I suggest you file the divorce if not already filed. I also suggest you lawyer up for what I expect will be coming. Your divorce lawyer needs to be someone that is experienced in dealing with prenups and litigation around them. You have too many assets at risk not to spend some money to protect them. I also suggest you have no direct contact with your ex. Deal with him entirely through your attorney. Don't let him hit any of your buttons. Make this a business transaction from this time forward.
Sorry 2B, I must have missed the question. In our state, the physical separation has to occur before the filing. Since no minor children are involved it usually takes 6 months. I sat down with my lawyer (from the prior separations) last week. He said if the two of us could agree that we have lived separate and apart, even while living under the same roof, it can be backdated to an agreed upon date. I relayed this to my "ex" and he said he would be fine with getting the divorce "tomorrow". (anger speaking there). The living separate and apart under the same roof is not a problem and is very true. Separate bedrooms, not marital relations for years. Presumably due to the pills he takes. Meaning I am no slouch, for my age, that is. Don't wear my wedding rings to the local Y because they get in my way with weights and have had a couple of guys asked me out in the last year or two, thinking I was single. I guess I'm just trying to say, the lack of intimacy was more than disappointing and wasn't from my end, except there was no trust or respect and that definitely affects that. I now just have to get him to agree to a date.

My ex's current mantra is he wants an addendum to the 2007 Post Marital Agreement restating that I will come after him for nothing. He sat down with a lawyer and I'm both knowing and thinking he has a vulnerability in that agreement. What is it? The one I know about is he breached one of the articles. The one that stated he agreed to not waste assets, to not do risky stock market gambling (IPO's, Options, etc). Breached big time. However, my lawyer said since in this agreement, my assets are mine and his are his, they are not marital property. Perhaps I need to get a second read on that In affect, he wasted his own assets and not so called "marital assets". He said I could try for some compensation but if I wanted the agreement to stand, might be best to leave it alone. I agree with him.

He is holding up his repayment of the loan I gave him in return for my signature on a new addendum. Right now not signing anything. Don't need the money. So he is worried about something. I am no longer formally working while he has a CPA practice. I have what is historically over $100K in K1 income so I don't think a judge would grant me a whole lot. Probably zero. Besides, I don't need his money. I have assets and he doesn't but he has the wherewithal to be o.k. if he would stop gambling.
Personally I think a judge would have a hard time throwing that agreement out. We have lived under the auspices of it thru 2 or 3 separations since. There was a clause addressing future separations and this agreement stands thru out future separations and reconciliations.
So, have a lawyer. Have visited with him yet again. And plan to file as soon as I get my money back from this loan. Because serving him with divorce papers now would inflame him further.
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Old 07-09-2014, 09:49 AM   #73
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So long as you feel comfortable that he can/will continue making the loan payments, why call the loan now? Could that potentially be making the divorce proceedings more contentious? Can you get him to agree to not fight anything else if you don't call the loan? Unless you need the cash, I would think the interest on the loan is probably higher than you could earn elsewhere, and it will be paid off in 2018. If not calling it now can reduce the hassle to you, it may be worth it.
Possibly, but after divorce one tends to want a clean break with the other person. Get them out of one's life and move on. The fewer opportunities for the ex partner to pull one's strings and instigate conflict, the better. The biggest obstacle to that is usually children, especially minor ones.

A big loan that goes on for three more years, means three more years of potential contact with the ex, most likely in adversarial positions. And if he does not pay on time, this mess could go on longer.

Getting the loan refinanced would eliminate the unwelcome contact.

Just My 2. YMMV.
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Old 07-09-2014, 09:56 AM   #74
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So long as you feel comfortable that he can/will continue making the loan payments, why call the loan now? Could that potentially be making the divorce proceedings more contentious? Can you get him to agree to not fight anything else if you don't call the loan? Unless you need the cash, I would think the interest on the loan is probably higher than you could earn elsewhere, and it will be paid off in 2018. If not calling it now can reduce the hassle to you, it may be worth it.
FIRE'd@51. I gave him that option when I called it. You are thinking like I did. All he had to do was let me know which option. Knowing him, I knew he was not going to want to pay me the monthly interest and the $25K principle payment each April until the balance was zero.

So getting the loan was his option. Now I'm getting blamed for his closing costs. But since this was originally a commercial line of credit I don't understand why he had closing cost. If he went for a traditional mortgage, that too was his decision.
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Old 07-09-2014, 09:58 AM   #75
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Possibly, but after divorce one tends to want a clean break with the other person. Get them out of one's life and move on. The fewer opportunities for the ex partner to pull one's strings and instigate conflict, the better. The biggest obstacle to that is usually children, especially minor ones.

A big loan that goes on for three more years, means three more years of potential contact with the ex, most likely in adversarial positions. And if he does not pay on time, this mess could go on longer.

Getting the loan refinanced would eliminate the unwelcome contact.

Just My 2. YMMV.
And I agree with this Chuckanut. To get a monthly interest payment from him each month would keep the contact going...for 4 (not 3) more years. I can put it in Dominion stock and get almost 4% or find other investments that get me something without the contact. Agree 100%.
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Old 07-09-2014, 10:05 AM   #76
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So, have a lawyer. Have visited with him yet again. And plan to file as soon as I get my money back from this loan. Because serving him with divorce papers now would inflame him further.
I wouldn't bother worrying about what would inflame him further. You are just dragging it out. I'm sensing that the enabling/co-dependence mechanisms are still in place. This needs to be looked upon as a business transaction. Start the divorce ASAP. Don't deal with him directly. The loan you called is a separate issue. If he isn't paying you according the his legal requirements, you need to start foreclosure proceedings angainst him. Very possibly, you will need a real estate lawyer for this.

As for him wanting to modify the agreement, refer it to your divorce lawyer. From what it sounds like, you are the only one with significant assets that need to be protected. Any changes to the agreement can only be to his benefit. It is also only to his benefit to delay the divorce.

If you truly want a divorce, you need to stop the drama and just do it.
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Old 07-09-2014, 10:11 AM   #77
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So getting the loan was his option. Now I'm getting blamed for his closing costs. But since this was originally a commercial line of credit I don't understand why he had closing cost. If he went for a traditional mortgage, that too was his decision.
You shouldn't care what is going on in his life nor have contlact with him. You called the loan. Foreclose. If he contacts you, tell him to call your lawyer. If he won't agree to an immediate divorce and you have to physically separate for six months, that is better that continuing your soap opera.
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Old 07-09-2014, 10:21 AM   #78
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I support what 2B says. I am very concerned that you still want to deal with him directly. There is a danger that you will get sucked back in, or hurt more than is necessary. For your own sake, make a clean break, deal with the divorce and the loan as business transactions, and communicate only through your lawyer.
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Old 07-09-2014, 10:36 AM   #79
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I wouldn't bother worrying about what would inflame him further. You are just dragging it out. I'm sensing that the enabling/co-dependence mechanisms are still in place. This needs to be looked upon as a business transaction. Start the divorce ASAP. Don't deal with him directly......If you truly want a divorce, you need to stop the drama and just do it.
This.
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Old 07-09-2014, 10:48 AM   #80
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Good luck, sheesh1.

Gambling is a disease, most often a life time one. I have many close relatives who ruined their marriages & lives b/c of it. I guess the disease runs in our family. It's amazing that you kept your side of finance strong all along the way. It could have easily ruined both of your finances before this point.
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