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Another member of the well regulated militia
Old 04-20-2007, 04:51 PM   #1
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Another member of the well regulated militia

Just holed himself inside a Johnson Space Center building demonstrating his 2nd amendment right to bear arms.
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia
Old 04-20-2007, 05:03 PM   #2
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia


global warming
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia
Old 04-20-2007, 05:20 PM   #3
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia

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global warming
O.k. now that made me laugh.
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia
Old 04-20-2007, 06:08 PM   #4
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia

I suggest that the state legislature quickly pass a law forbidding the possession of guns, notify the person holding the hostages that it is against the law to possess a gun and then arrange to receive the weapon which he will hand over immediately as he certainly wouldn't want to break the law. We can then all give thanks for gun control.
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia
Old 04-20-2007, 06:43 PM   #5
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia

You know, I sit here scratching my head about this gun control issue. I realize this is a hot button for many, and that's fine, but I find it interesting how the words "gun control" automatically generate such reactions, as if a police state is here to confiscate everyone's guns. On the other thread I was called a liberal, not that I give a sh* what I'm called but what does that have to do with the question of gun control. Then there's the jokes about gun control meaning being able to aim correctly, jokes about global warming, etc. I didn't realize just the words gun control evoked such reactions.

Again, when I say gun control I mean taking steps to lessen the opportunity for the mentally deranged, the hoodlums, the terrorists, to get their hands on a handgun or military weapons and kill innocent Americans. I never thought this would be a controlversial subject. Background checks for criminal records, for mental problems, etc. I guess I'm pretty naive to think this is consistent with the 2nd amendment well regulated militia clause.

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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia
Old 04-20-2007, 07:49 PM   #6
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia

I think that NRA has conditioned people so that any sort of gun control is the work of the devil. Look at Jim Zumbo who didn't approve of hunting prairie dogs with automatic weapons. An outdoor columnist and hunter, he made the mistake of questioning the NRA and is out of a column, job and TV show. That will teach him for thinking for himself.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...022301709.html

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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia
Old 04-20-2007, 08:14 PM   #7
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia

SoontoRetire makes a reasoned observation.

If only all of us were so reasoned!

Rather than engage in heated rhetoric, I'll simply offer that those who get visceral on this issue (perhaps even more so than over the supposed First Amendment's guarantee of Freedom of Speech), believe that the Second Amendment is the only thing standing between a ravenous power-grabbing over-reaching government exerting it's never quite satiated hunger (and do you care if it happens to be labeled facists, communists, right-wingers, libs, dems, or whatever if they enslave you?) and the common citizenry.

And while I am very much wishing that nuts and guns can be kept FAR apart, that is not really where many 'control' schemes begin and end. This guy was picked up for stalking twice (charges not pressed), institutionalized (albeit briefly) and deemed a threat to himself and others. His parents KNEW he was odd and worried as early as six years old about his lack of socialization and communication and yet no intervention was done (or at least effective.) A clutch of maybe ten of the adults most knowledgeable of him also recently judged him a danger, and many raised the concern and evidence to the authorities. If that was all documented, and a preordained legal threshold breached, lock him up and/or take away right to own guns, of course!

But the conversation is not even started before I read the usual red herrings (which often change to pink, blue or yellow herrings), i.e. "the guns he was able to just go buy at a local store were pricey, powerful, accurate, precise..." Hmm. So which of those descriptors tells us about the issue needing to be addressed? Because if it was a revolver, I often hear from the same sources about the opposite: "cheap, inaccurate, throw away guns, with no purpose but to kill." So they would never be pleased no matter what the state of the hardware, i.e. this gent used handguns. and yet, the rhetoric about 'assault weapons' is simmering again...

Guns are to kill. All this talk about target shooting and hunting is fine. But I hate it when people use it as a ruse. I am not a hunter, but I have shot some holes in targets, and found it very relaxing. But that is not why I, or a majority of people, own firearms.

I do not wish to kill anyone anywhere. I do not wish to overthrow the government. I am not a right wing nut. I do not belong to the NRA. But I firmly believe, with every fibre of my being that once the broad citizenry are disarmed, friendly smiling people like AG Gonzalez will be needing more and more of our voluntary forbearance for just a tiny bit more information... just a tiny more restriction... just a tiny bit less information coming our way... just a bit more control over our lives... you know, to keep the terrorists from winning, 'n all... and while we boil slowly in our pot, the utter futility of resisting will be made obvious because there simply is no alternative to (at the end of hopefully a very long road) express our desire to re-assert our rights and freedoms by the ultimate means, if required.

At the end of the day, I believe hippies and right wingers alike need to ask themselves: "Do you trust an unfettered government to benignly provide for you, in perpetuity, even if we have lost all means of defense?"

Maybe gun owners jump too quickly to that ultimate, terrible, almost unthinkable eventuality. Maybe they do. But you do know the old saw about how to boil a frog.... turn up the heat so slowly they barely notice the change.
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia
Old 04-20-2007, 09:17 PM   #8
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia

Thank you, drip guy, you reafirmed my conviction that we can have differing views on the issue of gun control and yet reason through it and understand the valid concerns of all who hold a stake.

I begin with the US Constitution, having sworn to defend it when I first entered the military. The 2nd Amendment asserts our right to bear arms, so that should end any discussion of arms confiscation, a red herring that is not relevant to the discussion. The 2nd Amendment also contains the clause about a well regulated militia. Granted, there are differing legal interpretations, but perhaps we should all agree that our founding fathers were sensitive to the need for law and order with respect to firearms.

So, if we have a right to bear arms, what are our responsibilities? Every right has a corresponding responsibility, and firearms are no exception -- because of their deadly force, responsibility is even more paramount. I maintain that every gunowner has the responsibiilty to remain well trained in its use, its maintenance, and its security. I personally believe that's what the constitution referred to, providing for rapid recruitment of a militia that could be well regulated without the need for quick arming and ad hoc training.

If gunowners are to remain well trained and maintain a secure arsenal, I also maintain that this incurs the burden of relieving those who fail to abide by certain rules of their firearms, or keeping those who can't be well trained from acquiring them. Individuals with serious mental problems should never be allowed to have firearms, neither should those who have been proven to have violated criminal felony statutes. And someone who does own a firearm and is later shown to be a criminal or to have lost their mental capacity should be relieved of the right to a weapon by way of having the capacity to be well regulated.

This is a far cry from a war cry to relieve Americans of weapons. And IMHO it provides the correct Constitutional framework for owning and operating firearms. No sportsman wanting to pursue the shooting sport should feel threatened. Nor should any homeowner wishing to protect their family. Who should feel threated are the criminals, the mentally ill, and all those who would use firearms not to protect us but to undermine our civil society.

Can this happen overnight or remove handguns from nutcases? Of course not. But over time it would become harder for those elements to have guns. As as analogy, operation of a motor vehicle is licensed. That doesn't keep unlicensed from operating a motor vehicle, but it makes it difficult for someone without a license to buy or rent a car. Sure, they can steal one or buy one by lying, but in fact there are very few unlicensed drivers on the road as a percentage of total drivers. I would love to see firearm ownership reach the same levels.
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia
Old 04-20-2007, 09:30 PM   #9
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoonToRetire
You know, I sit here scratching my head about this gun control issue. I realize this is a hot button for many, and that's fine, but I find it interesting how the words "gun control" automatically generate such reactions, as if a police state is here to confiscate everyone's guns.
Maybe a way to gain some insight would be to change the words from "Gun Control" to "Abortion Controls" Like this:
I realize this is a hot button for many, and that is fine, but I find it interesting how the words "Abortion Controls" automatically generate such reactions, as if a police state is here to talke away a woman's right to an abortion.

Think about the reactions to the recent Supream Court desision about Abortion.

Part of the reaction is the "Slipery Slope" fear.
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia
Old 04-20-2007, 09:46 PM   #10
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia

Nice points STR and dex.

As dex says, if so many (and I guess I include myself) were not so worried about the 'slippery slope', and also effectiveness, then I would be very much inclined to look to law to help us out here. I saw the shocking pictures of the VT gunman, and in one he had a hammer, and another he had a knife. The gun may have facilitated the degree of carnage, but something tells me this guy was determined to do something evil one way or the other. I'm not sure additional gun regs, of any sort, would have kept him from it.

Edited to add -- nor the other nut from just today, at the space center -- surely he was 'breaking the law' today to bring a firearm into a federal facility...
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia
Old 04-20-2007, 10:09 PM   #11
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia

Soon--The Bill of Rights does guarantee the right to bear arms, so the probability of the government coming to take away the firearms is probably remote. With that said, the government could conceivably restrict the purchase of firearms to the point they are essentially impossible to buy. This would in effect remove firearms form the hands of lawful owners. I think that is the more probable route than teh government coming to my house and taking my firearms away.
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia
Old 04-20-2007, 10:39 PM   #12
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia

Dex, if the words "gun control" are equivalent to "abortion control" I suppose there is a lot of baggage that naturally arises, and I should be more sensitive to that. I've explained what I mean by gun control, and perhaps I should have used other words but not sure any two words would tell the story. I used enlightened laws before and that didn't do it... maybe gun responsibility?

let's retire (and dex) I can't conceive of laws that would become so stringent as to make gun ownership nearly impossible. If that were to happen, the 2nd amendment would be so violated that the Supreme Court would be completely ineffective, and we would have a lot of other problems.

My ideal would be a gun license similar to auto licensing, along with gun registration, or even bullet identification, which can be accomplished with modern technology. A sportsman or any law abiding citizen should have no problem with that, in fact, they should welcome it as a way of elevating the handling and ownership of guns to a professional level. I was an expert marksman in the military and was pretty proud of that. I thought I could take care of a weapon and hit my mark even with lots of things going on around me. It makes me sick to think of some good for nothing punk being able to buy a gun with almost no verification and acting out their sick little aggressions. I live close to DC and there are parts of our nation's capital I will not go into at night. If I packed a gun I think I could handle myself in a fair fight against these hoods but the best marksman doesn't do well with a bullet in the back. Or sitting in a classroom trying to get an education. Or sitting in an office at work.

Let's keep guns in the hands of rightful owners, but let's make it hard as hell for the irresponsible, the insane, the gutter punks to use guns as a substitute for the manhood (or womanhood) they lack.
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia
Old 04-20-2007, 11:00 PM   #13
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoonToRetire
Again, when I say gun control I mean taking steps to lessen the opportunity for the mentally deranged, the hoodlums, the terrorists, to get their hands on a handgun or military weapons and kill innocent Americans. I never thought this would be a controlversial subject. Background checks for criminal records, for mental problems, etc. I guess I'm pretty naive to think this is consistent with the 2nd amendment well regulated militia clause.
I have no problem with making it a bit harder to buy a gun... but it should be combined with a REAL background search that is funded by the state.... they can fund it with taxes on guns and ammo...

From what I hear, the background check is a joke... so the controls are almost worthless...

And what is up with 'assult weapons'... defining some as not fit to own... ANY gun can kill... and as the people in Virginia found out, a GLOCK seems to be accurate but is not on the list...

The one problem I have is that we can count the number of mass killings over the last.... lets say decade... with our fingers... the number of people who protected themselves with a gun is probably in the thousands if not the 10s of thousands..
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia
Old 04-21-2007, 03:07 AM   #14
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia

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Originally Posted by Texas Proud
The one problem I have is that we can count the number of mass killings over the last.... lets say decade... with our fingers... the number of people who protected themselves with a gun is probably in the thousands if not the 10s of thousands..
Yes, IIRC for every time someone defends themselves with a gun, there are eight incidents where people are either injured accidentally. I can think of my ex-girlfriend's sister shooting her finger tip off and a friend's boyfriend shooting his leg. I can also think of a suicide of a niece, a grandfather, and uncle as well as two brothers of a friend. I am also reminded that the guy across the street from my parents decided to shoot it out with the police (he was mentally ill). I also remember a friend's son getting in an argument with his roommate and getting shot to death.

I am not against owning guns. Americans love guns. Stopping the ownership of guns would be as effective as the war on drugs but it is all about trade offs and risks, just like paying off the mortgage on your house.
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia
Old 04-21-2007, 03:25 AM   #15
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia

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Originally Posted by lets-retire
Soon--The Bill of Rights does guarantee the right to bear arms, so the probability of the government coming to take away the firearms is probably remote. With that said, the government could conceivably restrict the purchase of firearms to the point they are essentially impossible to buy. This would in effect remove firearms form the hands of lawful owners. I think that is the more probable route than teh government coming to my house and taking my firearms away.
I would argue that the Second Amendment has not been interpreted by the courts to allow individuals to own guns. However, I realize that there are six different ways of interpreting the amendment. My belief is that that the court have, in the few chances they have rules on the second amendment, allowed the government to pass laws that limit the carry of firearm (e.g., not allowing convicts to own guns). I think that in theory that the government could pass laws outlawing guns but I also believe that the government usually listens to the American people and a majority of American people want to continue to own guns.
For more se http://www.guncite.com/journals/embar.html

I agree with SoonToRetire that reactions to Gun Control are the flip side of reactions to Abortion control. I would also postulate that states with loose gun rules have stricter abortion rules and vice versa.
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia
Old 04-21-2007, 06:15 AM   #16
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia

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I think that NRA has conditioned people so that any sort of gun control is the work of the devil. Look at Jim Zumbo who didn't approve of hunting prairie dogs with automatic weapons. An outdoor columnist and hunter, he made the mistake of questioning the NRA and is out of a column, job and TV show. That will teach him for thinking for himself.
You are missing the point. I didn't need the NRA to tell me to write Zumbo's sponsors to tell them to fire him. Zumbo called certain weapons "terrorist weapons" and associated people who shoot them with terrorist. It was ignorant, and it spit in the face of the people that paid his salary. I'm sure you're familiar of the phrase "don't sh!t where you eat" well that is exactly what he did and he got what he deserved which was a reputation of 30+ year ruined in one night

As for gun control. As a conservative when I hear that I feel the same way a liberal does when they here "free speech zones" "president George W Bush" etc.

If it weren't for the political greed of the left there might actually be more gun control. The problem is that in their minds there is never enough "common sense" gun control. First it's one step, then once we have that, ban something else, make another law and on and on. I'm thankful they have been so greedy, hopefully nobody will want to touch it now.

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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia
Old 04-21-2007, 06:40 AM   #17
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia

Easy does it there guys! We seem to be playing out our expected parts, rather than thinking anew.

Do I want confiscation? H*** no.

Do I want whack jobs picking up a gun and 50 rounds "to-go" at a Virginia Wal Mart, no waiting, perhaps on their way to a guaranteed unarmed dorm full of sheep? Um, no.

I think we need to look at these cases and always ask: "Where could the chain have been interrupted?" Usually, different or stronger gun control law does NOT seem to be the answer. I'd say that is the case for 95-99% of the cases.

However, as to this particular nutjob, I just read even more this AM about how his uncles and other relatives thought he was a sicko from way back, and needed intervention. He had a proper mental health authority determine he was a danger to himself and others.

So, can we at least agree that if this information in link below is correct, then Virginia needs to get their stuff together -- This guy should have never had a gun!

http://www.raddr-pages.com/forums/vi...410&highlight=


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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia
Old 04-21-2007, 07:59 AM   #18
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia

One of the biggest problems I see is the determination of mental health by a court. In Florida they have the Meyers Act, where if someone is a harm to themselves or others, due to a mental issue, they can be taken into custody and dropped off at a hospital with a secured mental health ward. The big problem is there is no mark on their public "criminal" history, so the typical back ground check will not turn up the issue. The state views it as a health issue not a criminal issue, so it falls under the health privacy laws. In very extreme circumstances the doctor will input that the person is mentally ill, but for most nothing is input into the system and the person is free to purchase whatever they want.
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia
Old 04-21-2007, 08:29 AM   #19
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia

Beware the law of unintended consequences as we go down the road of culling out the whack jobs. Many here will be familiar with the problems caused by the "Lautenberg Amendment." The legislation prohibits the possession, shipping, etc of firearms by anyone who has been convicted of a domestic violence misdemeanor. The individual who allows the person to purchase/have the firearm is also guilty of a felony. All this sounds good and common sense: People who have beat up their spouse have shown a predisposition to violence and should not have a gun. There's perhaps a minor concern over just what constitutes domestic violence (you could be in trouble in some jurisdictions for administering a mild old-fashioned spanking to a child). The bigger problem is that the law is keeping some women and children in violent families. Ther es no exception for militayr serrvicemembers, ad nearly everyone n the miltary has access to a gun. So, if a soldier is convicted of a domestic violence charge, he/she will likely be separated from the service. His spouse knows this, and knows that if she reports any domestic violence, the paycheck she and the kids counts on will stop. More importantly, if the servicemember doesn't reach retirement, she'll get nothing by way of a pension. If she can just hold on and he doesn't kill her before he reaches 20 years of service . . things will be okay. So, she doesn't report it and the abuse goes on. Obviously, that's no way to live.

I'm in favor of restrictions that get guns out of the hands of whackos, but to be effective they will have to be very carefully crafted. And reporting will obviously have to improve.

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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia
Old 04-21-2007, 08:45 AM   #20
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Re: Another member of the well regulated militia

As we've seen, this is a complex issue that generates a lot of opinion, and is best discussed with facts at hand. One fact is that places that have passed gun control laws (ie DC) have seen large increases in gun homicide rates, whereas places that have passed right to carry laws (ie Florida) have seen large decreases in handgun homicide rates.

This argues for gun ownership, but it has to be taken in the context of their already wide and easy availability. In DC, guns flow easily from Virginia and Maryland. Gun control laws are primarily followed by law abiding citizens, making the gun a better tool for the criminal, since they are more likely to go against an unarmed citizen. In Florida we have the opposite effect, a criminal already packing a gun is less likely to use it because he might be facing another armed person.

I suggest the lesson from these kinds of statistics is to allow responsible law abiding citizens to carry guns and make it more difficult for the rest to obtain them. You can call this gun control, gun licensing, gun traceability, etc. It's similar to medicines -- a person who is ill can get an antibiotic but only with a doctor's screening. A person who is not ill can still get the antibiotic but it is much more difficult for them. No many argue that medical licensing of antibiotics is going to take them off the market. Just the opposite, those antibiotics that work well become more popular and more widely available. Bad medicines, on the other hand, are quickly withdrawn.

With proper gun licensing it may be that we evolve into a nation that follows the 2nd amendment more faithfully and with a better sense of the responsibilities that gun ownership carries -- while hoodlums brandishing illegal weapons may eventually accept that it's not worth it, not just for the hassle of getting them but because they are no longer an effective tool for them. And some weapons, such as assault rifles, may go the same way as bad drugs.
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