Another PITA bank issue

[Texas Proud]

*Boggle*

How can that be? I own my own business, and I certainly don't just blindly deposit any checks that come my way. Every payment is associated with a client account, and without properly processing the check, the client's account doesn't get credited. Morever, many of the payments are for invoices, and have an associated entry in my Accounts Receivable spreadsheet. Finally, every payment has a receipt generated for it. Wouldn't a business notice it was generating a receipt for a client it has no business relationship with?

I'm not buying this excuse. It doesn't make any sense.

Firms use bank lockbox services to handle their checks... all checks that are delivered to that lockbox are deposited and a record is made of it that is sent to the company... the check can be processed and deposited without any human eye looking at the check... so there is no way to check if there is an invoice associated with it....

Now that the check was processed, the data goes to the company to match up with their AR... if there is no match, the money is put in a suspense account for someone to look at later... if they have a lot of these, it could take weeks for them to figure out what to do with the money....

I would say the other problem is that since it was sent by the bank and did not have the OPs name and address at the top, they might have applied the funds to something that was similar... or, they might not know how to return the funds.... IOW, they need to send it back to the bank but do not have any info on the individual who started the process.... SO, a check could have been cut sending the funds back to the OPs banks without his name on it and it is in his banks suspense account....

Many possibilities of errors without some criminal process happening....

 

[skipro3]

I quit using checks as much as possible including the electronic kind. Rarely I do need to write one. Recently I wrote one for a painter who painted my home. He went to my credit union and tried to cash it. The check was completely legitimate. However, my credit union tried to call me and when they couldn't reach me right away, left me a phone message and refused to cash the check. The painter was unhappy and tried to call me and left a voice message of his own. I called the credit union and asked them how they could have NOT cashed a perfectly legal check made out to a specific individual who had ID on him? They told me that the check represented an unusual use of my account and that they could delay the cashing for 24 hours. If the painter had tried to deposit it, no problems as the funds could always be reversed if found to be a fraud check.

I do my best to auto pay via my credit card or from an on-line web site where I can control the transaction. With the credit card, I'm only liable for $50 for fraud.

In your case, if it had been me, I would have immediately paid the late payment along with late fee, then submit a request for a refund of the late fee due to circumstances. That way fees don't keep accumulating.

I would also recommend some other method of paying, such as an EFT directly from your account to their account. I do that with my electric bill with a cap set of $200. (since my electric bill is never more than $100)

 

[Koolau]

Fortunately, these things do not seem to happen too often. Since it is so rare, it's amazing to me when the players (in this case, the mgmt. co., etc.) attempt to place all the blame/work on the "wronged" individual. We had a CC bill forwarded late to our mainland address. We called the CC Co. who dropped the late fees. We pointed out that we were NEVER late and always paid in full. They agreed.

But when I don't get cooperation (in MichaelB's case - I would consider the Mgmt. Co. most at fault for insisting on late fees) I make certain to cost someone at least 10 times what it costs me. It's easy to do, simply by going up the chain on the phone or in person if possible. I'll spend my free time making them spend their expensive employee time working on the issue while I wait.

I like Lakewood 90712's solution. Sic the police on the bank (or maybe even the mgmt. co. - Who knows? Maybe the mgmt. co. misdirected the check).

MichaelB, since your HOA uses a mgmt. co, I would suggest you take this up with your HOA board. They should be able to put pressure on the Mgmt. co. Mgmt. co.s are a dime a dozen and can be replaced by dissatisfied HOA boards. I saw it happen with my previous condo HOA. Folks became dissatisfied with the Mgmt. co. and the board dropped them like a stoner drops advanced calculus. I think your point is well taken that us ERs (theoretically) have the time to deal with this cr@p. But what do w*rking folks do? Heaven help those with decreased mental functions or without help from relatives or friends. I've heard horror stories of folks losing homes, etc. because of simple mistakes (or outright fraud) that they were unable to handle. Good luck!

 

[Gotadimple]

I would also recommend some other method of paying, such as an EFT directly from your account to their account. I do that with my electric bill with a cap set of $200. (since my electric bill is never more than $100)

All good points,except:
If the payee doesn't accept electronic funds, the bank will write a check and mail it. Some associations don't accept ETF because their bank charges them to accept the funds.

 

[Texas Proud]

I think someone for LE can chime in here in case I am wrong....

For the people who say 'get the police involved'.... for what So far there is no evidence there was a crime involved.... until you know who got the money, why and how, all it is is a mistaken deposit that is a civil matter...

The OPs bank has done nothing criminal... the mgmt company has done nothing criminal... and as I have pointed out a few times, even the entity who has the money might not have done anything criminal....


I will give a worse example than this... my sister had a contractor who did a lot of work on her house... one of the last things she did was pay for a granite counter top for her bathroom... the guy decided to leave and moved to Florida with her money.... the LEO said this was a civil contractual matter...

 

[Grainiac]

*Boggle*

How can that be? I own my own business, and I certainly don't just blindly deposit any checks that come my way. Every payment is associated with a client account, and without properly processing the check, the client's account doesn't get credited. Morever, many of the payments are for invoices, and have an associated entry in my Accounts Receivable spreadsheet. Finally, every payment has a receipt generated for it. Wouldn't a business notice it was generating a receipt for a client it has no business relationship with?

I'm not buying this excuse. It doesn't make any sense.

Here is an example of how some small businesses do not follow your best practices:
A month or two ago I got a late bill with late fee from an appliance repair guy who fixed our refrigerator almost two years ago. The attached letter claimed they never received a payment. I went to quicken and after finding the check number there went to my online bank account and found a scan of check that showed that I had paid online pretty much the same day we received the bill and my bank had mailed out a physical check to this small company, and the company had cashed my check.

I called the company and after a short discussion with their accountant we realized what had likely happened. DW had called the repair guy, so the bill from them had her name on it. DW and I have different last names. While our physical checkbook has both of our names on every check, for some reason the checks that the bank prints out and mails only have the first person's name on them (mine), so the receiving accountant could not make the name connection. Lastly, when entering the billpay info I had ignored to include the invoice number (nor was that requested in the invoice). In any case, the company had no easy way to make a connection between the check and client, but it had not prevented them from depositing the check as soon as they received it. Small companies are often short of cash and I imagine they just go ahead and deposit all the legit looking checks as soon as they arrive and worry about the accounting details later.

 

[skipro3]

All good points,except:
If the payee doesn't accept electronic funds, the bank will write a check and mail it. Some associations don't accept ETF because their bank charges them to accept the funds.

I wonder why a bank would charge for an EFT? They'll do it once they get the paper check; EFT the funds from the account to the bank. This would cut out the 'middle man' and expedite the payment to the receiving bank.

Heck, these days you can make payments or transfer money via e-mail and deposits via taking a photo of the check with your smart phone.

Many times I pay for things via PayPal and receive payments via PayPal. When I get a payment, I can then go into PayPal and have them transfer that payment to my credit union. Easy=peasy.

 

[Rustward]

Occasionally I will receive a late notice for a bill that has already been paid (endorsed and deposited check visible in the online checking account). This happened several times for medical bills (usually something like $10.00 or $12.15 or whatever). When I called the explanation I got was that deposits were done every day but posting of payments was done once a week, creating a window of up to 7 days between deposit and posting.

Not saying this is a good practice, but that is how this one billing office handles their business.

 

[Lakewood90712]

Technically , embezelment was commited by the depositor , likely without intent , and the OP is the victim.

The police are not going to put Kojac on the case, and nobody is going to be charged. The OP's bank has done nothing criminal, however, they will have to cough up answers of who the item was paid to.

Bank's usually understaff operations departments, who have the people to unravel this kind of mess. They will usually put this kind of thing on the back burner, until a detective from a law enforcement agency (an irritant)calls. An irritant will usually get a big beast or bank in motion.

 

[Gotadimple]

I wonder why a bank would charge for an EFT? They'll do it once they get the paper check; EFT the funds from the account to the bank. This would cut out the 'middle man' and expedite the payment to the receiving bank.

Heck, these days you can make payments or transfer money via e-mail and deposits via taking a photo of the check with your smart phone.

Many times I pay for things via PayPal and receive payments via PayPal. When I get a payment, I can then go into PayPal and have them transfer that payment to my credit union. Easy=peasy.

The money in banking is not in the personal account, it is in the commercial account. So EFTs are a money-making transaction for a bank that lets it send your EFT free. There are still costs to EFT, the banks must maintain their systems and adhere to the interbank rules, and audits.

The HOA doesn't have a personal account, they have a commercial one and as such are subject to fees you don't have to pay.

-- Rita

 

[pb4uski]

I had a PITA bank issue today - albeit different. My mom has a checking account where she is the primary owner and my sister was added as a secondary owner a number of years ago. We walked into the bank together today and mom just wanted to add me as an additional signer so I can write and sign checks on that account if needed when mom is away.

It should have been as easy as adding me as additional signatory to the account.

But not for this idiot bank. They insisted that we essentially do the same paperwork as if we walked in with no relationship with them and wanted to open an account with all three of our names on the account. So mom needs to resign the paperwork (which is a hassle because she has difficulty signing her name other than in the morning) and we need to send it to my sister halfway across the country, have her sign the forms and then send them back to the bank.

If it weren't for the fact that mom likes these idiots and has done business with them for years I would have suggested that if we needed to totally redo the paperwork that she should just move her account to another bank.

I now understand why people hate banks. They have an appalling lack of common sense.

 

[Brat]

I am not a fan of multiple co-owners on a senior's bank account. Do you want me to list some of the potential problems?

Sister/you dies, heirs claim an interest in the account;
Sister/you gets divorced, divorced spouse claims the account as assetts in the resolution;
Sister/you is sued, plaintiff leans the account.
I could go on and on...

Can't you just set up multiple authorized signatures?

 

[Onward]

Sorry for the ignorance, but what's the difference between being an account co-owner and an additional signer?

 

[imoldernu]

The subject of money movement is a growing problem. Amazing that it is not worse than it is, considering the complexity.

The scope of the problem extends far beyond personal banking, and is exacerbated by the division of responsibility within larger organizations. While not exactly the same problem, we had a similar disturbing situation last year. It involved our nursing home insurance. We have paid in, since 1953, a total of about $50,000 (today's dollars). The original company declared bankruptcy and the the policy subsequently went through two more ownerships.
The original policy was written as a single policy with both of our names, same policy number with DW having an "A" designation after her ID. For nineteen years we have sent our payment for both ($2500) to the company in May.
Last year, on the first of July, we received a letter from the insurance company, stating that my wife's policy had been cancelled for non payment.

ASIDE: we have a reasonable expectation because of health, and genes and family history, that a Nursing Home may be a future possibility. ($90,000/yr. here in Il.) Nursing Home Insurance is part of our retirement plan safety net, and we're getting near that time... age 76.

Because the check had been in my name, the entire amount had been applied to my account, even though it was the exact same process (one check) that we had used for the previous 18 years. My account was paid ahead, her account was unpaid.

Three months later, with countless phone calls and letters... and finally letters to the Attorneys General of Illinois and Pennsylvania, it was straightened out. (maybe a few months off our life because of the angst).

One good thing. The insurance company has instituted a new policy of adding a grace period with three different named notification contacts being made when a policy payment date is passed. Considering the probable age and health of the contract owners this will be a help.

Yes... I know this may be off topic, but it exemplifies the far reaching consequences inherent in the movement of money in seemingly simple transactions.

Michael... I hope this works out for you... None of us needs that rise in blood pressure... 'specially when we try to do things the right way.

 

[pb4uski]

I am not a fan of multiple co-owners on a senior's bank account. Do you want me to list some of the potential problems?

Sister/you dies, heirs claim an interest in the account;
Sister/you gets divorced, divorced spouse claims the account as assetts in the resolution;
Sister/you is sued, plaintiff leans the account.
I could go on and on...

Can't you just set up multiple authorized signatures?

That is what we were trying to do, but it seems that they view someone authorized to make deposits and sign checks as being a "co-owner". Mom is the primary owner (any interest will be reported to the IRS under her TIN) and sis and I are secondary owners and can sign checks, etc.

While I understand your concerns, the amount involved isn't all that significant that we would be concerned.

 

[scrabbler1]

Pb4uski, I had a similar PITA incident at a bank a few years ago. My dad wanted to add me as an authorized user of his safe-deposit box. He doesn't keep any valuables in there but he has some important documents such as estate documents (which I have a copy of anyway) and other related things I do not necessarily have a copy of.

We went to the bank and the rep saw that he no longer had an account there, just the SD box. This was because back in the 1980s or early 1990s (before my mom died) she closed the account when the bank was owned by a different entity but kept the SD box open. She, and later my dad, paid the annual fee and nobody said or did anything. The rep told us that in order to add an authorized user he would have to close the current SD box and apply for a new one, subject to the new rule that he have an account there. He did not want to do that so we walked out, hoping that the nonplussed rep would not blow the whistle on him and force him to open an account anyway just to keep the box (that did not happen).

I suggested that he simply open a SD box at his own bank (which is across the street from this bank) then add me as an authorized user. He might have done it, I am not sure. I more or less forgot about following up on it (but will ask him about it). If he did switch banks but just needs to add me then that should be easy. Or he just did nothing and we still have the same problem as we did 4 years ago.

 

[MichaelB]

Update

My guess is another month, one more late fee, 3 more emails / letters each to the HOA and bank to get this resolved.

Said that in my original post, and it looks like I was wrong. A month has gone by, the only change is two more late fees. I sent a notarized affidavit of fraud to the bank, the HOA hasn't sent theirs yet. Three more emails to the HOA and one call each to the HOA and bank. We haven't made it to Keystone Cops or Marx Brothers level yet but we certainly are at the Laurel and Hardy stage. The HOA manager assigned to the property retired on Friday. Looks like he never read the threads here about leaving with a good rep and not burning bridges.

 

[rothlev]

A lonng time ago, my son was working a part time summer job. His small paycheck was deposited in the ATM machine. Several weeks later we received a letter from the bank subtracting the deposit from his balance stating that the envelope was empty. A trip to the employer provided proof ( the cancelled check) that the check had indeed been cashed by BOA. Even with the proof of their cashing the check, they (BoA) refused to recredit my son's bank account. Since it was a small check it wasn't a hardship for us, and eventually ( like 2 months later) they gave my son his money. But what if this check had belonged to someone working paycheck to paycheck?

 

[Sue J]

Our 28 year old son just had an ATM cash issue resolved with his bank. It took about 3-4 days. He went to the ATM to withdraw cash and the ATM gave him an error message instead of the cash. It was a Sunday morning so the bank was closed. He called the customer service number posted on the ATM but no one answers on a Sunday.

Online it showed that the cash was withdrawn so on Monday he called and they told him to download a form, fill it out and drop it off at the branch, which he did. The money was returned to his account a few days later. Luckily, he keeps plenty in his checking account but this would have been a big PITA if he lived on the edge.

All they needed to do was verify that the cash was still in the ATM and was not dispensed. I wonder how many other customers had the same thing happen.

 

[Koolau]

All these experiences confirm my suspicions that banks (and other institutions) don't really care about their small customers. If their computer says something, then that is what they go by. You have to prove otherwise, even if it is monumental PITA. Personally, I would consider a trip to small claims court next time and let THEM prove they don't owe ME. I have the time and it might be a fun diversion. Anyone have experience in this tactic?

 

[deserat]

If this was my problem , at this point I would go to the lobby of your bank, call the police and file a crime report at the bank. Banks dont like this kind of thing. When the police arrive at the your bank, your bank will now have to spend a lot of time on this, bank internal security , postal inspectors etc. Now a real p.i.t.a. for the 2 banks. They might just credit your account in short order to make it go away.

Maybe this is like killing a bug with a cruse missle , but it should quickly get the attention of both banks.

Thanks for the laugh - loved this - I could imagine the hullabaloo - and it might be satisfying

As for the bank and HOA - wow - what a hassle for ensuring burden of proof - and the bank that received the check should be on the hook as well for not properly ensuring that who cashed it was the intended recipient. Maybe they need the police in the lobby treatment, too.

 

[MichaelB]

Update

Good thing I'm retired and have time for this. The bank (aka WF) refunded my check yesterday without comment or notification. They did not reimburse the late fees as they promised. Why am I not surprised?

A lengthy phone call with a service rep and then a floor supervisor did not end on a positive note. That could be because the supervisor used the term "alleged' and then "you say " when I summed the discussion with the initial investigator (we discussed the dates and late fee in detail). It might also be when she asked for proof the late fee reimbursement was offered. But there was no doubt once she asked for the date, time of day and name of the service rep with whom I spoke so she could go back and check the tapes. She confirmed they had all that information in the file, but unless I gave it they would take no further action and considered the case closed and resolved.

Time for a new bank.

On a more positive note, the property manager is taking the case to the HOA on monday, requesting they waive the late fees. We'll see what happens, but she is new, friendly, and taking her job seriously, so i expect a positive outcome.

 

[copyright1997reloaded]

Another data point about WF: Wells is one of the few banks I've ever had to fire. I had a world savings cd that became a Wachovia cd that became a wells cd. Anyway, I also had a checking account with minimal $, tied to the cd (which was required to have the special rate cd). After WF took over, I no longer got any statements showing the cd value.

After many months of trying, numerous calls, many people telling me it was fixed, it never was. After it matured, I fired them and moved the money elsewhere.

 

[Alan]

Thanks for the update Michael - good luck.

 

[GrayHare]

I've also found WF to be confused. Tried numerous times to open a WellsTrade account but they kept screwing up my application form (losing it, folding it, spindling it, multilating it, something new each time).

It made me wonder why Buffett heavily invested into WF, but then I realized it may actually fit his philosophy: a company that generates a profit even though inept must have an excellent moat somewhere!