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Old 09-17-2014, 01:58 PM   #61
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I am having a hard time understanding people suggesting filing a restraining order before ever even inviting the parents over for coffee and trying to reach a peaceful solution. The parents may be helpful or not, but if they are helpful and concerned that might solve the problem right then and there without making enemies or incurring legal fees. There may also be another side to the situation to hear about as well.
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Old 09-17-2014, 02:21 PM   #62
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I agree that a lot has changed in bullying since I was young . Now the bullies can continue the torments online . I would do whatever I had to to stop it . Your DD is still really young if she was older I would agree with her handling it but not at her age .
Agree. She would feel that she is being abandoned.

I was never bullied, though I was never larger or tougher than most other boys. What I did have was a resolve to go after anyone who was bothering me, with anything I could come up with. I was great at self justification, OK, this pr*** harassed me or embarrassed me, so now how can I make him suffer considerably more? If he was older or from a rougher neighborhood, I allied myself with troops.

Speaking of quality responses to bullying (not by little girls) you guys have to go see The Drop. If you are like I am a fan of revenge movies, you'll love this one which is actually a higher class movie than the old time Charles Bronson ones.

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Old 09-17-2014, 03:16 PM   #63
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I agree that a lot has changed in bullying since I was young . Now the bullies can continue the torments online . I would do whatever I had to to stop it . Your DD is still really young if she was older I would agree with her handling it but not at her age .

Online and through phones is where it is at now at the HS. Schools have done a decent job of draining the unruly testosterone from boys. Many probably wouldn't even know what you mean by "trash can or locker stuffing" along with "atomic wedgies". Though a lot of that was more along the lines of juvenile horseplay than bullying. Now the girls on the other hand.....they can be down right cruel!


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Old 09-17-2014, 03:26 PM   #64
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Now the girls on the other hand.....they can be down right cruel!
Yes indeed. I remember watching a "girl fight" after school and was surprised at the blood lust when those two went at each other. When guys fight, it's over when it's clear who won and who lost. Those two girls wanted to kill each other.
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Old 09-17-2014, 03:46 PM   #65
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Yes indeed. I remember watching a "girl fight" after school and was surprised at the blood lust when those two went at each other. When guys fight, it's over when it's clear who won and who lost. Those two girls wanted to kill each other.

That is true with the guys. I can't tell you how many problems were eliminated back in the day with the boys by just telling them to wait until after school and take it to the field across the street. They would do it, and then it was over. Of course that was a rural attitude and most parents when called would say just let them get it over with.


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Old 09-17-2014, 05:02 PM   #66
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I'm in the camp of letting your child resolve her own problems with bullying. That is within limits. If her physical safety is in danger that's a different story. You should though, give her all the tools and support to do it.
I understand the argument but -- particularly with small children -- I don't think they are equipped to handle it. And just leaving it to them -- even with support -- can be seen as abandonment and the parent not taking the issue seriously. Sure, if the child can easily and quickly resolve it herself and wants to, then that is fine.

But, persistent bullying over time is often something that a young child can't resolve. And, in some instances, even an older child or adolescent can't resolve. I have seen situations where the situation at a school is so toxic that the best thing for the child is to simply change school (just like some workplaces can be so bad that no amount of trying to fix it helps and the best solution is to move on).

I wanted my children to know that I would support them and would myself help them to get a just result. In one instance, things were bad enough (bullying was an issue but wasn't the only issue) that I pulled my 10 year old out of school, homeschooled him for the rest of the year and then put him in a private school the next year. I've never felt sorry that I did it. And, he at least knew that I was there for him and would do everything in my power to help him. It was way beyond something that he could handle on his own.
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Old 09-17-2014, 05:36 PM   #67
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Yes indeed. I remember watching a "girl fight" after school and was surprised at the blood lust when those two went at each other. When guys fight, it's over when it's clear who won and who lost. Those two girls wanted to kill each other.
Then get me a pink tutu. Whenever I fought, I was not looking to settle an argument or prove who was better. Consequently, after I settled things in the 3rd grade I was rarely physically pushed around. It wasn't that I was especially big or strong, it was that everyone knew I would bite, pull out handfulls of hair, reach for the nads and yank, etc.
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Old 09-17-2014, 05:40 PM   #68
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We have no intention of letting DD2 go it alone. This is beyond her ability to resolve. I am continuing to tighten the screws on the dean, and if this does not stop entirely pretty soon I will be having a sit down with the principal. Then I can contemplate a variety of other options. I am starting to like the idea of showing up to pick up the kids at the end of the school day wearing a sandwich board that says "<school name> Elementary has a problem with bullying that administration refuses to fix."

We are within spitting distance of Columbine high school. Everyone knows where this can lead and there are anti-bullying programs at all the local schools. Look how great that works...
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Old 09-17-2014, 05:58 PM   #69
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30 years ago, that would have worked. Today the kid who beat the bully's ass would get expelled and possibly a criminal charge. The world has changed.
+1.

I was a small kid but took care of my bullies with varying degree of physical force to their body . That worked 40 years ago when times were a bit simpler. A few decades later when my son reported being bullied, I told him to confront the bully (I think my wording was more like "do some physical damage to the motherless kid" but I can't be so sure now). My son got really serious and "told" me that's not the right way to address the situation. I don't recall how it was addressed but I was ready to jump in if things got worse.
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Old 09-17-2014, 06:13 PM   #70
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We have no intention of letting DD2 go it alone. This is beyond her ability to resolve. I am continuing to tighten the screws on the dean, and if this does not stop entirely pretty soon I will be having a sit down with the principal. Then I can contemplate a variety of other options. I am starting to like the idea of showing up to pick up the kids at the end of the school day wearing a sandwich board that says "<school name> Elementary has a problem with bullying that administration refuses to fix."

We are within spitting distance of Columbine high school. Everyone knows where this can lead and there are anti-bullying programs at all the local schools. Look how great that works...

The squeaky wheel gets the grease... Is this Dean a wimp or just disinterested? Eliminating bullying at HS level is a lot harder to deal with and catch but not at the elementary level if the Dean has a sack (gender neutral intent). It must be a little too much fun to go to the office there for the kids. Many states have implemented "anti bullying" laws. So even if as some people here mentioned the best way is for the kid to deal with it, that cannot be a legitimate response from the school.
Although back in the good old days, I had a legitimate bullying concern I could not crack. The 8th grader would not break, and absolutely no corroboration from anyone. Concerned parent came in and I told her to tell him to pop him and that would be the end of the bullying. She was concerned about it being on his permanent record. After I assured her discipline is never on a permanent record and no college is ever going to ask for an 8th grade discipline record so she went home and gave him the blessing. After he returned from his 3 day vacation, the kid never bothered him again.


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Old 09-17-2014, 06:58 PM   #71
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You may want to consider a martial arts class where they also teach self defense. DS who is very small, took karate at the Y for several years. The instructor taught emotional self control and channeling energy, as well as self defense. Built confidence too.

One thing he taught was that the best defense is not to be there. It pays also to have witnesses on your side.

He was bullied in class in 6th grade and he just walked out and sat in the auditorium until class was over. The teacher, who was about 6'3" and built like a bull, called us to tell us what happened. He was quite impressed with DS's quick thinking, and dealt with the 8th grade boys with the usual school type punishments-detentions and marks off their grade (it was band so should have been an easy A). Never happened again, in or out of class.

Bullying at the workplace has affected my career and has been part of the reason I worked very hard to RE. Being at a different hospital to help our group out of a bad situation gets me short term good pay and benefits. And no bullying!

Competent people (kids and adults) are frequent targets of bullies. And be careful of "letting them work it out themselves" with kids. Kids do commit suicide and even homicide sometimes as a result of bullying. It 's happened in our community more than once.

Good luck with your situation with DD2.




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Old 09-17-2014, 08:48 PM   #72
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Now the girls on the other hand.....they can be down right cruel!


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There's a Seinfeld episode where Jerry and George are discussing trying to beat a former bully at a race. Elaine is very interested in the fact that they were bullied... it comes out that she was a bully - but not physical. She said girls just teased the target "till they developed an eating disorder".

Girls are definitely meaner when they are the bullies.
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Old 09-17-2014, 09:02 PM   #73
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There's a Seinfeld episode where Jerry and George are discussing trying to beat a former bully at a race. Elaine is very interested in the fact that they were bullied... it comes out that she was a bully - but not physical. She said girls just teased the target "till they developed an eating disorder".



Girls are definitely meaner when they are the bullies.

The first week on the job at a new school word got back to us a girl wanted "kick another girls a$$". So we called her out of class to address the issue. The sheer honesty floored me.... She said yes she does and "she has it coming to her because she f@@ked my boyfriend on the first night she saw him and she is a who&e. I'm not a who&e because I waited a week until we did it." Way too much info there, but sometimes they just spill it out totally unedited... 90% of the girl bullying issues root source was over a boy.


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Old 09-17-2014, 09:10 PM   #74
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Some interesting reading in this thread. I was bullied in junior high and took to walking a different way home to avoid confrontation. I never told my parents or other adults. Then one day, the bullies caught me. I did not fight back and was not really hurt. Because I was such a wimp and did not fight back, I was never ever bothered again. Basically, it turned out that it was really no fun to bully me.

I guess i learned a lesson there and have not been intimidated by anyone since. I'm even trying to think of any other situation where as a kid or an adult I can say that I was builied. Right now, I can't think of any other instance, but maybe I am too stupid to understand if folks are trying to bully me?
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Old 09-17-2014, 09:33 PM   #75
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I tend to agree with Vince an W2R but I think it depends on how fragile the recipient of bullying is.

I was bullied from the 4th grade until the 6th grade (none of it was physical). It started right after my dad passed away. It was traumatic and my grades suffered greatly especially when I was in the 4th grade. I suffered from physical illnesses more too the first year. My family did nothing except to coach me as to what to say back to the girls in different situations. Strategy after the 4th grade was to ignore them all together and make friends with other rejects (mainly from other classes.) I was getting a hang of it by the 3rd year and by then there were a handful of girls who are more self aware and knew bullying wasn't cool and they tried to protect me. (It is hard to be those girls in those younger days - those girls are strong individuals with strong convictions). I remember mom asking me if I wanted to change school during these three years and my answer was no way. I wasn't going to have these bastards crush me. (And my thinking was it might follow me to the next school and then what?). I don't call myself a string person but maybe stubborn, and in addition I had enough backing on my side to try to convince myself that I was not at fault and these sorry asses had problems )which was very difficult to do because at that age you so want to be liked).

I am not minimizing the effect of bullying. I feel I am kind of scarred for life - when I see a bunch of women huddled together, there is no way I would go near them. I avoid any kind of parties that involve a bunch of women. I'd say they are up to no good in group settings. .




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Old 09-17-2014, 10:27 PM   #76
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People say fighting doesnt solve anything, but when I was about 10 I kept getting bullied by a big kid. He kept teasing me and flicking my ear (he sat behind me). One day I turned around and hit him square in the face with a book. He never did it again. So to those who say fighting solves nothing. I say, "you are wrong".

Now I wouldn't recommend for you daughter to do that. I don't have daughters so I am of no help to you. Sorry.
I agree.

If it were me I'd teach my kid to street fight, as in biting, punch in the throat, kick in the crotch, moves to end the fight quickly. I'd also sternly counsel him or her that fighting is best avoided and it has consequences- even if you 'win' you lose. (Punishment from authorities, it hurts your hands when you really deck some one, there will always be some one wanting to fight, etc.)

As a parent I'd document my attempt to get the school authorities to resolve the situation so when my kid decks the bully, I can say " you wouldn't deal with it, so my kid defended herself"
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Old 09-18-2014, 11:08 AM   #77
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Brewer,

My sympathies both for your and wife and DD2. Not feeling safe in your world, and not being able to fully protect your child has to be agonizing.

A couple of observations followed by a few suggestions:

1. The observation is that a distinct social tone or dynamics can develop within a classroom, for the worse when by random chance an ill-natured ring leader turns up who attracts like-minded often weak acolytes. Or, whats worse, a nucleus of two or three particularly nasty kids end up in the cohort who REALLY reinforce each other.

Unfortunately, its hard to escape for the kids will progress together grade by grade. This happened to a niece many years ago. The teachers agreed it was a particularly difficult combination of children, but that was of no solace to my niece who to this day remains somewhat impacted emotionally. So, yes, I would not leave it to your daughter to handle and appreciate you have no intentions of doing so.

2. I have a very petite daughter and so again, yes, some training in martial arts could be valuable particularly as she grows older. That said, I'm not sure its appropriate to apply in a classroom where she is not actually being attacked physically. Our story:

My daughter was best friends in kindergarten with another very petite child who had received extensive training in some form of Chinese martial arts. The girls frequently hugged each other throughout the day, sometimes dramatically falling to the ground. The father (who was, of all things, a child psychologist) of the other child took exception to their parting in this way at schools end and apparently told his DD to employ some defensive technique against my kid. The other little girl apparently was too intimidated by Dad to tell him that she *liked* their hugging. Fortunately the other mom vetoed the martial action but my kid really was shaken thinking she could have been "killed" by her friend for she'd seen her train. (Yes, that's a dramatic reaction, but she was only 5 yo.)

My point, of course, is that providing your child with a defensive weapon (training) to use against another child on school property could lead to all sorts of legal ramifications, particularly when a young child may not yet have the judgment to apply the proper degree of force and inadvertently seriously injure a school mate.

As for my petite DD, we changed from a private school a fairly rough public school in third grade and bullies descended. Suggestions:

1. I don't believe you've mentioned whether the school has multiple classes for each grade. Usually separation is the first choice, and is one I found that school was eager to agree to for it was a simple solution. But for my DD, there was only one primary culprit and so perhaps this isn't applicable for you.

2. DD was also bullied more generally by the rougher boys. This consisted of being pushed, shoved etc. Her solution (and it was solely her idea) was to grow a very strong nail. Push me, get poked. It was quick, subtle (did not attract a teacher's attention) and worked well.

3. Yes, girls can be more likely to verbally bully. Here DD was fortunate in that the socially strong potential ring leader (who could be difficult with some kids, particularly in later years as her home life grew more troubled) in her new class took a liking to DD. Still, I made sure that DD remained in her good graces by inviting her to restaurants, allowing visits to our home (although I would not permit DD to go to her home unchaperoned). Maybe it was bribery but hey ...

4. Was DD encouraged to herself join into socially inappropriate actions? Yes, in one case in particular when the most troubled child was trying to isolate another good friend of DD. DD's first "solution" was to seemingly go along with the bully but to simultaneously try to reassure her other friend that she was just pretending. Hmmmm? Here, a technique that I'll mention below really helped DD place herself in her friend's position and she rose to the challenge of NOT joining in. The good friend grew into a lovely young lady whose friendship is prized by my DD while the bully was eventually shuttled into a program for the emotionally disturbed - a fact I've often highlighted by saying "Gee, what if you'd given in? All those good times with M. never would have happened." From receiving positive reinforcement, DD learned not to give in to social pressure. She today critically evaluates the behavior of her peers.

5. As for handling verbal bullying? While that was not a primary issue for DD (if only due to luck with that potentially difficult social queen bee), a technique that I've always used with children, that is recommended for teachers, and that perhaps can be applied in this situation is Foster Cline's - to turn the situation back on to the instigator by framing your verbal response in the form of a question. It's remarkably effective for it surprises and even dumbfounds the listener.

Perhaps you or even a counselor could help your DD learn to use it; it's an approach that she could find helpful throughout her life. (Again, even though the book is written as *parenting* technique it can be applied from a different frame of reference.)

Parenting with Love and Logic: Teaching Children Responsibility - Kindle edition by Foster Cline, Jim Fay. Religion & Spirituality Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.

Best wishes. And yes, if all fails I'd get your kid out of the school.
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Old 09-18-2014, 11:37 AM   #78
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Brewer,

I just clicked on the link to the recommended book; a quick glance at Amazon doesn't really show how it can apply in this situation. Too, I don't know the nature of the exact bullying - but per my post:

1. If there's a quick shove in a line to go outside - my DD would not want to call attention to it by looking to the teacher, if only because she would then be perceived as weak and a tattle-tale. So yes - the nail. My DD's thumb nail was incredibly strong and filed to a sharp point. So the shove would be followed by her poke into his soft tummy or maybe across his hand or arm as he retracted it, followed by a nice "Sorry. I slipped." Yeah, sure the bully is no dummy but you want to retaliate then deescalate and not openly humiliate the bully.

2. If verbal. Kid1 - "You're really stupid?" DD2 - "Oh (quizzical tone) what makes you say that?" Kid2 "You play these idiotic games or whatever." Response "Yeah. Maybe so. So what is it you're into?" Cline could do it better, but again the idea like with the nail is to turn the tables BACK to the bully but done calmly, perhaps even with a tone of bemusement, so the bully doesn't get the satisfaction of provoking a distressed reaction. But is also at the same time *challenged* DD2 ends up with the last word or action.
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Old 09-18-2014, 03:14 PM   #79
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Well, the school has now refused to tell us which parents have been contacted, what punishments have been meted out (other than "consequences"), or anything else concrete. Looks like they have moved into full CYA mode. I am done playing nice. I will be meeting directly with the principal in the near future and I am starting to shop for a lawyer.
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Any advice on dealing with bullying in a school?
Old 09-18-2014, 03:55 PM   #80
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Any advice on dealing with bullying in a school?

Now that I think about it, my brother got an attorney because my nephew was bullied in high school. A group of girls tormented him, eventually it led to him leaving school. He was very depressed. They received a settlement on his behalf and his diploma from the school. They were successful, because the school had not intervened, despite repeated requests, and had not followed their own policies regarding bullying.


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