Any pilots here

[clifp]

I am curious when I was learning to fly they conventional wisdom was that pilots got in more trouble practicing spins and spin recovery, then they actually got in day to day flying with stable planes like C152 or C172. The FAA was recommending not teaching spin and spin recovery other than have the instructor demonstrate what it looked like.

My instructor wasn't a big fan of this approach. Is this still the case or has the FAA changed their recommendations now.

[Koolau]

Quote:

Originally Posted by clifp I am curious when I was learning to fly they conventional wisdom was that pilots got in more trouble practicing spins and spin recovery, then they actually got in day to day flying with stable planes like C152 or C172. The FAA was recommending not teaching spin and spin recovery other than have the instructor demonstrate what it looked like. My instructor wasn't a big fan of this approach. Is this still the case or has the FAA changed their recommendations now.

Took my training/check ride in early '70s. By that time, spins and recovery were no longer a requirement. I believe you are right that, due to the stability of "modern" aircraft, it was considered more risk than benefit to learn spins. Still, a 20+ year old kid wants to push the envelope. I actually learned spins after I got my PPC - not during normal training. I actually tried it on my own first, but chickened out. I got an instructor to show me how to do it and was then able to do it with only pink (not white) knuckles.

[CalTex]

I owned a real sweet 172 for about 10 years. Sold it about 10 years ago and still miss it. I loved every minute of flying, but it was seriously incompatible with LBYM mode in my case.

[samclem]

Quote:

Originally Posted by clifp Is this still the case or has the FAA changed their recommendations now.

There's now no requirement for students to practice spin recovery. You have to be able to describe the steps in spin recovery, but that's not the same (IMO) as doing them. I think students should learn to recover from a standard upright spin, but I'll admit that it's unlikely the typical GA pilot will ever be in a situation where it's useful unless he's practicing acro (in which case spins should >>definitely<< be practiced extensively). I'd guess the place a typical Sunday pilot is most likely to spin is on the turn to final, and there's no recovery technique that will make a difference at 300 feet.

Better that students learn to know when the plane is getting near the stall (control feel, airspeed in the crosscheck, the feel of the buffet, the blaring stall horn (if available).

If I ran the FAA, all new aircraft would have angle of attack (AoA) gauges and they'd be worked in to the fleet over time (maybe through discounts on insurance?). We talk about "stall speed" but (as you know) there's no such thing. Knowing the AoA is the best way to avoid a stall/spin, and virtually no cheap light aircraft have an AoA readout. They are simple and should be common (they are in the military). (The Cub pilots and other "pure" pilots will hate this suggestion!)

[dm]

Ive been gone for a couple of weeks, went on a cruise. But I signed up today for lessons, I start December 5 and go Monday, Wednesday, and Fridays to start. Weather permitting of coarse. And I'm going south a few weeks in January, but I'm starting!!!

Now I need to figure out what plane to buy.

[Rustward]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dm Now I need to figure out what plane to buy.

I suggest you ease into a purchase decision slowly after fully researching the costs and accumulating at least a few dozen hours, preferably more.

And take a toothbrush and change of underwear on every cross-country, no matter how short -- helps to fend off get-home-itis when the weather unexpectedly gets bad.

Oh yeah: Have fun!

[check6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dm Now I need to figure out what plane to buy.

That will come in time once you decide what kind of flying you enjoy. I am kicking the tires myself.

Great start btw. If you can keep that pace you will have your license in no time.

[dm]

Quote:

Originally Posted by check6 That will come in time once you decide what kind of flying you enjoy. I am kicking the tires myself. Great start btw. If you can keep that pace you will have your license in no time.

I have a few more trips planned, but other than that I plan on getting this done by summer. I'm not planning much winter golf and the good thing about being ER is I have plenty of time.

[samclem]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dm I have a few more trips planned, but other than that I plan on getting this done by summer. I'm not planning much winter golf and the good thing about being ER is I have plenty of time.

You and I both live inthe midwest, and the weather is about to get cold. Don't let that stop you--the airplanes fly (and especially climb) just fine when it is cold out. You'll also have sometimes extended periods when the winds are out of limits or the ceilings/viz are not good enough. Luckily, you are retired, so you can fly when the weather gets good, but you might not have much notice. See if your instructor can/is willing to consider going to fly when a favorable weather window pops up. Also, after you get the hang of things, offer to do lessons back-to-back if you think you can make full use of the flight time (you're not too beat up/tired, you've already got your studying done for the next lesson, etc.) This can really speed things up--IF you have an instructor who is hungry for flight time and flexible.

[check6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dm I have a few more trips planned, but other than that I plan on getting this done by summer. I'm not planning much winter golf and the good thing about being ER is I have plenty of time.

If your completion deadline is summer starting now will be dragging it out too long and will cost more. Ideally you want to block out month or more so you can fly three or more times a week. I would consider delaying your training until you can set up a tighter syllabus. You do have a syllabus right? Carrying it to the extreme, I always planned on having no life for a month for every upgrade I did with the airlines.

My brother started his flight program in Wash DC but ended up completing it in AZ due to better training consistency because of wx, a/c and instructor availability.

[dm]

Quote:

Originally Posted by samclem You and I both live inthe midwest, and the weather is about to get cold. Don't let that stop you--the airplanes fly (and especially climb) just fine when it is cold out. You'll also have sometimes extended periods when the winds are out of limits or the ceilings/viz are not good enough. Luckily, you are retired, so you can fly when the weather gets good, but you might not have much notice. See if your instructor can/is willing to consider going to fly when a favorable weather window pops up. Also, after you get the hang of things, offer to do lessons back-to-back if you think you can make full use of the flight time (you're not too beat up/tired, you've already got your studying done for the next lesson, etc.) This can really speed things up--IF you have an instructor who is hungry for flight time and flexible.

Ive talked with a couple of instructors and the one Im going with is probably not that hungry for flight time. He was showing me his collection of vintage airplanes today, he had 4 or 5 inside and I don't know how many outside. He restores them. He said he still enjoyed flying them all and he will be turning 77 soon. He started his buisness in 1966. I feel like he has been giving me some good advise and said I should be done in the spring. He has other instructors there but Im going with him. I don't think he is the ER type, he seams to really enjoy his work.

[dm]

Quote:

Originally Posted by check6 If your completion deadline is summer starting now will be dragging it out too long and will cost more. Ideally you want to block out month or more so you can fly three or more times a week. I would consider delaying your training until you can set up a tighter syllabus. You do have a syllabus right? Carrying it to the extreme, I always planned on having no life for a month for every upgrade I did with the airlines. My brother started his flight program in Wash DC but ended up completing it in AZ due to better training consistency because of wx, a/c and instructor availability.

I was going to wait till I got back from my trip in January, I'll be gone from the 1st, till about the 15th, but I'm eager to start. I'm just going to Florida for a few weeks to relax, I figure I may study up a bit while I'm down there. I am starting out with the three times a week, I'll let the working guys have the weekends. After I get past some of the duals we can look at the schedule. The instuctor mentioned a syllabus, I really am new to this, the instructor actually said I should be done by spring. I'm going to get my physical out of the way now and see how it goes.

I'll probably pick up a few books for now and get ready as I start on Dec. 5th.

[samclem]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dm I'm going to get my physical out of the way now and see how it goes.

Assuming you won't be going on to be a commercial pilot, you'll want a Class 3 physical, not a Class 1 or 2. You don't want to give the medical examiner any reason to go digging around any more than necessary.

Some instructors require their students to pass the FAA knowledge test (AKA "written test") before they are allowed to solo. In any event, it's best to get it done early so it doesn't impede your progress in your flight training. And, because the FAA is about to change the test. You'll be happier to get that done quickly.

[dm]

[QUOTE=samclem;1130571]Assuming you won't be going on to be a commercial pilot, you'll want a Class 3 physical, not a Class 1 or 2. You don't want to give the medical examiner any reason to go digging around any more than necessary.

Some instructors require their students to pass the FAA knowledge test (AKA "written test") before they are allowed to solo. In any event, it's best to get it done early so it doesn't impede your progress in your flight training. And, because the FAA is about to change the test. You'll be happier to get that done quickly.[/QUOTE

Yes, the Class 3 physical is what I need. Any idea on when the FAA is planning on changing the test? He didn't mention that he required me to pass the written test before I solo. He did mention that I have several options on studying for it. They have a night school, or I could just use various books or DVD's or computer programs available. And they would help with any questions I have. Any suggestions there?

[samclem]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dm Any idea on when the FAA is planning on changing the test?

Nope, I don't think they announce it in advance. In the cases of several previous knowledge tests, students found out when they showed up and saw 80% of the questions were ones that they'd never seen before. Here's the thing: Every question on the present Private Pilot knowledge test is already contained in study materials you can buy. As I mentioned previously, if you wait and they expand the question bank 500%, you'll have much more studying to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dm He didn't mention that he required me to pass the written test before I solo. He did mention that I have several options on studying for it. They have a night school, or I could just use various books or DVD's or computer programs available. And they would help with any questions I have. Any suggestions there?

I took a class through my local community college (10 weeks), but you could do it in MUCH less time. You really need to do more than pass the test, to be safe in the air you need to know the rules, principles and material. If I were in your boots and wanted t do this painlessly and at reasonable cost, I'd check into the cost and schedule of the ground school course offered by your FBO. Having a live instructor can be handy, but it's typically the most expensive way to do this. You don't absolutely need one if you are motivated and can learn well on your own.
1) Check out some of the good ground school textbooks from your library and use them as the basis of your study plan. The Jeppeson textbooks are good (if expensive).
2) Buy reprints of two FAA books: "Airplane Flying Handbook" and "Pilots Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge." They aren't exciting, but they do have lots of color illustrations and are cheap. Use these to amplify and explain any info that's unclear from your textbook.
3) Buy a copy of the 2012 FAR/AIM manual. This has every reg that you'll care about and will be a reference you'll need throughout your training.
4) Get the latest copy of ASA's Private Pilot Written Test Preparation Manual. You can get by with just the book (every possible question is there), but I bought the CD-ROM with the questions and found it worthwhile (you can make handy practice tests and re-drill yourself on questions you missed). The book is about $16, but the book and CD are about $40. ( Private Pilot Prepware (CD-ROM - ASA) - Sporty's Pilot Shop )

There are also complete online courses that bundle all this stuff together, teaching you the concepts and footstomping the questions on the FAA written test as you go. I've never used these and can't comment on them. I do know that some FBOs lean heavily on them for their "ground school": You show up with the other students, they pop in the DVD, you watch it for an hour, the instructor comes in and asks if there are questions.

[ls99]

Remember to look at the funny side of flying;

From AV Web:

heard this going into Los Angeles International Airport on SoCal approach frequency:
Approach:
"Airliner 123, turn right, heading 180, for spacing."

Airliner 123:
"Right turn, 180. Airliner 123. What's up?"

Approach:
"Well, our computers have the ability to suggest a specific vector to help us get the required spacing. So the computer says you gotta go south for a while."

Airliner 123:
"Oh. Well, our computer says that direct to the airport for the visual will work."

Approach (laughing) :
"Yeah, but my computer trumps your computer."

[lowflyer]

Apparently my ER forum reading isn’t up to speed, since I just now saw this topic. Tons of good advice here.

I’ve been an independent flight instructor for 11 years and although not doing it as much as I used to, I still get in a few flights a week.

Everyone has to find their own way in aviation. Listen to others, read a lot and gather as much information as you can. Be patient with yourself and make sure you are having fun. Pushing your way through some accelerated training program in order to hurry your training or save money sounds great, but is rarely practical and seldom happens. Plan to fly a couple times a week. Sometimes you’ll fly more and sometimes less. People who are very aggressive in their plans, may start out that way, but quickly back off to a more normal-paced program.

Don’t measure how you are doing by comparing yourself to others (i.e.: time to solo, time to get your certificate, etc.) This is an easy way to be unhappy in your flying and is absolutely a lousy measure of how good a pilot you are or will be.

I’m a big fan of flying clubs and see lots of value in most of them. Don’t even consider buying an airplane till you have plenty of hours under your belt. I’ve seen people do that on many occasions and it seldom is the right move.

As others have said, get no more than a Third Class medical and unless you are a young kid, with zero medical issues, get it before you start your training, so it doesn’t become an issue later when you want to solo.

However you choose to prepare for the FAA written exam, do it in conjunction with your flight training, but don’t delay and try to get it out of the way as soon as reasonably possible. Otherwise, it will become a huge burden to you later in your training.

Sign up on faasafety.gov and take advantage of the many free safety seminars and activities that are sure to be going on in your area.

Good luck and please share progress reports.

- Lowflyer

[deserat]

Learned to fly at Ryan airfield in Tucson - have flown 150's,152's, 172's, Piper, Bonanza, T-39 (old tandem seat joystick trainer for the AF), glider, ultralight. Got my instrument rating as well - flew into some of the worst fog in Modesto (approach asked us for the ceiling - we barely made minimums). Had a blast doing 3-D figure eight touch and go's at Concord airport one night (IP and I were trading off). Luckily decided not to fly back to Ryan from Blythe during monsoon season (they had tornados touch down in Phx area that evening). Next morning was one of the most wonderful days of flying ever. Have had fun flying into San Luis Obispo, Monterey, flying over the Golden Gate and then, fatigued, barely landing on the former postage stamp of a runway at Travis Aero club (closed that club runway a few years ago). Flew at McClellan - flew into Mather (is now used by DHL a lot). Flew into Mexico (by accident!). Have flow into Edwards (uhh, very wide and long runway). Have landed on the taxiway in Bisbee ;-). Have flown in Florida - runways seem so small there, but then they don't have the issues with density altitude we had in AZ. Have flown in Germany - landed on grass runway.

You've gotten great advice - I was able to get my private for about $3K in 1995....the 150 wet was cheap. I did ground school at a community college while learning to fly - it all came together in the end. Key was flying at least once or twice a week and then before your checkride, it seemed I was flying every day for several hours. The differences between your private and instrument are fairly extensive. With the private you are learning how to fly and maneuver the plane - get the feel. With the instrument you are learning to just rely on your eyes and scan the panel - relying on feel can disorient you and lead to trouble - when the instructor has you look down, takes control and does some odd maneuvers, your vestibular system goes wonky - you must believe your eyes over your vestibular system. Also, in instrument flying you learn to use slow, incremental smooth movements - if you end up going beyond the range of your instruments, you've lost your SA - which can be very dangerous in true instrument conditions. I found instrument flying to be some of the more brain draining things I've done - and you can't be thinking of anything outside the cockpit - any emotional issues must be left at the door. Depending on the vintage of your instrument suite, you will be doing a lot of three dimensional positional manipulating in your head - oh, and by the way, you will be navigating and communicating besides the aviating. Single pilot IFR is very demanding - it seemed *every D@#$ time* I left Travis airfield, Oakland Center had changed my flight plan, so I had to write it down, read it back and re-route my plan (and I usually tried to never go over into that busy corridor) all while flying under the hood and having the IP chirp at me.

In any case, it was a great decision to learn to fly - I don't do it now - insurance has gone through the roof as well as the costs....especially after 9-11. However, I wouldn't trade the experiences I've had for anything. Plus, I had the honor to join the 99's, a female pilot's group - some of the most amazing women I've ever met.

Good luck - enjoy it - remember, it's sort of like scuba diving when they tell you all the ways you could kill yourself and how not to do that - once you are up there, it is so cool, you realize you have to discipline yourself to think about what you are doing so you don't hurt yourself.

[REWahoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deserat - once you are up there, it is so cool, you realize you have to discipline yourself to think about what you are doing so you don't hurt yourself.

IOW it is very similar to being FI...

[dm]

I got my medical out of the way today. He said my blood pressure was a little high and I should watch it, but I'm good to go.

I also ordered the Jeppersen private pilot manual.

And I paid for 10 hours of plane and instruction time.

Now I just have to wait till December 5 to start, hopefully the weather will be good.