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Old 04-30-2012, 06:42 PM   #101
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I rent a Cessna 152 for $85 per hour at a nearby airport.

Flying does not have to be out of reach for most people. It's not cheap, but it's not as expensive as many people believe.
I agree Sam, I don't want to scare anyone. Aviation can be had reasonably. 172s in our local club range about $100-125. For about 6K you can fly 50 hours a year and be reasonably safe.

Please don't let this stop anyone from getting into aviation.

I only wanted DM to be realistic going into the decision....it will be more expensive than he thought. Renting, as you said, is a great way to stay in aviation, to build time/hours and have fun!

You are right, we are talking about two different birds (pun intended) renting a 152 with owning a Deb.

If you want to own your plane, be safe and maintain the value of your airplane, it is expensive. DM's plane is in nice condition and I wouldn't put a 55K airplane on the ramp in a tie-down (hangar $). He is a low time pilot getting into complex airplane (insurance $). It burns 12.5GPH (fuel $). Beech parts are getting expensive and he has a 13 year old engine w/50 hours (maintenance $).
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Old 04-30-2012, 07:39 PM   #102
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I'm not expecting a long life out of the engine, but I did have two different mechanics look it over and said it looked good. No internal corrosion and good compressions. I'm hopeing to get a few more years out of it.

Some of my cost are:
Hanger: $125 a month
Insurance: $2275
Maint: ? but labor cost are lower than my car mechanic
taxes: $1000 a year, maybe less as I can say its an antique.

Ive bought a dual yoke and I'm going to have shoulder harnesses installed. I'm also required to have at minimum 25 additional hours of dual instruction per the insurance. I'm going to go ahead and work toward my IR rating.

I'm figuring around $15k a year. I'm not including depreciation, or a engine overhaul. If the engine goes out I will have it repaired, hopefully I can get a few years out of the current one, if not, so be it. I paid less than asking and I figure I have some room there. I don't worry about depreciation in my other cars or toys. I usually keep things for several years and then they are usually not worth much. If I get 10 years out of the plane and then its just scrap metal, I would be fine with that. If I was buying a newer and much more expensive plane I would probably figure it in.

I'm currently renting a 172 for $93 hr wet. I think the 152's are going for around $75. I just don't like the availability, unsure about the maintenance, how it was last flown, and having to be back at a certain time.

I originally considered buying a 172, but they are running $35k plus for nicer ones. Go for the 180hp and your in the $50k range. Now I know your getting a much newer plane for the money and the other cost are much cheaper. But I knew that I would not be happy in a 172 for long. Then I would have to go through the cost of buying and selling again.

I have talked with many people and I hope I have a good idea of the cost. If the engine goes out tomorrow, I can afford to have it replaced. But that would mean I spent to much for the plane. But it wouldn't be the first time I spent to much for something.

I'm excited and I will just have to see how much it actually cost. I plan to take it slow at first and get as much training as needed. Also I'm not one to defer maintenance. It will cost what it cost. If things get out of hand I'll look at partners or sell. We will just have to see how it goes.
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Old 04-30-2012, 08:07 PM   #103
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What interesting is Ive spent more per hour for golf instruction than flying instruction. And Ive seen improvement with the flying instruction, not so with the golf lessons.
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Old 05-01-2012, 06:27 AM   #104
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Congratulations on the new plane! Looks very nice.

I also agree on getting the instrument rating. While the Tri-Pacer I had for a couple of years was a lot of fun the lack of instrumentation was a huge limitation. But limited flying is better than no flying.

And if you've never been to Oshkosh that's one for your bucket list. That was one of my best trips ever.
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Old 05-01-2012, 06:30 AM   #105
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Sounds like you have your head wrapped around the issues .

I'm jealous. You will like the Beech product. Learned to fly by the numbers and it is one sweet ride.

Enjoy it, flying and plane ownership was one of the joys of my life.
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Old 05-01-2012, 06:53 AM   #106
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Sounds like you have your head wrapped around the issues .

I'm jealous. You will like the Beech product. Learned to fly by the numbers and it is one sweet ride.

Enjoy it, flying and plane ownership was one of the joys of my life.
I'm sure it will be a learning experience. The annual has been completed and its to be delivered on Wednesday. The seller paid for the annual, so that's out of the way. There were a few minor things, but nothing big. Everything should be up to date. He paid for the annual, I picked the shop, only it had to be local to him.

The guy I bought it from only has 10 planes left. Mostly twins, and one jet, guess he wanted to make a little room in his hanger. I talked with a guy that is based at the same airport and he said all his planes are well kept. He just doesn't have time to fly them all. Just likes to hang around in his large hanger.

Hopefully there wont be any big suprizes, my main worry is corrosion and the engine, and the guys that checked it out for me said everything looked good. The former owner kept the plane up, just didn't fly it much. He kept it in annual and a couple of years ago had a new prop, spinner, and govenor installed. It only has 10 hrs on the prop.
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Old 05-02-2012, 11:09 PM   #107
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I also agree on getting the instrument rating. While the Tri-Pacer I had for a couple of years was a lot of fun the lack of instrumentation was a huge limitation. But limited flying is better than no flying.
And probably safer. When I built my experimental I intentionally kept it day VFR to preclude any temptation to fly single engine IFR.

It lived up to the motto, "When you have time to spare, go by air."

DM, should your Deb prove to be too expensive and you don't need to fly IFR, you might consider an experimental. Mine cruised at 180mph @ 8gal/hr with a fixed gear. Simple to maintain and you can do most of the work.
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Old 05-03-2012, 05:52 AM   #108
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And probably safer. When I built my experimental I intentionally kept it day VFR to preclude any temptation to fly single engine IFR.

It lived up to the motto, "When you have time to spare, go by air."

DM, should your Deb prove to be too expensive and you don't need to fly IFR, you might consider an experimental. Mine cruised at 180mph @ 8gal/hr with a fixed gear. Simple to maintain and you can do most of the work.
The plane was delivered yesterday. The pilot said he was cruising at 180mph, but at 13gph. And with the wife and I both retired we don't plan on pushing it with the weather. We want to get there fast, but don't have anywhere we have to be at a certain time.
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Old 05-03-2012, 01:54 PM   #109
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Congrats DM, beautiful airplane.

I sold mine a few years ago and have thought of getting back into GA again. Have been running the numbers with regards to the escalation in 100LL price in recent years. The EPA wants to do away with it but so far the refineries have not come out with a substitute.
IIRC most aircraft engines depend upon using some lead in the fuel - old design. Without it, the valves lose lubrication and then burn. I would assume that the issue can be addressed in the same way auto engines have evolved to "live without lead". But, I don't know if there is a way to do this without replacing the engine (at least the heads). Any pilots/owners know? I would think this would be a major issue (if I am correct about lead - and if EPA gets its way. Hint: Wait. Never mind, that would be political.)
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Old 05-03-2012, 02:17 PM   #110
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IIRC most aircraft engines depend upon using some lead in the fuel - old design. Without it, the valves lose lubrication and then burn. I would assume that the issue can be addressed in the same way auto engines have evolved to "live without lead". But, I don't know if there is a way to do this without replacing the engine (at least the heads). Any pilots/owners know? I would think this would be a major issue (if I am correct about lead - and if EPA gets its way. Hint: Wait. Never mind, that would be political.)
One of the reasons I chose this plane is its ability to run auto gas. The only problem is it has to be ethanol free. There are a few places locally to get it. But some do recommend putting in some leaded gas from time to time due to the valves. Like the older cars, I would think this could be taken care of when its time for a overhaul.
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Old 05-03-2012, 04:10 PM   #111
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This one I saw on Craigslist today is more my speed: Biplane for sale

Wind in your hair and bugs in your teeth!
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Old 05-07-2012, 01:03 AM   #112
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This one I saw on Craigslist today is more my speed: Biplane for sale
Wind in your hair and bugs in your teeth!
I hope that includes a five-point harness with padded shoulder straps and a parachute...
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Old 05-07-2012, 07:11 AM   #113
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The Debonair was my favorite plane back when I flew. It was faster, more quiet, and just felt better to fly. However, since it was a high performance plane, it required a lot more of my attention while flying it. I assume that improves with more hours.

I took my IR training in a 172. The Debonair would have been a different training experience I think.

I was glad to see the current cost numbers. It reminded me that I made the correct decision to hang up my flight suit. But have fun if you can swing the cost, but DON'T take unnecessary chances like I did. But I was younger and had schedules to keep.
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Old 05-07-2012, 07:37 AM   #114
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Went up for a hour on Saturday. First thing you notice is the difference in power. It really scoots down the runway and climbs. Was just taking it easy and still was buzzing along at 155-160mph. Landing actually seamed easier than the 172, but of coarse I had an instructor with me talking me through everything. I did use more runway than the 172, but I was also landing about 20mph faster.

I'm looking forward to taking some day trips.
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Old 05-07-2012, 08:29 AM   #115
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They used to call it flying out to get the "$100 hamburger." With the price of maintenance and avgas these days, you may have to triple that...
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Old 05-08-2012, 07:07 AM   #116
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They used to call it flying out to get the "$100 hamburger." With the price of maintenance and avgas these days, you may have to triple that...
Yup, I did that more than once. But it's so much more fun than driving even if the hamburger came from Micky D's, which I did once. Somehow it tastes better then.
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:40 PM   #117
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They used to call it flying out to get the "$100 hamburger." With the price of maintenance and avgas these days, you may have to triple that...
Oh yes. I remember a double date to an adjoining state. Left after work; back before bed time. Did the cost make sense? Of course not. Pure testosteral driven energy. I don't remember who the woman was or what we had to eat. But I remember many details about the flight, like losing the horizon to a thunderstorm, quietly asking my male friend to keep an eye on the lights on the ground while I locked in on the instruments. (Before IR training began ) Whew! Survived another one.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:55 PM   #118
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You might enjoy reading Frank Kingston Smith's books ("Weekend Pilot", "Flights of Fancy", etc.). And Martin Caiden's "Cross Country Flying" (1962) might inspire you: it describes his flights in a Debonair.

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So after I finish my PPL in the 172 I get to take another 25hrs of Dual in the new plane for insurance purposes.
Is there some reason why you don't complete your PPL flight training in your own plane? Seems like a shame to rent a 172 when you have that nice Debonair available.
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:46 AM   #119
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You might enjoy reading Frank Kingston Smith's books ("Weekend Pilot", "Flights of Fancy", etc.). And Martin Caiden's "Cross Country Flying" (1962) might inspire you: it describes his flights in a Debonair.



Is there some reason why you don't complete your PPL flight training in your own plane? Seems like a shame to rent a 172 when you have that nice Debonair available.
I only have 1 1/2 hour of night and 3 hours of practice for the checkride. Since I'm this close I figure I might as well stay with what I know. Plus the 172 rents for $93 hour wet. It probably cost $60 to $65 hour in gas for the Debonair, plus the instructor charges $10 hour more if you use your own plane. So not a lot of money difference.

Hopefully I'll have my PPL before the end of the month. Then I'm going to try and get my hours in the Debonair fairly quickly.
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Old 05-29-2012, 09:03 PM   #120
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I passed!!!!

Now I just need the high performance and complex endorsement so I can fly my Debonair.
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