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Old 10-31-2007, 02:58 PM   #21
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Slashdot | iPhone Not Running OS X

Calling something else "OSX" is exactly what they did.

It would have been trivial to use one of Samsungs ARM based operating system choices and build the iphone interface on top of it. Many existing phones use the same hardware and OS and also...are phones! And some also play mp3's and videos and surf the web and...cost less than half as much.

But if they said "well, this is basically the same hardware and software everyone else has, and we just made it Apple-Pretty so the folks who buy macs would like it" then they wouldnt be able to make $831 off of it, now, would they?

Apple Makes $831 For Every iPhone Activated

Porting and slimming OSX to run on a weenie little ARM processor would have been a monumental task with little or no developer or end user benefits. But someone who knows what they're talking about would understand that.

Microsoft sells a product called "Windows CE" for consumer electronics. Its called "windows" but it bears no resemblance internally to the actual windows product.

Suckers will hear "this is a handheld os x based machine, not just a phone!" and read all sorts of value into that proposition.

Taking a consumer level product and creating a newer brand for it is less valuable than borrowing a senior brand thats well respected. Brand extension is a cheap and easy way to add profit dollars to an otherwise ordinary item.

By the way, the Newton was also ARM based and had many of the capabilities one could find in the Mac OS. My bet is that they borrowed heavily from that Newton code base to make the iphone software.

Would you pay $850 for a new Apple Newton II?
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Old 10-31-2007, 03:00 PM   #22
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emphasis mine...

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Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny View Post
Yes Twad, Cert and other agencies keep finding problems, Apple keeps fixing them, yet the users continue to believe that they never existed.
You know CFB, resorting to twisting my words sure doesn't do much to strengthen your case.

I never said the vulnerabilities and patches never existed. I just said that they have not been exploited in any significant way in OSX.

To the end user, the reasons may not matter much. Unless of course, something changes. And that's one thing I'm probing here - if there have not been significant exploits in the past, what would trigger a change?

Some have said when Macs outnumber PCs. Maybe. In that case, I don't have much to worry about (for the time being).

Maybe it's not the number of vulnerabilities, but maybe how easy it is to circumvent and make them 'useful' to bad guys? I don't know, but I don't see the 'obscurity' logic going far enough to explain it.

Isn't the demographic of over 55 republican males one with big bank accounts?

I'll fall back on my original statement - how can there be NO incentive for virus writers, when there IS an incentive (admittedly smaller, but not non-existent) for application writers? The app writers don't ALL say - hey, there's more PCs than Macs, so lets not write ANY Mac SW. They sell their apps to all those over 55 male republicans (Does Al Gore fit that demographic? - sorry, couldn't resist*).

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* For those unaware, Al Gore is on the Apple Board of Directors. Last time I checked, he is over 55 and probably still a Democrat Also, the 'slideshow' he had put together for 'The Inconvenient Truth', is often referred to as a 'PowerPoint', but it was done on 'KeyNote', an Apple application.
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Old 10-31-2007, 03:09 PM   #23
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Slashdot | iPhone Not Running OS X

Calling something else "OSX" is exactly what they did.
....

But if they said "well, this is basically the same hardware and software everyone else has, and we just made it Apple-Pretty so the folks who buy macs would like it" then they wouldnt be able to make $831 off of it, now, would they?
Well, I don't think some random poster to Slashdot that says 'it is not OSX' is very credible. Maybe this link isn't very credible either:

Inside the iPhone: Mac OS X, ARM, and iPod OS X

At any rate, maybe it isn't a port of OSX. Like I said, we should find out in February. Maybe it would be very smart if it was not OSX - that helps the 'obscurity' factor of OSX, and it seems to be working quite well for them in avoiding malware.

I doubt that very many of the 1 million iPhone buyers cared if was running a ported OSX or not. They bought it for it's perceived value (whatever that is!), regardless of the OS roots.

-ERD50
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Old 10-31-2007, 03:22 PM   #24
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"I havent heard of it, so it probably doesnt exist."

"I can think of one exception, so that disproves the theory."

"I can make sweeping generalizations that arent true, but they support my proposition."

These seem to be recurrent issues.

Lets tackle one of them, this repeated comment about developers of applications.

If I develop an application that people are willing to buy with their money, I can make a profit.

If I develop a piece of malware to steal things from people who dont have anything worthwhile to steal, in volumes to make it worthwhile to compensate for the effort, that developer is a moron.

Note that there are VERY few developers who develop products only for OS X. The ones that do pretty much have a market cornered on a niche product that they can make a living on vs competing in a more wide open market with 100 developers.

In short, there is no analogy here.

Most elderly republican men are not rich. In fact its the opposite. It is true that the average mac owner has more money than the average pc owner, but its unclear which is the cause and which is the effect and what part of the demographic produces the result. It may simply be that the machine is only bought by people who have more discretionary income in the first place. It may be that the huge preponderance of windows users includes a proportionally larger component of poor people, again because they couldnt afford a mac.

Also, being an old rich guy with a mac doesnt mean that there is access to the money through the computer in any meaningful volume. Stealing passwords is pretty far down the list from creating chains of work machines to spew spam and swiping corporate databases. But whatever slim straw that can be grasped to attempt to not look like a complete idiot is okay I guess.

Lastly, since there is little or no monitoring software on most macs, there could be 100 worms out there sending passwords back to someone. Nobody would know any different.
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Old 10-31-2007, 03:31 PM   #25
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Well, I don't think some random poster to Slashdot that says 'it is not OSX' is very credible.
Maybe anyone with an expert opinion that differs from your relatively uneducated one lacks credibility?

Quote:
I doubt that very many of the 1 million iPhone buyers cared if was running a ported OSX or not. They bought it for it's perceived value (whatever that is!), regardless of the OS roots.
You cared. Apple is making a point of telling people that its OSX so they think theres some value in it and they feel that there will be a perception of value that this is simply a "handheld mac".

But I suppose that if you spent 15 years developing operating system code and hardware platforms, followed by 9 years of strategic marketing, you'd have a better handle on all of this.

I doubt anyone is still reading this, but whoever is knows that this has little to do with "finding the truth". Have you had enough attention for the day?
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Old 10-31-2007, 03:56 PM   #26
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Using the example of Windows CE to bash the iPhone.. that brings a smile to my face.
CFB, you seem like you're trying to argue both ways: it's OK for M$ to make mega-billions issuing less-stable and yet still costly software that causes many users problems, but it's BAD for Apple to release a less-costly OS that hasn't caused virtually anyone any problems so far, since they charge a more for nicer-designed HW. Who cares if they make $800/iPhone? People seem to want them, and the stockholders -of which I am sadly not one- ain't complaining. Should they join the race to the bottom and make the crappiest stuff imaginable? People have been there and done that. Seems you are willing to appreciate and even pay more for quality when it comes to buying a Lexus over a Hyundai.. which is a couple orders of magnitude more expensive. Either vehicle may still get a flat tire. This is your personal hairball, my friend.
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Old 10-31-2007, 04:02 PM   #27
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Let me clear the air once again. I thought I said it quite plainly the first few dozen times.

The mac is a good computer. Its overpriced. Its buyers are sold a bill of goods that are subjective at best. I'm of the opinion that people should know what they're buying and get a good value proposition by having the right information.

An apple computer is not virus proof. It is not easy for a windows user to pick up a mac and simply find it so much easier to use that its well worth an extra $500. It is not made from magic parts by magic elves that are superior to non apple machines. It is made of the same parts and on the same assembly lines as other first tier non apple machines.

I have never said that there is anything good or beneficial about microsoft or its products, nor that there is anything inherently bad about apple or its products.

I am simply scraping the marketing bullshit off. And giving a troll what he wants. And making people who paid extra for something they may not have received a little grumpy.

I dont see any quality benefit in buying a lexus. My wife wanted one. We can afford it. Neither one of us had any illusion that we were getting anything other than a glorified toyota. At least the dang things dont depreciate much and we'll be driving it for 10 plus years, so whats the difference...
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Old 10-31-2007, 04:10 PM   #28
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After years of glitches, crashes and once (really) smoke coming from the cabinet of an expensive Gateway piece of crap loaded with Windows Millenium (as unstable as the San Andreas fault), I have spent three and one half trouble free years as a very heavy user of a 17 inch Mac lap top that doubles a desk top with blue tooth mouse and key board. Worth every cent.
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Old 10-31-2007, 04:24 PM   #29
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I use computers to run software. I've never needed to run anything that ran only on a Mac, but I have needed/wanted to run a bunch of stuff that ran only on Windows or Linux.

I think Apple has narrowed the gap quite a bit since they switched to a Unix variant running on Intel. If they either made their stuff as open (and free) as Linux or as hardware-independent as Windows, I would definitely consider OS X. It's never been a religious issue for me. Just an issue of compatibility, openness, and cost.
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Old 10-31-2007, 04:28 PM   #30
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Windsurf - I purchased my first computer in 1978. I have had Radio Shack, Kaypro, Compaq, HP, IBM, Gateway, Quantize, Dell, and maybe others I can't think of. I have had one hard drive fail, one power supply and one monitor in almost 30 years. I have never had a virus attack, and for the first 25 years I ran no protection on the machines. So does this mean all those computers are good, or that their operating systems were solid. Of course not. Yours is the same logic that most political treads break down into. Someone quotes a anecdotal story and it rolls from there.

So from my point, I am glad I saved all the cash, as the Mac was just not worth it. See that just doesn't make since, does it?
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Old 10-31-2007, 05:35 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny View Post
...

Lets tackle one of them, this repeated comment about developers of applications.

If I develop an application that people are willing to buy with their money, I can make a profit.

If I develop a piece of malware to steal things from people who dont have anything worthwhile to steal, in volumes to make it worthwhile to compensate for the effort, that developer is a moron.

Note that there are VERY few developers who develop products only for OS X. The ones that do pretty much have a market cornered on a niche product that they can make a living on vs competing in a more wide open market with 100 developers.

In short, there is no analogy here.
I follow you up until you infer that Mac computers wouldn't have anything anyone wants to steal. True, there probably are very, very few corporate databases to hit on OSX, but there sure are lots of home computers that get targeted for passwords, or to be taken over as spambots or whatever. You really think that Mac computers have so little on them that a thief would want, that the thieves would pass up millions of unlocked systems to go for only (mostly protected) Windows computers? That seems like a real stretch to me. Thieves generally go for easy targets, and if the Macs are as vulnerable as you claim, and mostly unprotected, I think they would be getting hit.

That's probably as far as we can take that point, I can't see anyway to 'prove' it one way or the other. Agree to disagree?

It still doesn't change the fact that Mac users are NOT getting hit, which is what really matters to a user.

There is a subset of users, that are using a program called 'Little Snitch' which reports on any 'unauthorized' communications going out from your Mac. I do keep pretty current with Mac news, and I haven't seen any reports of it catching anything other than legitimate (but sometimes unexpected) 'phone home' events - programs checking for updates, etc. Nothing nefarious reported, as far as I am aware. If there were reports of anything bad happening, it would spread like wildfire throughout the online Mac community.

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Old 10-31-2007, 05:40 PM   #32
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It would be interesting if there were never an exploit, but google seems to think there have been several. Here's another random google hit:

New QuickTime exploit hits MySpace, steals passwords
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Old 10-31-2007, 06:05 PM   #33
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The mac is a good computer. Its overpriced. Its buyers are sold a bill of goods that are subjective at best.
Well, I'm trying to avoid the 'value' issues in this thread and stick to malware. But since it keeps popping up, I'll throw in my 2 cents - a LOT of it is subjective. I've seen some of the arguments back and forth before, and they just get crazy. I know some people who place a really high value on the iLife suite, and don't like what they've seen in Windows-land. To them, a Mac is 'cheap' for what it gives them in bundled software. OTOH, some people don't want to even touch those programs, worth nothing to them. So, yes, it is subjective. Look and decide for yourself.

It's condescending to say that all Mac buyers were 'sold a bill of goods'. It's up to the buyer to determine that for themselves.

So, back on topic, the part that does NOT appear to be subjective, is that the almost no Mac owners have had to deal with malware issues.

Quote:
An apple computer is not virus proof.
And of course, you know I never said that they are 'virus proof'. I don't know a Mac owner that thinks that way (though I'm sure they exist).

Quote:
I have never said that there is anything good or beneficial about microsoft or its products, nor that there is anything inherently bad about apple or its products.
Well, we almost agree. I actually do think there are some inherently bad things about Apple products. Specifically, not enough options in the desktop range. I'd love to see a Linux distribution that I could be happy with. Then, I could pick the HW I want. I don't really like to be tied to the view of the world that Gates OR Jobs has. Open source stuff always seems to be more configurable. But, not ready for most prime time users, it seems.

Quote:
I am simply scraping the marketing bullshit off.
From my POV, the marketing BS comes from people who wave about 'vulnerability' statistics as 'proof' of anything, when in fact, those vulnerabilities are not being exploited.

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Old 10-31-2007, 06:29 PM   #34
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It would be interesting if there were never an exploit, but google seems to think there have been several. Here's another random google hit:

New QuickTime exploit hits MySpace, steals passwords
Twaddle, thanks for bringing that one to my attention also.

I feel a bit better seeing that Apple had patched this two weeks before it was exploited. Only people that had not updated were affected, but that can still be a fair number.

It also depended on a fair amount of 'social engineering'. It took a visit to a specific porn site, and then a strange notice that you need to download a special QT plug in (which you would normally get from Apple), and then provide your password to let it install.

So again, the reason I hadn't heard of it, is that it never spread far at all.

Keep 'em coming, these look pretty few-and-far between, and not very likely to become wide-spread.

I'm sure that a lot of Windows issues are accomplished through social engineering also (as are email, snail mail and telephone scams). Everyone needs to be educated about that, but sadly, many are not.

-ERD50
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Old 10-31-2007, 08:03 PM   #35
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I need a "double ignore list" that lets me put people on it whose posts are too stupid to allow a 'view post' option.
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Old 10-31-2007, 08:11 PM   #36
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I believe that independent analysis currently rates Windows and OS X as roughly equal in intuitive nature and ease of use.
I wonder how Windows Vista is doing in that independent analysis.

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If nothing else, there is no discussion we can put together here that hasnt been washed over a hundred million times on a hundred million discussion forums over the last 20 years.
Especially this one. But someone else can tackle this subject for the FAQ archives!

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It is not made from magic parts by magic elves that are superior to non apple machines.
Eh, great, now I have to go get my brain scrubbed to remove the image of Woz wearing Will Ferrell's elf costume...
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Old 10-31-2007, 09:22 PM   #37
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The last study I saw, which I posted a link to in one of these stupid shin kicking threads, was pretty darn reasonable as far as not being too tilted had XP at something like 98 points and OS X at 100. Their early preview of vista was that it tipped past OS X. My personal vista experiences suck. Its got a long ways to go.

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After years of glitches, crashes and once (really) smoke coming from the cabinet of an expensive Gateway piece of crap loaded with Windows Millenium (as unstable as the San Andreas fault), I have spent three and one half trouble free years as a very heavy user of a 17 inch Mac lap top that doubles a desk top with blue tooth mouse and key board. Worth every cent.
For what its worth, Windows ME was one of the worst commercial operating systems ever released, and the late 90's, early 2000's Gateway machines were also some of the worst mass produced computers made.

You enjoyed about the worst possible experience.

While I've worked for company's who used macs and had them in mixed environments that I had to use and support, I'll briefly relate one of my personal Mac experiences. I used macs for years and always found them appealing visually, functionally about equal to their windows counterparts if you stuck with the standard Office product (no surprise there), but expensive and often slow.

My wife (girlfriend at the time) had some crappy pc that was built by a local computer retail store and Windows ME. I had to spend the first 45 minutes of every visit to her house fixing whatever was broken THIS time. We decided to get her something new, and since she was a heavy digital camera/videocam/mp3 user, a Mac just seemed to make the most sense. After all, its *the* machine for the high touch, media savvy person.

We bought an iMac, a lovely indigo model. IIRC it was about $1200 out the door, and I paid an extra $129 for the very spiffy and highly regarded OSX 10.0, since the machine came with system 9. I had to bite some bullets on this, since a similar Dell machine with a flat screen LCD could be had with a lot of goodies in it for about $400-450 cheaper.

I also had to buy a new indigo printer, since her old one had no Mac drivers, and she didnt like the mouse so we bought an indigo blue trackball.

Then we found out that her mp3 player wasnt even remotely compatible. And her videocamera with a firewire out port wasnt supported on the mac either. At least her digital camera worked. But iPhoto was a pretty sparse application that had nowhere near the features that the supplied windows based editing package came with. And when we got a new videocamera that worked with the mac, I found myself pretty disenchanted with iMovie. It did the job, but even crappy Windows Movie Maker was easier to use and about twice as fast. I couldnt produce anything in windows media format, only quicktime. Her parents windows computer didnt have quicktime and after spending 3 hours trying to download it over their dialup line, I gave up.

Then I made the mistake of installing OS X 10.0. What initially received gushing and glowing reports from the media suddenly became a "less than alpha" product that was barely usable, incompatible with many applications, required a slower than molasses 'compatibility mode' for many others, and had limited or no driver support for many devices.

After downloading lots of new drivers and a ton of patches, and enjoying several weeks of "this is better..." : quipping from the wife, I reloaded the system 9 disk. Which had none of the games, photo samples, video samples, extra's, apps or almost half of anything else that was originally preloaded. I was told by apple support that yes, that was the case...those materials are preloaded but licensing prohibits them from including the material on the recovery disks.

Over the next 18 months I regularly had humongous downloaded updates over dialup, frequently had to find and download drivers specific to our cameras, trackball and printer, and pretty much had to unplug it and haul it to my house once every few months to use the broadband connection when the updates just got too far behind. We got OSX 10.1 for free as an upgrade. It sucked too and back to system 9 we went. When I was offered OS X 10.2..."The good one", for a $49 upgrade price...I declined.

I found it a pleasant enough machine, but I found no glaringly easy or simple aspects to it vs the early versions of XP. Better than windows 98 to be sure, and way better than windows ME. I did however have to agree with my friend Jerry Pournelle, who once said "Macs *are* easy to use, because you either figure out how to do something right away or you'll never figure it out. Once you learn that and stop trying to do things that arent apparent and just live with it, its great".

I had several opportunities to disassemble it. Once when I discovered that the measly 256MB of ram included was inadequate to do anything and had to add another 256MB just to get some apps to run faster than I could perform the task manually. I had to replace the disk drive once when it started whining too loud to sit in the room with the machine, and the replacement also started whining about a year later just as we were about to sell it. Not enough ventilation was just cooking the drives, since Apple doesnt believe in putting a fan in the machine. The dvd drive also crapped out and I had to pay about $200 to have a new slot drive unit put in just so I could boot the recovery disk to wipe the machine to sell it.

While perusing the interior, I found a standard motorola processor, some pretty weak nvidia video chips (128K shared), a maxtor disk drive, lucent "winmodem" soft modem chip, and a mediocre but solid internal display.

In short, similar quality and inferior capability to the much cheaper Dell machine I should have bought, and system 9 wasnt as good as XP became during that time period.

At no point did I feel like I had escaped from Microsoft Hell and gotten a good value for my money. I swapped one set of problems I understood for a bunch of problems that I didnt and bought a mundane machine at a premium price. The much ballyhooed super duper applications that all worked so seamlessly werent very powerful, were slow, and didnt do a lot of things that I needed them to do. I had a ton of windows software that would do the job, but that didnt work on the mac.

I know this is a worst case, xx years ago anecdotal experience, but its a fair and honest one and if we're going to draw comparisons around old hardware and software, I guess this balances that out.

The grass is not usually greener on the other side of the fence...new operating systems stink no matter who makes them...paying extra for something doesnt mean its better...compatibility with what you want to do and what you own is realllly important.
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Old 11-01-2007, 01:28 AM   #38
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I would have to say that I had similar experiences when moving/upgrading from
- Windows 2.0 to 3.1, 3.1 to 98, and so on
- Linux kernels 7 - 8, 8 - 9, and so
- Mac 4 - 6, 9.1 - 10.0, and so on
suffice to say that these type of transition problems are not isolated to any one OS.
I would like to offer a rebutal on the CFB statement "Its overpriced. Its buyers are sold a bill of goods that are subjective at best." While this possibly may be a consideration for the first time buyers of Macs, it certainly would/should not be true for repeat buyers. And it definitely would not be true for repeat buyers that are simultaneous users of both OSs, either through work, or other locations. When voting with their dollars for the repeat purchase/replacement/upgrade, especially in light of your experiences in having to replace drivers and peripheral devices to accomodate their selection, that would negate their belief in the idea of "overpriced". Rather as you stated it is a subjective assessment of acceptable cost for value provided, and of the user/owners that I know, they feel it is fair.
Now back on topic, Twaddle, I read through all of those Cert listings, and didn't find any OS related notice, but rather a few issues on bundled applications/utilities, but the majority were for items that are not normally enabled in the desktop environment - bind, sendmail, lpd, ftpd. And the majority of the items listed were at least 5 years old. Other then the already mentioned Quicktime and Safari items, do you have any more current, and valid OS related advisories?
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Old 11-01-2007, 02:08 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by whitestick View Post
Twaddle, I read through all of those Cert listings, and didn't find any OS related notice, but rather a few issues on bundled applications/utilities, but the majority were for items that are not normally enabled in the desktop environment - bind, sendmail, lpd, ftpd. And the majority of the items listed were at least 5 years old. Other then the already mentioned Quicktime and Safari items, do you have any more current, and valid OS related advisories?
I would first ask you to define "OS related," and then I would ask you why it matters.

Any process that runs privileged is potentially vulnerable to system-wide attack. Any process that runs on behalf of the user is vulnerable to a user-specific attack, and that generally includes all of your important data.

Of course, Microsoft intentionally tries to blur the line between OS and application. Or at least they tried to argue in court that IE was part of the OS and therefore impossible to unbundle.

But it really doesn't matter for a mac or pc user who is concerned about their security rather than system-level security.

Bottom-line: computers will always be vulnerable to blackhat exploits as long as there are software bugs. And there will always be software bugs.
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Please take OS [-]Hairballs [/-] Wars to another THREAD...
Old 11-01-2007, 08:41 AM   #40
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Please take OS [-]Hairballs [/-] Wars to another THREAD...

In my original post, and a subsequent one I stated that I would like to see this thread limited to the topic of Malware on the Macs. I asked that issues regarding the OS usability, Mac hardware, costs, and whether you like black turtlenecks or not be taken to another thread. I have no problem with those topics, but please, not in this thread. Those topics will dilute the issue at hand.

I think there's been some good discussion on the Malware issues, I've learned a few things and I appreciate the feedback. So, can we continue on any Mac Malware related issues? Thanks.

Later, I will respond to some previous comments, since they are already out there. After that, I will ask the moderators to delete any posts that stray from the Malware topic - post them elsewhere please.

TIA - ERD50

PS - I guess formatting does not work in titles, but you get the point
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