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Old 06-21-2011, 08:42 PM   #61
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I agree but sometimes with family it's very complicated !
Agreed. However one way to cut through a Gordian Knot is to use a very big sword...
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Old 06-21-2011, 09:12 PM   #62
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As they used to say in the old Navy aviation community, "Green light!!"
Thanks for the reminder Nords! I think it might be time to green-light the XO!
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Old 06-22-2011, 06:36 AM   #63
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I agree but sometimes with family it's very complicated !
In DW's family it is not so much complicated as blatant emotional blackmail. In the worst case, dropping hints like "I'm so depressed over huge bills that I just don't know what I might do". Naturally, DW doesn't want to live with a suicide on her conscience.

Me, I'd supply the ammo. (just kidding)
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Old 06-22-2011, 06:53 AM   #64
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Me, I'd supply the ammo. (just kidding)
I'm not ...
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Old 06-22-2011, 06:55 AM   #65
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I suppose there are degrees of mooching.

I am not too concerned with the small stuff. It just winds up being a bit of an annoyance. I try to not make a big deal out of it. But sometimes I can get hung up on the "Principle of the Mooch"!

For larger things, I have tended to help family members that find themselves in crisis.... assuming it was not a massive amount of money. I have made quite a few multiple k donations. But there are limits. Some tried to become frequent borrowers from the chinaco bank (and of course never repay).... I cut them off! Naturally they resented it and all of the sudden I went from the status of helpful sibling to insensitive selfish tight wad.
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Old 06-22-2011, 02:55 PM   #66
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A true moocher [in my opinion] is a person who views asking others for money as a viable means of supporting themselves. That type of moocher is gonna catch a face full of palm if they come calling on me for a handout. Nothing lower on this Earth than someone scheming to get a free/easy ride at others expense.

A legitimate need for money is a different issue but that had better be for a desperate situation and infrequent occurrence.

And the absolute worst of the worst is the sibling who uses mom to facilitate the mooching. Asking her to do the asking.

Ugh, just plain, UGH.
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Old 06-22-2011, 03:01 PM   #67
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..............
And the absolute worst of the worst is the sibling who uses mom to facilitate the mooching. Asking her to do the asking.

Ugh, just plain, UGH.
That would be my SIL. Nothing worse than to see DW's face when her mom calls up crying.
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Old 06-22-2011, 03:38 PM   #68
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Moochers have never been a problem for us. Friends and family only show when invited. We invite them fairly often but it's our decision. Only invite the ones we enjoy. Sounds like we are pretty lucky in this regard.
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Old 06-23-2011, 09:20 AM   #69
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If that's the way they behave then I'm a little unclear on the concept of why anyone would want to maintain amicable relations.

No one takes advantage of you without your tacit consent.
Most of the mooching family in question are my in laws, ie DW's siblings, parents, etc. Not sure I want to lose the DW over some minor annoyances from the in laws, since she is on board with telling them no, and they aren't overly pushy about it now that we have them trained to expect a no. DW would NOT be on board with ceasing all relations with her siblings and parents who live within 2 miles of us.
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Old 07-03-2011, 08:40 AM   #70
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Just had a moocher try to take me for $1200 yesterday. "Can I borrow $1200 from u until I get my tax return in Feb". Texted to me from my SIL.

My response (in an email): "We have a lot of credit card and other bills coming due in July and August. We won't really have any extra to let you borrow for a few months at least." Basically punting the ball I know, but this conveys the message I want to craft. "We don't have much cash laying around, and can't just fork over thousands at the drop of a hat".

The best thing is that my response is polite, honest, factual, reasoned, and says no.

This is the SIL that wanted to borrow a down payment to buy a house 6 months ago or borrow the entire amount, since she can't find financing. No, not the gambling addict SIL for those following along with my posts!

Every year around June/July/Aug she seems to need around a thousand bucks to carry her through Feb when her income tax return comes due. This is defining "living paycheck to paycheck".

Odds are she would repay me, since she has borrowed money probably 6 times before over the last 8 years, and generally repaid on schedule. But the interest I get on the loan isn't worth the stress of worrying whether she will repay. And I have to craft that image of "we don't have any money and are living paycheck to paycheck just like the rest of you".
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Old 07-03-2011, 09:48 AM   #71
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If she expects the refund in February, have you ever suggested that she simply change her W-4 so she has the money in hand instead of loaning it to the gummint?
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Old 07-03-2011, 01:05 PM   #72
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If she expects the refund in February, have you ever suggested that she simply change her W-4 so she has the money in hand instead of loaning it to the gummint?
I thought about suggesting that, then I just saw her facebook employment status as "worked at XYZ Corp". Notice the past tense phrasing there. Not sure if she is still gainfully employed (she just had a baby).

And it would be a matter of capturing all of her Advanced Earned Income Tax Credit, since she is (was) in the perfect income range for getting that with a modest income and 4 babies and she is a single filer.

I'm not going to get in the middle of her tax withholding issues. We'll just exchange pleasantries at our 4th of July celebrations and keep it at that...
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Old 07-03-2011, 01:36 PM   #73
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I thought about suggesting that, then I just saw her facebook employment status as "worked at XYZ Corp". Notice the past tense phrasing there. Not sure if she is still gainfully employed (she just had a baby).
Not a facebook expert, but I've noted it often says "has worked at" when I know they're still working there.
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Old 07-03-2011, 07:23 PM   #74
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Not a facebook expert, but I've noted it often says "has worked at" when I know they're still working there.
Could be. I just looked at about 10 friend pages, and SIL's is the only one where it is phrased in the past tense (other than currently unemployed people's pages).
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Old 07-04-2011, 08:54 AM   #75
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Sounds like one SIL, who just got back from their SC beachfront hotel vacation in the 3-room suite. She was impressed with the granite countertops, stainless appliances, yada yada yada. ~$2,500 for a week and mind you, they could stay for free at the other SIL's place a half hour down the road.

But that's not good enough. It's not oceanfront, being two blocks from the water, and The Queen would have to make her own bed, do her own laundry, cook most of her own meals, clean up afterward, and vacuum the rugs. Sheesh, the place doesn't even have a dishwasher. My goodness, that would never do!

They also use their income tax refund to pay for the vacation, the rest of the time living paycheck to paycheck. They have so far avoided any major financial meltdowns and not asked for money but I'm sure that when the day inevitably arrives when hubby isn't making six figures anymore she's in for a rude awakening.
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Old 07-04-2011, 11:52 AM   #76
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Could be. I just looked at about 10 friend pages, and SIL's is the only one where it is phrased in the past tense (other than currently unemployed people's pages).
Mine says has worked at. Didn't get to s, did ya! My non working brothers FB doesn't even list a job it has been so long!
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Old 07-04-2011, 12:21 PM   #77
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Just had a moocher try to take me for $1200 yesterday. "Can I borrow $1200 from u until I get my tax return in Feb". Texted to me from my SIL.

My response (in an email): "We have a lot of credit card and other bills coming due in July and August. We won't really have any extra to let you borrow for a few months at least." Basically punting the ball I know, but this conveys the message I want to craft. "We don't have much cash laying around, and can't just fork over thousands at the drop of a hat".
conveys the message I want to craft

You shouldn't feel like you have to craft an answer. No need to explain how you live in an email. Does she explain how she lives? She can easily conclude that if she finds someone else to cover her in July and August that your funds would be accessible in September.

When asked by text message the simple straightforward response should be by text -

"No."

Has she already asked the father of her 4 children?
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:47 AM   #78
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Mine says has worked at. Didn't get to s, did ya! My non working brothers FB doesn't even list a job it has been so long!
Sure enough, yours does say "has worked at". Good sign that SIL may still be gainfully employed. I asked DW about the "has worked at" and she said you have to specify the date ranges of when you started and that you are still working there, otherwise it says "has worked at" as a default.
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:53 AM   #79
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Sounds like one SIL, who just got back from their SC beachfront hotel vacation in the 3-room suite. She was impressed with the granite countertops, stainless appliances, yada yada yada. ~$2,500 for a week and mind you, they could stay for free at the other SIL's place a half hour down the road.

But that's not good enough. It's not oceanfront, being two blocks from the water, and The Queen would have to make her own bed, do her own laundry, cook most of her own meals, clean up afterward, and vacuum the rugs. Sheesh, the place doesn't even have a dishwasher. My goodness, that would never do!

They also use their income tax refund to pay for the vacation, the rest of the time living paycheck to paycheck. They have so far avoided any major financial meltdowns and not asked for money but I'm sure that when the day inevitably arrives when hubby isn't making six figures anymore she's in for a rude awakening.
My in laws aren't quite this bad (probably because they don't have a six figure income). They have no problem coming to the beach with us when we rent a beach house for the whole family. We never asked for them to chip in, and so far no one has offered to help pay, although some will chip in some food as an in kind payment. But we are glad to spend time with family so it is a very worthwhile expenditure for us even if we had to pay full freight for everyone (otherwise we wouldn't do it).

Although this SIL I was talking about does take frequent vacations. Nothing fancy, usually cheap weekends at the beach or mountains. Not something I would personally be doing if I was broke and needed a $1200 advance on my tax returns.
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:59 AM   #80
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conveys the message I want to craft

You shouldn't feel like you have to craft an answer. No need to explain how you live in an email. Does she explain how she lives? She can easily conclude that if she finds someone else to cover her in July and August that your funds would be accessible in September.

When asked by text message the simple straightforward response should be by text -

"No."

Has she already asked the father of her 4 children?
I feel like I do owe her a little more than a simple "no". We have let her borrow money in the past, and this is the first time she has asked us for money and we are saying no to her. She may come back in Sept and we have another "no" prepped and waiting in that case. I got plenty of 'em.

The bigger picture is that I am working on creating our FIRE cover story for DW's family (and some parts of mine too for that matter). Part of that is that "Gee golly we don't have any money on hand right now. It is all tied up in investments and we would take a severe bath if we had to sell anything right now." They get the concept of saving for one's future, even if they don't always implement this knowledge in their own personal lives.

Not sure if she has asked the babies' daddy. Not my biz since I'm not forking over any money.
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