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Old 09-22-2013, 09:32 PM   #41
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Midpack....

You mentioned in the middle of a quote that they were hoping for better TV watching.... well, for me they actually have to put it ON TV.... the only way I can watch is after the fact on youtube....
The first two days were on NBC about two weeks ago, it's been on NBCSports since then. I don't get NBCSports so I've been watching live on my iPad Americas Cup HD app (free), but you're point on TV is well taken. Not sure what % of people subscribe to NBCSports.


I think the racing is interesting.... much more so than auto racing...

The other bad thing about interest in sail racing is that there is not a lot out there that is interesting.... I remember watching when they had the old boats... and it was a lot less interesting.... the strategy was so subtle you could not even see it.... on the ones now, you can see if it worked pretty quickly....As much as I love sailing, it's about as interesting as watching paint dry for most people. Even sailors who don't race probably don't grasp much of the tactics/strategy - the essence of sail racing IMO. While there are more boats per capita in New Zealand than any other country IIRC, I'm under no illusion that it will ever be more than a niche sport in the USA.
Oracle Team USA won two more races today, bringing the score to 8-5, first to 9 wins. Actual tally is 8-7, but USA was penalized 2 races before the finals began. Where it once looked hopeless for the USA, it's gotten interesting. If NZ wins just one race in the next 4, they take the Cup, Oracle has to win 4 straight - it would be one of the most remarkable comebacks in any sport if Oracle USA pulls it off (they were down 8-1...before winning last 4 straight). Any equipment failure on Oracle and it's probably over...
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Old 09-23-2013, 06:54 AM   #42
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No doubt this racing is exciting, (and I love it!) but...

Anyone up for the grand old J boats with their double clewed jibs and crew all in white?? Somehow, sailors dressed in hockey gear doesn't seem right.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:14 PM   #43
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No doubt this racing is exciting, (and I love it!) but...

Anyone up for the grand old J boats with their double clewed jibs and crew all in white?? Somehow, sailors dressed in hockey gear doesn't seem right.
Indeed, but...

Duesenberg's and Bugatti's are beautiful too, and they will probably always have their followers, but relatively few people care to watch them race compared to NASCAR.

Sailing has been declining for decades, with median age climbing from about 35 to 55 now. Sailing peaked in the 70's but it seems to be waning along with that generation, and may once again become an elite sport like polo, equestrian, etc. Junior sailing is still reasonably healthy, but today's kids don't stick with it as adults - there are books and papers studying the subject. Instead of a family activity, passion/pastime like it once was - today junior sailing is just another summer activity for kids, functioning as a babysitter for kids so the parents get a break.

Right or wrong, the powers that be thought if they showed "extreme" sailing (like these AC72 catamarans), it might appeal to the extreme sports generations. So far, not so much. I've had the good fortune to sail a J/Class boat (Shamrock V), even steered for about 20 minutes including a tack - it was a great experience, but I've raced quite a few different small boats that were just as fast or faster than a J/Class. OTOH, I will never get to sail on an AC72, though I'd love to at 4 times the speed of a J/Class boat. And that's probably a big reason why the AC72 has not reached the target audience, there is no way any of us will ever get near one, or anything remotely like it. YMMV

Sorry, probably TMI.

Looking forward to the racing this afternoon starting a 1:00PST...
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:49 PM   #44
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I'm not so sure. I'm wondering if they will sprout a post AC business of sails on SF Bay like the Stars & Stripes charter in San Diego. I would be game to take a ride on an AC72. I think it would be a hoot.

What I really wonder is if Hobie or some other cat builder will add foils to their cats so the rest of us can have some fun. I could see a downsized AC45 in the 16-18' range that is trailerable as being popular and bringing a lot of young people into sailing.
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Old 09-23-2013, 01:13 PM   #45
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I'm not so sure. I'm wondering if they will sprout a post AC business of sails on SF Bay like the Stars & Stripes charter in San Diego. I would be game to take a ride on an AC72. I think it would be a hoot.



What I really wonder is if Hobie or some other cat builder will add foils to their cats so the rest of us can have some fun. I could see a downsized AC45 in the 16-18' range that is trailerable as being popular and bringing a lot of young people into sailing.
We'll see about AC72 charters, but I wouldn't bet on it.
  • The wing has to be put up and taken down with a crane every time you sail the boat. Hoisting a soft sail like an IACC boat has is a piece of cake by comparison, no matter how large.
  • You can't reef a wing, so that rules out windy days. It's relatively easy to depower an IACC boat and the charter boats sailed with much lower sail area than when in competition, not so with an AC72. I've sailed on one of the San Diego IACC boats (not S&S, might have been Abracadabra), it was a wreck...
  • A decent group of sailors can handle an IACC boat, not so with an AC72, much trickier and way more dangerous (liability). The chances of a "passenger" falling off an IACC boat are relatively low. OTOH world class pro sailors have been flung off AC72 several times already, one died.
  • A larger crew would be required than an IACC boat too, though an onboard engine to power the hydraulics (instead of an army of grinders) would help that.
  • It would be a very expensive charter proposition between cranes, liability insurance, initial and ongoing costs.
The AC45s the teams raced before the AC72s were not foiling cats, though I suspect that will follow shortly. Foiling is another level of complexity/skills.

Wouldn't surprise me if we see foiling Hobies though. For several years there have been a few foiling boat/classes (see below for two that get the most press). And I have seen pictures of a foiling Laser recently. It may be a long while before a foiling anything hits the mainstream since most sailors buy floating condos that never leave the docks. Sail racing is a small subset of sailing, and foiling multihulls are an even tinier niche so far. Time will tell...


International C Class Cup 2013 | Falmouth, UK | 22nd to 28th September | ICCCC | ...
Mach2 Foiling Moths - Home
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Old 09-23-2013, 05:09 PM   #46
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US still alive... looking forward to Tuesday...America's Cup: Oracle wins Race 16 - San Jose Mercury News
........................
Midpack... you've got my bloodpressure moving with your descriptions... sheesh... wish I could still do that stuff.

Here's a video from 2006... How'd ya like to try this?
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Old 09-23-2013, 05:27 PM   #47
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Midpack... you've got my bloodpressure moving with your descriptions... sheesh... wish I could still do that stuff.

Here's a video from 2006... How'd ya like to try this?

Bladerider Sailing 2 - with Sam - YouTube
The same or very similar to the foiling Moth I referenced above. I'd love to try one, but I'd probably have my hands full and spend more time swimming/treading water than sailing...
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Old 09-24-2013, 06:24 PM   #48
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Don't know nothing about sailing no boats, but from I saw online about today's races, this thread needs updating by someone who does
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Old 09-24-2013, 07:29 PM   #49
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Down 8-1 to New Zealand (where first to 9 wins takes The Cup), Oracle Team USA has now won 7 straight close races to draw even at 8-8 - every one was do or die for USA! I have followed this Americas Cup closely, and NO ONE from experts to novices believed there was any chance Oracle could recover - even hardcore USA fans.

Now it all comes down to 1 race for all the marbles, after 100's of millions $ spent. Most of the sailing community has been endlessly critical of this entire Americas Cup, but they're all completely stunned now - and the racing has been far, far better than anyone imagined. Much faster, closer, more races, more everything relative to every other AC before!

It's almost a shame there has to be a loser tomorrow, it will be devastating for someone. What's worse,
  • NZ being up 8-1 and losing 8 straight to lose the Cup OR
  • USA being down 8-1, fighting your way back to even at 8-8, and then losing the Cup in the last race - making one of the greatest sports comebacks EVER all for naught.
No right answer IMO.

Wild horses couldn't keep me away from watching tomorrow, though I've watched every race all along.

Amazing...
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Old 09-24-2013, 10:36 PM   #50
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+1 nothing to add from here - incredible comeback--or not?
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Old 09-24-2013, 11:17 PM   #51
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I'm not so sure. I'm wondering if they will sprout a post AC business of sails on SF Bay like the Stars & Stripes charter in San Diego. I would be game to take a ride on an AC72. I think it would be a hoot.

What I really wonder is if Hobie or some other cat builder will add foils to their cats so the rest of us can have some fun. I could see a downsized AC45 in the 16-18' range that is trailerable as being popular and bringing a lot of young people into sailing.
Something like this:

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Old 09-25-2013, 04:29 AM   #52
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I guess I am watching America's cup today. I have a acquaintances that went to SF to watch the races, it sounds like it was worth the effort.

I do love one commentary's quip, "if you thought Larry Ellison was insufferable before this comeback...."

Almost makes want to root for the Kiwis.
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Old 09-25-2013, 07:29 AM   #53
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Larry E notwithstanding, if you follow the Americas Cup in sailing forums, you find there are hundreds of posts with equal measure of good sportsmanship and (sadly) worse than "insufferable" from Kiwis and Americans alike...
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Old 09-25-2013, 12:04 PM   #54
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Duesenberg's and Bugatti's are beautiful too, and they will probably always have their followers, but relatively few people care to watch them race compared to NASCAR.
In answer to the OP, no.

But I would watch a Bugatti doing nothing for hours.
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Old 09-25-2013, 03:50 PM   #55
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USA wins. Only race I watched, but it was exciting.
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Old 09-25-2013, 05:28 PM   #56
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Description of the amazing result:

Oracle completes miracle comeback to retain America
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Old 09-25-2013, 08:16 PM   #57
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I'm still waiting for today's race to be posted to YouTube since I don't get NBCSports channel.
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Old 09-25-2013, 08:26 PM   #58
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Great team comeback but Oracle "Team USA" is a bit of a misnomer - one American on the boat and one Aussie/US dual citizen - so 2 out of 11.

No matter - still right up there in terms of sports come from behind victories.
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Old 09-26-2013, 09:29 AM   #59
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Great team comeback but Oracle "Team USA" is a bit of a misnomer - one American on the boat and one Aussie/US dual citizen - so 2 out of 11.
It's worth noting the nationality of the design, build, shore and othe non-sailing personnel, they play a very significant role as well. By all indications, the design and shore teams made Oracle competitive where they were not when the AC finals began. They would NOT have won with the boat/configuration they raced on day 1 of the AC finals, despite the tactician swap (a lesser factor).

The Americas Cup has always been a design contest first, the ability of the sailors is usually secondary. It's not like one-design or even handicap sail racing that most people know. The AC is a boat mismatch more often than not, this edition was unusual in history. The last AC was a total mismatch for example, as most have been.

The NYYC implemented a nationality clause in 1980 after the Australians started to improve by drafting an American tactician. Increasingly after 1980, sailors began moving to other countries and establishing legal citizenship between Americas Cup campaigns, IOW bending the nationality rules. It was the Kiwis who eliminated the nationality rules in 2003! A little irony?

Every team is multinational, some more than others, and the actual sailing "Team USA" is especially hard to reconcile as you note (and widely debated in sailing forums) along with this...
Quote:
Winning the Cup was expensive. It is estimated that Silicon Valley billionaire Larry Ellison spent $170-$200 million on his boat’s campaign while the Kiwi’s spent $84 million says Sailing World. “It was David vs. Goliath,” Gary Chapman, president of group services For Emirates in Dubai, told me.
Kind of takes some of the "USA pride" out of the win when the Kiwis came so close to taking The Cup with half the budget from a nation with 1/70th the population of the USA. Sailing is much more popular in NZ than the USA, IIRC the number of boats per capita is higher in NZ than any other country. I've even thought of moving there in retirement as a result...but they don't take expats without marketable skills for the most part.
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Old 09-27-2013, 12:20 AM   #60
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Thats what we thought...its all over ..no way they will come back but just goes to show that "it aint over till its over". general mourning over her of course but has been exciting.
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Oh yeah. I've watched every race all the way back to the fleet racing on the AC45's, and all the AC72 LVC and AC races. They have all been on youtube live or delayed (lately), on NBC yesterday and today and NBCSports I think this coming week. Even for those who don't sail, it's worth a look. Just imagine
  • a 72 foot catamaran,
  • with a 130 foot rigid wing for a (main)sail,
  • weighing 6.5 tons,
  • going over 50 mph in 20 mph winds (propelled only by wind),
  • with the entire boat out of the water foiling on a surface about the size of a surfboard.
  • while maneuvering within inches of each other at times.
Sound unbelievable? Give it a look.

Doesn't look good for the USA if the first two races are any indication, the Cup may be going back to New Zealand...
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