Anyone watching the America's Cup?

[pb4uski]

I couldn't read the speed but it looked like they were going over 30 knots just before they buried it. I suppose that it didn't pitchpole only because they buried both pontoons rather than just the leeward pontoon (and the boat is 7 1/2 tons). I can't imagine seeing a 7 1/2 ton cat pitchpole.

 

[Midpack]

I couldn't read the speed but it looked like they were going over 30 knots just before they buried it. I suppose that it didn't pitchpole only because they buried both pontoons rather than just the leeward pontoon (and the boat is 7 1/2 tons). I can't imagine seeing a 7 1/2 ton cat pitchpole.

I am guessing you know there have been two AC72 capsizes. The first was Oracle essentially pitch pole/capsize, see link below at about 0:40. The second was Artemis where the boat broke up in moderate wind, not really a "crash" per se, and a crew member died/drowned. In both cases, the boats were almost destroyed.

ORACLE TEAM USA "17" Capsize - The Whole Story - YouTube

It appears today's races have been postponed to tomorrow due to high winds.

 

[Midpack]

Did anyone see the New Zealand cat almost capsize during Race 8?

Yep, that race was heart-in-mouth moment...I can't believe they were prepared to go out for the second one. Crikey, is about all I can say. And that's an Australian word.

For those who may not have seen it...

 

[Midpack]

Did anyone see the New Zealand cat almost capsize during Race 8?

Yep, that race was heart-in-mouth moment...I can't believe they were prepared to go out for the second one. Crikey, is about all I can say. And that's an Australian word.

For those who may not have seen it...

YIPES!!!

 

[annienz]

Rumour has it down these parts that Team NZ are the dog and on this occasion Oracle were the lamppost. I couldn't possibly comment.

 

[imoldernu]

The America's Cup Home page was completely unintelligible to me... twice as bad as Nascar website... try to find information? Yuck. Schedule and results? Strange... Couldn't find any commentary on the races. But they DO offer a Clean Boater Pledge, considerable information on AC Open, and more info on the Concert Series.

The sports pages of the major newspapers don't seem to know what to make of the races. Reporting is terrible, and a few days behind.

That said, watching the replays has been a fascinating experience. From what I can see, we're still in a learning experience, with so many variables I doubt that any computer could sort the strategy out.

The sail
The total weight, incredible, and bouncing like a tennis ball
The team weight, moving from side to side
The required strength from the winders
The hulls, in and out of the water
The daggerboards and it seems, no trim tabs (that I could see), so reliant to the manual raising and lowering. Flexible to a fearful level.
Tacking with a foil sail
Covering @ 45 mph
Jibing... how would ya know?

Almost everything that one has ever learned about sailing, different. A whole new dimension. The learning curve is apparent with each race, as speeds and "apparent" strategy changes.

A lot of the racing doesn't make sense to me... some racing with both hulls in the water, some with one... and anywhere from 1 to four daggerboards in the water... Boggles the mind.

On board cameras amd microphone...very exciting.

The cideo is great, not kust for the shots, but the "lines" on the screen, showing distance, and the speedometers showing comparitive speeds. A fabulous viewing experience.

If the printed media, the online coverage, and the TV networks can ever get their acts together, it could be a great sports experience. NBS sports is not in my DirecTV package, so the tv menu doesn't show it. Strange... with no notice from anyone, the cup coverage is available there, but the channel is blocked on a usua, regular basis.

It's like a superbowl that is being ignored.

That's my opinion...

 

[Midpack]

Some comments if you're interested.

BTW, NZ won the 1st race today and the 2nd was postponed due to high winds (again). Now at 8-1 NZ-USA. First to 9 wins the Cup, so it may be over tomorrow.

The America's Cup Home page was completely unintelligible to me... twice as bad as Nascar website... try to find information? Yuck. Schedule and results? Strange... Couldn't find any commentary on the races. I have to agree the site is clumsy at best.

The daggerboards and it seems, no trim tabs (that I could see), so reliant to the manual raising and lowering. They are raised/lowered manually. They also pivot fore/aft (same effect as a trim tab), controlled by the helmsman/driver, controls are on inside rim of steering wheel.

A lot of the racing doesn't make sense to me... some racing with both hulls in the water, some with one... and anywhere from 1 to four daggerboards in the water... Boggles the mind. Each hull has one adjustable daggerboard and one rudder (that can't be adjusted up/down, no moveable trim tab) - four appendages as you noted. Whenever windspeed and point of sail (upwind, reach, downwind) allow, they'll be flying on the leeward (hull away from where the wind is coming from) daggerboard/foil and rudder. [You will never see them on just one appendage (daggerboard/foil or rudder) except maybe for a split second.] The windward daggerboard/foil is raised and the windward rudder will dip in and out of the water, purely a function of heel angle. More often than not, it seems there's one foil and two rudders in the water. Foiling downwind and reaching is typical, upwind occasionally. Going upwind they will have both hulls in the water at times.

The video is great, not just for the shots, but the "lines" on the screen, showing distance, and the speedometers showing comparative speeds. A fabulous viewing experience. A great advance in sail TV technology to be sure. Too bad the AC72 racing was so boring before the finals. The AC72 challenger races were awful, Sweden and Italy weren't at all competitive with New Zealand. More like a parade than a race. Having great graphics/video doesn't matter when one boat beats the other by more than 5 minutes.

If the printed media, the online coverage, and the TV networks can ever get their acts together, it could be a great sports experience. NBS sports is not in my DirecTV package, so the tv menu doesn't show it. Strange... with no notice from anyone, the cup coverage is available there, but the channel is blocked on a usua, regular basis.

It's like a superbowl that is being ignored.Sailing has always been a niche sport, and probably always will be. The organizers had high hopes for attracting a big audience to this Americas Cup to promote sailing, but that hasn't happened at all.

 

[imoldernu]

Thabks for a great, informative explanation...

 

[Midpack]

Well team USA (Oracle) took the first race today, but the second race was abandoned due to high winds (GT 23 knots wind & current for more than 30 seconds). So ETNZ has won 8 races and OR has won 4, score stands at 8-2 (with USA 2 race penalty). Takes 9 to win, so USA must win 7 straight, NZ only needs to win 1 race in next 8. Tall odds against USA...

 

[Midpack]

Thabks for a great, informative explanation...

This is even better than words if you're interested. Good explanation on foiling, adjustments, speeds, etc. - just a couple of minutes.

America's Cup: All about the foils / AC72 - YouTube

 

[pb4uski]

I'm hoping that a forum member can solve a mystery for me. If one boat fouls another (like in yesterday's race) what is the penalty for the foul?

When I was racing small boats we had to do a 360 within a certain amount of time as the penalty for a foul. Obviously, not likely with a 72' cat. Just wondering.

 

[Larro Darro]

I like sail racing, but haven't been watching. I'm hoping the KW's go ahead and wrap it up. They are messing up my F-1 Quali from Singapore. I had planned to record it from my DVR to a R&W DVD so I could watch it at work today. But alas, it was pushed back because of the AC. It hadn't recorded by the time I had to leave.

 

[Midpack]

I'm hoping that a forum member can solve a mystery for me. If one boat fouls another (like in yesterday's race) what is the penalty for the foul?

When I was racing small boats we had to do a 360 within a certain amount of time as the penalty for a foul. Obviously, not likely with a 72' cat. Just wondering.

You're right, a conventional 720 penalty turn (360 is only for touching a mark) wouldn't make sense for a 72 ft catamaran, they'd have no chance of recovering from two 360's, it takes too long for a multihull. For this AC, the penalized boat must immediately slow down and give up two boat lengths. You might think it would be hard to verify, but with the telemetry on these boats, the race officials signal the penalty and then tell the slowed boat when they have satisfied the two boat length penalty using a system of lights on board. No talking required, all done with lights on board both competitors boats.

America's Cup AC45 Tech: Lighting the Christmas Tree - from CupInfo

 

[pb4uski]

Thanks Midpack. It has been so long I couldn't remember whether it was 360 or 720 but I think you are right and it was 720. If it was at the start or in traffic we could use some judgement to get out of the pack and then do the penalty.

Interesting the way they do it now, though two boat lengths is nothing at the speeds they are doing.

 

[Texas Proud]

Midpack....

You mentioned in the middle of a quote that they were hoping for better TV watching.... well, for me they actually have to put it ON TV.... the only way I can watch is after the fact on youtube....


I think the racing is interesting.... much more so than auto racing...

The other bad thing about interest in sail racing is that there is not a lot out there that is interesting.... I remember watching when they had the old boats... and it was a lot less interesting.... the strategy was so subtle you could not even see it.... on the ones now, you can see if it worked pretty quickly....

 

[Midpack]

Midpack....

You mentioned in the middle of a quote that they were hoping for better TV watching.... well, for me they actually have to put it ON TV.... the only way I can watch is after the fact on youtube....
The first two days were on NBC about two weeks ago, it's been on NBCSports since then. I don't get NBCSports so I've been watching live on my iPad Americas Cup HD app (free), but you're point on TV is well taken. Not sure what % of people subscribe to NBCSports.


I think the racing is interesting.... much more so than auto racing...

The other bad thing about interest in sail racing is that there is not a lot out there that is interesting.... I remember watching when they had the old boats... and it was a lot less interesting.... the strategy was so subtle you could not even see it.... on the ones now, you can see if it worked pretty quickly....As much as I love sailing, it's about as interesting as watching paint dry for most people. Even sailors who don't race probably don't grasp much of the tactics/strategy - the essence of sail racing IMO. While there are more boats per capita in New Zealand than any other country IIRC, I'm under no illusion that it will ever be more than a niche sport in the USA.

Oracle Team USA won two more races today, bringing the score to 8-5, first to 9 wins. Actual tally is 8-7, but USA was penalized 2 races before the finals began. Where it once looked hopeless for the USA, it's gotten interesting. If NZ wins just one race in the next 4, they take the Cup, Oracle has to win 4 straight - it would be one of the most remarkable comebacks in any sport if Oracle USA pulls it off (they were down 8-1...before winning last 4 straight). Any equipment failure on Oracle and it's probably over...

 

[marko]

No doubt this racing is exciting, (and I love it!) but...

Anyone up for the grand old J boats with their double clewed jibs and crew all in white?? Somehow, sailors dressed in hockey gear doesn't seem right.

 

[Midpack]

No doubt this racing is exciting, (and I love it!) but...

Anyone up for the grand old J boats with their double clewed jibs and crew all in white?? Somehow, sailors dressed in hockey gear doesn't seem right.

Indeed, but...

Duesenberg's and Bugatti's are beautiful too, and they will probably always have their followers, but relatively few people care to watch them race compared to NASCAR.

Sailing has been declining for decades, with median age climbing from about 35 to 55 now. Sailing peaked in the 70's but it seems to be waning along with that generation, and may once again become an elite sport like polo, equestrian, etc. Junior sailing is still reasonably healthy, but today's kids don't stick with it as adults - there are books and papers studying the subject. Instead of a family activity, passion/pastime like it once was - today junior sailing is just another summer activity for kids, functioning as a babysitter for kids so the parents get a break.

Right or wrong, the powers that be thought if they showed "extreme" sailing (like these AC72 catamarans), it might appeal to the extreme sports generations. So far, not so much. I've had the good fortune to sail a J/Class boat (Shamrock V), even steered for about 20 minutes including a tack - it was a great experience, but I've raced quite a few different small boats that were just as fast or faster than a J/Class. OTOH, I will never get to sail on an AC72, though I'd love to at 4 times the speed of a J/Class boat. And that's probably a big reason why the AC72 has not reached the target audience, there is no way any of us will ever get near one, or anything remotely like it. YMMV

Sorry, probably TMI.

Looking forward to the racing this afternoon starting a 1:00PST...

 

[pb4uski]

I'm not so sure. I'm wondering if they will sprout a post AC business of sails on SF Bay like the Stars & Stripes charter in San Diego. I would be game to take a ride on an AC72. I think it would be a hoot.

What I really wonder is if Hobie or some other cat builder will add foils to their cats so the rest of us can have some fun. I could see a downsized AC45 in the 16-18' range that is trailerable as being popular and bringing a lot of young people into sailing.

 

[Midpack]

I'm not so sure. I'm wondering if they will sprout a post AC business of sails on SF Bay like the Stars & Stripes charter in San Diego. I would be game to take a ride on an AC72. I think it would be a hoot.



What I really wonder is if Hobie or some other cat builder will add foils to their cats so the rest of us can have some fun. I could see a downsized AC45 in the 16-18' range that is trailerable as being popular and bringing a lot of young people into sailing.

We'll see about AC72 charters, but I wouldn't bet on it.

• The wing has to be put up and taken down with a crane every time you sail the boat. Hoisting a soft sail like an IACC boat has is a piece of cake by comparison, no matter how large.
• You can't reef a wing, so that rules out windy days. It's relatively easy to depower an IACC boat and the charter boats sailed with much lower sail area than when in competition, not so with an AC72. I've sailed on one of the San Diego IACC boats (not S&S, might have been Abracadabra), it was a wreck...
• A decent group of sailors can handle an IACC boat, not so with an AC72, much trickier and way more dangerous (liability). The chances of a "passenger" falling off an IACC boat are relatively low. OTOH world class pro sailors have been flung off AC72 several times already, one died.
• A larger crew would be required than an IACC boat too, though an onboard engine to power the hydraulics (instead of an army of grinders) would help that.
• It would be a very expensive charter proposition between cranes, liability insurance, initial and ongoing costs.

The AC45s the teams raced before the AC72s were not foiling cats, though I suspect that will follow shortly. Foiling is another level of complexity/skills.

Wouldn't surprise me if we see foiling Hobies though. For several years there have been a few foiling boat/classes (see below for two that get the most press). And I have seen pictures of a foiling Laser recently. It may be a long while before a foiling anything hits the mainstream since most sailors buy floating condos that never leave the docks. Sail racing is a small subset of sailing, and foiling multihulls are an even tinier niche so far. Time will tell...


International C Class Cup 2013 | Falmouth, UK | 22nd to 28th September | ICCCC | ...
Mach2 Foiling Moths - Home

 

[imoldernu]

US still alive... looking forward to Tuesday...America's Cup: Oracle wins Race 16 - San Jose Mercury News
........................
Midpack... you've got my bloodpressure moving with your descriptions... sheesh... wish I could still do that stuff.

Here's a video from 2006... How'd ya like to try this?
Bladerider Sailing 2 - with Sam - YouTube

 

[Midpack]

Midpack... you've got my bloodpressure moving with your descriptions... sheesh... wish I could still do that stuff.

Here's a video from 2006... How'd ya like to try this?

Bladerider Sailing 2 - with Sam - YouTube

The same or very similar to the foiling Moth I referenced above. I'd love to try one, but I'd probably have my hands full and spend more time swimming/treading water than sailing...

 

[Bestwifeever]

Don't know nothing about sailing no boats, but from I saw online about today's races, this thread needs updating by someone who does

 

[Midpack]

Down 8-1 to New Zealand (where first to 9 wins takes The Cup), Oracle Team USA has now won 7 straight close races to draw even at 8-8 - every one was do or die for USA! I have followed this Americas Cup closely, and NO ONE from experts to novices believed there was any chance Oracle could recover - even hardcore USA fans.

Now it all comes down to 1 race for all the marbles, after 100's of millions $ spent. Most of the sailing community has been endlessly critical of this entire Americas Cup, but they're all completely stunned now - and the racing has been far, far better than anyone imagined. Much faster, closer, more races, more everything relative to every other AC before!

It's almost a shame there has to be a loser tomorrow, it will be devastating for someone. What's worse,

• NZ being up 8-1 and losing 8 straight to lose the Cup OR
• USA being down 8-1, fighting your way back to even at 8-8, and then losing the Cup in the last race - making one of the greatest sports comebacks EVER all for naught.

No right answer IMO.

Wild horses couldn't keep me away from watching tomorrow, though I've watched every race all along.

Amazing...

 

[pb4uski]

+1 nothing to add from here - incredible comeback--or not?