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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim
Old 06-18-2005, 05:19 PM   #41
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

With regards to the pain and suffering, I meant 'was she experiencing them while she was still on the tube'. You said that it was clear her continued existence harmed no one. What if she was in pain? My wife (who works in health care) says feeding tubes are quite painful.

According to the autopsy, she lacked sufficient brain function to feel terror, or to show it or to recognize or interact with anyone. In fact, for some time she was probably blind. So whatever the siblings think they saw, is just that. They saw what they wanted to see.

The videos. Yeah, I like those. Cherry picking a few moments of hundreds of hours of video to capture moments that look like she's responsive. Again, according to the autopsy, not enough brain function for anything other than random behavior due to various stimuli.

Once again: cherry picking video bits: good; cherry picking vote counts: bad. Got it.

I saw a real head shaker last night...watching "The daily show"...Stewart put on a clip of Frist, before 'terrys law' was thrown out saying "I've seen the videos...spent an hour looking at them in my office. Clearly she is not in a vegatative state and is responsive". Then another clip after the autopsy "I never made any diagnosis or statement regarding her mental state...I couldnt have...I never examined her". Stewarts comment: "Do these guys know that the news media has cameras?". Well put. Almost as funny as the time Frist made a half hearted effort to support the Bush administrations suggestion that aids could be transmitted by sweat.

See this http://www.comedycentral.com/sitewid...l?itemId=15734

Click on 'act two' if the video doesnt automatically start...

A court decided that she couldnt be rehabilitated and that her body very well might be in some form of pain or suffering that her mind could not comprehend. The worst of all possible worlds in my opinion.
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-18-2005, 05:21 PM   #42
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art
and who have destroyed large chunks of the health care infrastructure of those states. No, they DON'T pay their own way.
Are you the same guy that was flogging that other dead horse last week? Hmmm...nope, that was another mistaken guy.

Illegal immigrants in the entire US use less than 2% of the 'free care' provided by hospitals. The numbers in states like california and texas when taken separately arent that much higher.

Sorry, also not factually supported.
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-18-2005, 05:29 PM   #43
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notth
Illegal immigrants in the entire US use less than 2% of the 'free care' provided by hospitals.* The numbers in states like california and texas when taken separately arent that much higher.
Tell it to all the hospitals and hopital ER and Trauma Centers that are being shut down in large numbers in these states due to illegal immigrants and zero financial help from the feds.

I'm getting out of here for a while- I'll check back later.
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-18-2005, 05:34 PM   #44
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Actually the federal government has committed a billion dollars to funding uninsured emergency room visits, not zero.

ER and trauma rooms ARE closing due to cost overruns, but only in very small numbers, not 'large numbers'. Even in the southernmost counties in california the number of emergency room visits by resident uninsureds vs illegal immigrants is 4:1. Its estimated that roughly half of those visits are not true emergencies and most of them are associated with substance abuse coupled with a minor ailment.

Hmm...44 million US resident uninsured vs 8 million illegal aliens.

Art...do you just read a tagline from some newspaper or web site and run with it or is there actually some kind of reliable source for these tidbits?
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim
Old 06-18-2005, 05:35 PM   #45
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notth
Once again: cherry picking video bits: good; cherry picking vote counts: bad.* Got it.
"Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds."

Autopsies can't tell you what you are confident they can tell you.

The human brain has much redundancy and new pathways form that defy explanation. Great neurologists don't pretend they know and can explain it all. I'll err on the side of mom and dad, and no, I don't think her feeding tube bothered her as much as her murder did.

Later.
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-18-2005, 05:39 PM   #46
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notth
Actually the federal government has committed a billion dollars to funding uninsured emergency room visits, not zero.

Art...do you just read a tagline from some newspaper or web site and run with it or is there actually some kind of reliable source for these tidbits?
I'll make a deal with you: I'll supply references for my data after you do. Fair enough?

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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim
Old 06-18-2005, 05:39 PM   #47
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art
"Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds."
I wasnt looking for foolish consistency, just any at all.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim
Old 06-18-2005, 05:51 PM   #48
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

Terri (sp?) married her husband. At that point, she formed her own, new family. She went into a coma while married. Her husband, unless proven guilty of some nasty act, is responsible for making decision for her in those circumstances. She trusted him enough to marry him and live with him. When she can't make decisions or doesn't leave written instructions, he was/is responsible. It's sort of biblical to my mind. She's responsible for marrying him. She had no say in who her mother and father were; she freely chose her husband. She is responsible for her own choices.

The above is mostly about pre-nups and nups.

Regards, Off Topic
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim
Old 06-18-2005, 05:57 PM   #49
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art
I'll make a deal with you: I'll supply references for my data after you do. Fair enough?
Fine, I'll show you mine; there are about 32,000,000 sources for this story

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/r...i?ArtNum=97027

Bush administration commits a billion dollars to illegal immigrant health care

Also notes that 84 hospitals in total have closed in CA over the past several years and does not specify that their closures were in whole or part due to treating illegal immigrants, with 9 expected to close in the next year, which would have been 2004.

Note that another source provides information saying that ~70 of those hospital closures are due to insurance programs and acts that have cut the amount paid to hospitals by the HMO's and insurance companies for insured patients.

Given that there are thousands of hospitals in CA, <100 is not a particularly large number. Further, other studies show that total hospital beds have increased in the last ten years while bed occupancy has declined.

Note also that none of this includes any new hospitals opened. One large HMO has opened more than 12 new hospitals in california since 1993.

Different sources estimate the california healthcare costs to manage illegal immigrants at 500M, 350M, 90M and 70M depending on who is counting. Mostly because people who come into the emergency room and have no insurance often give false names and addresses and nobody knows whether they're illegal or not. So if you feel like it being a large number, you 'estimate' the number of hispanics (or whatever immigrant group you feel like tagging) into the illegal pool. Note that 40% of legal hispanics in california have no insurance.

As far as the rest, do your own google searches. I doubt you're really that interested. I promise I dont just make this stuff up to disagree with you.

As far as the autopsy results...gosh...even the tin foil hat guys arent arguing with that one. I guess in the land of almost everything is possible you can get really angry and upset at an awful lot of stuff and go from there...
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim
Old 06-18-2005, 06:53 PM   #50
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notth
As far as the autopsy results...gosh...even the tin foil hat guys arent arguing with that one.*
I never disputed the autopsy results. I said: "Autopsies can't tell you what you are confident they can tell you."

Much of what you are mindlessly blathering about can only be determined by in-depth clinical exams over time- which (with the exception of Dr. Hammesfahr's 10 hour consult) Terri never had. (Hammesfahr's report can be googled). Crandall saw her for 45 minutes.

Autopsies are great. Given the controversy of this case- it's too bad a name pathologist was not called in to witness it- but I'd expect that in Numbnuts County. Still, I accept the autopsy results.






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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim
Old 06-18-2005, 06:58 PM   #51
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

th, Art,

Enough already! Give it a rest.

Both of you go to your room!

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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-18-2005, 07:25 PM   #52
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

I'm IN my room!
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim
Old 06-18-2005, 07:29 PM   #53
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notth
I'm IN my room!
Then don't come out until you can behave yourself! (Or at least 'til you can stop posting on this subject!)

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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-18-2005, 07:36 PM   #54
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..


He started it!
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-18-2005, 07:37 PM   #55
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Stop touching me!
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-18-2005, 07:39 PM   #56
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo!
Then don't come out until you can behave yourself!
Oh...like THATS gonna happen...
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim
Old 06-18-2005, 07:53 PM   #57
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art
He started it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notth
Stop touching me!
Hopeless.. :P

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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-18-2005, 08:44 PM   #58
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Hmmm

The sun has set on Lake Ponchartrain and a couple of pier lights have clicked on - may walk over later and see if Mr Ray or Skippy are catching anything.

Now about this dead horse - it is going to affect my ER - How??

Heh, heh, heh, heh.

Strikes me as a good discussion during a cold winter in Missoula.
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim
Old 06-18-2005, 09:35 PM   #59
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

Quote:
Originally Posted by moghopper
In California, they'll have to be special biodegradeble Depends made from 100% post consumer material.
I understand there's a large surplus of "100% post consumer material" in Kalifornia. Also, a large cache in DC...
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-18-2005, 10:06 PM   #60
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

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Originally Posted by unclemick2
Strikes me as a good discussion during a cold winter in Missoula.
Is there such a thing?
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