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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-18-2005, 10:14 PM   #61
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

This discussion has driven me into a vegetative state. Someone please pull the plug.
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim
Old 06-18-2005, 11:12 PM   #62
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

Art, you are obviously really bent about this, what's the reason? I mean, let's just suppose you are right, of all the injustices in the world why this one?

23 enemy prisinors have died during "interrogation" while in U.S. military hands
Hundreds of prisoners are held without representation or even a trial date
Thousands have died, and millions are at risk of death in the Sudan
etc.etc.etc.

Another thing, you trust the perception of Terri's family over the clinical opinions of her vegitative state, that's your right, but as a father of a daughter with a disability, I've seen at events other parents who saw things about their kids that just weren't true. They see what they really want to see, sometimes at the exclusion of the truth. I feel for Terri's family, and they were manipulated by snake oil salesmen for years telling them all the ways Terri might be helped (send more oxygen to the brain with my special method! Green tea! Whatever). I see it all the time with parents of kid's like my daughter. All sorts of mega-vitamins and other crap, and people buy, hoping beyond hope. It's a sad, sick situation all around.

FYI: I'm a registered Republican, Christian who goes to church every Sunday, McCain hopeful. I have found myself moving to the left as the far religious right has taken over "my" party, violated the separation of church and state, and as the party has completely abandoned any fiscal responsibility. My personal belief is as Christian leaders move more and more into politics and power, they become the very Pharisees that Jesus condemned. So yeah, I guess that means I'm a lib.
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-18-2005, 11:32 PM   #63
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

"Every time I try to get out, they pull me back in!"
-Al Pacino, "Scarface"

I'm trying, REW.
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-18-2005, 11:37 PM   #64
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Laurence, I am sorry to hear about your daughter's disability. Obviously, I had no idea.

Rather than get into this again, I think I'll pass and ask you to re-read my posts.

If you still have any questions after that, I will try to answer them for you.

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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim
Old 06-18-2005, 11:57 PM   #65
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

Don't be sorry, you didn't do anything and she's nothing but joy. If anything you could be percieved as being on "my side" defending those who are disabled. But I shared that info to just give a little perspective so that you knew I wasn't just firing off an ignorant opinion while riding in my limo the the Barbera Striesand concert.

I read your previous posts and hear what you are saying, don't necesarily agree, but I was just asking if you had any experiences like this in your personal life that caused this to touch a nerve. I guess that sounds nosy but that's why I shared my info to keep it real.

1 minute take on it is I see parents who couldn't let go, saw what they wanted to see, and got manipulated by those who saw personal, financial, and political gain in it. I'm all through now, won't beat the horse anymore!
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-19-2005, 01:28 AM   #66
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

No Laurence, I've had no personal experience with this. I just can't believe the U.S. legal system killed this girl for NO REASON when her family wanted to care for her as she was, based mainly on the lies of her estranged husband/probable murderer. Testimony of numerous health care workers documented his orders to treat her like she was already dead. No medical care for infections. No simple grooming. No flowers, music, physical therapy, sunlight. One nurse testified that he tried to kill her with insulin.

I believe the nurses. What would they gain by lying? Was this going to help their careers? Do you REALLY think hospitals/nursing homes/hospices like to hire whistleblowers? Were they hoping to score a book deal? Were they all lying emotional retards willing to expose themselves to massive media abuse for five minutes on TV? They had everything to lose by sticking their necks out.

Why would her girlfriends lie about her plan to leave him due to his control freak personality the night she "collapsed"? Why would his previous girlfriend back them up on his freakish personality? THEY'RE ALL LIARS? But Michael is honest?

The liberal media presented this to the public as a Republican Congress trying to stick it's nose where it didn't belong- instead of trying to prevent a murder- and that's what the public sees so far.

Some people think Judge Greer has the brains to judge which witnesses are credible and which testimony should be admitted. But the truth is, Judge Greer doesn't have the brains to find his ass with both hands. Congress ordered a de novo trial. A federal judge declined the order, just to show Congress which branch was boss. The media jumped on this case to attack Republicans.

I think when Mark Fuhrman's book comes out- public opinion about this case will change. That's my one minute take.


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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim
Old 06-19-2005, 07:57 AM   #67
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

I have a feeling that once people make up their mind about something they rarely seem to change it, even in the face of contrary evidence. They simply don't believe the evidence.

The press is part of this problem. They report as if there is two sides to everything--and don't bother to investigate to see what is based on fact.

We now treat science as if it is presenting one side of an issue, rather than searching for the truth.

Being an intellectual is almost as bad as being a liberal.
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim
Old 06-19-2005, 09:43 AM   #68
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

Quote:
Being an intellectual is almost as bad as being a liberal.
Well if it makes you feel any better, as a conservative I feel similarly demonized by the press, liberals, Democrats, etc. The level of political discourse in most places (this board included) is little more than name calling and ridicule.

So cheer up, things aren't going my way either
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim
Old 06-19-2005, 09:53 AM   #69
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurence
But I shared that info to just give a little perspective so that you knew I wasn't just firing off an ignorant opinion while riding in my limo the the Barbera Striesand concert.*
Speaking of pulling the plug...
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim
Old 06-19-2005, 10:40 AM   #70
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha
The press is part of this problem.* They report as if there is two sides to everything--and don't bother to investigate to see what is based on fact.*
Martha, the liberal media is not only part of the problem- it is the ENTIRE problem. If we had a fair press report this story, the pvs swamp judge of Numbnuts County could never have tortured this girl to death.

GIGO.

When that infamous, distorted single poll came out saying 70% of the public sided with Michel Schiavo, the Republicans ran away like the scared little girls that they are (no offense intended to scared little girls). A subsequent, more fairly worded poll showing opposite results got no play.

I've always hated the liberal media- but in this case- this innocent girl's blood is on their hands.

It is in this context of legal fascism (the best term I can think of when the judicial branch repeatedly defies legal orders from the legislative and executive branches) and political cowardice that I say that Jeb Bush should have shown moral leadership, saved this poor girl, suffered the slings and arrows of the scummy press and corrupt legal system, and let the chips fall where they may.

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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim
Old 06-19-2005, 11:03 AM   #71
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

I knew I shouldn't have joined in. . .

Art said:
Quote:
It is in this context of legal fascism (the best term I can think of when the judicial branch repeatedly defies legal orders from the legislative and executive branches) and political cowardice that I say that Jeb Bush should have shown moral leadership, saved this poor girl, suffered the slings and arrows of the scummy press and corrupt legal system, and let the chips fall where they may.
Sorry Art, the judicial branch did not defy any legal orders. The executive branch can't order the judiciary to do anything. The legislative branch passed a law which said:
The United States District Court for the Middle District of Florida shall have jurisdiction to hear, determine, and render judgment on a suit or claim by or on behalf of Theresa Marie Schiavo for the alleged violation of any right of Theresa Marie Schiavo under the Constitution or laws of the United States relating to the withholding or withdrawal of food, fluids, or medical treatment necessary to sustain her life.


The law went on to state: Nothing in this Act shall be construed to create substantive rights not otherwise secured by the Constitution and laws of the United States or of the several States.

The federal court in Florida did hear the case and found no violation of any of Theresa Schiavo's rights.

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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-19-2005, 11:21 AM   #72
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Martha, you are right. You are absolutely right.

There was 12th hour Congressional legislation that, for all intents and purposes, encouraged the federal appeals court to review the entire trial record. This was not done. Perfectly legal. And obscene.
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-19-2005, 11:37 AM   #73
 
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Art, you are one pugnacious dude!

By the time a thread gets to five pages there's often not much to add.* That said, the politics of this issue escaped me in the beginning, and still does.* The GOP obviously believes this works to their advantage somehow.* Aside from the passions of a handful of whack jobs, I just can't figure out how.
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim
Old 06-19-2005, 11:48 AM   #74
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

No one will accuse Art of being uncaring!

But your right, I think every viewpoint has been hit on this one. I agree to disagree.
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-19-2005, 12:05 PM   #75
 
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Quote:
By the time a thread gets to five pages there's often not much to add. That said, the politics of this issue escaped me in the beginning, and still does. The GOP obviously believes this works to their advantage somehow. Aside from the passions of a handful of whack jobs, I just can't figure out how.
tozz,

My first post on this pretty much explains why the GOP is interested in this.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat


With the Christian Right controlling the nomination process in the GOP, this is the path to the white house. This was the number one Topic when I drove to New Mexico across the West on Right Wing Radio (The only Stations I could find in Neb., Rural Colorado).

These people are really scary!

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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-19-2005, 01:37 PM   #76
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Right C-T...like laurence I've become more and more distant from the folks who stole my political party. Republicans arent conservatives anymore. Conservatives want to keep the government out of the publics life, where it doesnt belong.

The judicial branch makes and executes the law. The legislative branch can make new law. The former did what they were supposed to do. It got reviewed to the nth degree. The latter tried to make new law and it didnt take. Everybody up to the POTUS stuck their nose in and nothing changed. Theres a reason for that.

But Marthas right, this is one of those polar issues where people have their minds made up and there will be no changing that opinion.

I started this discussion to say primarily that I was offended that my tax dollars are going to be spent by a few figureheads of the religious right to further antagonize a citizen who did nothing but follow the law with no value produced other than to make him spend money and prolong what has already been a ridiculous situation.

The suggestion that EVERYBODY involved with this was a liar, cheat, murderer and stupid/criminal vs a conservative, right leaning, christian leaning executive, legislative and judicial system pushing as hard as humanly possible against it (and failing to make a change) just doesnt seem reasonable to me.

But to each their own.
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-20-2005, 09:32 AM   #77
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

"Ultimately, based on the clinical evidence and the autopsy results, an aware woman was killed."

Doh!

Terri's brother and sister were right. The terror they saw in their dying sister's eyes was real.

VIEWER DISCRETION ADVISED:

Reprinted from NewsMax.com

Sunday, June 19, 2005 8:46 p.m. EDT
Doctor: Schiavo Autopsy Conclusions Flawed

Dr. William Hammesfahr, nominated for a Nobel Prize for his work in medicine, has been recognized by agents for Medicare, the federal government, and others for new approaches to helping the brain injured.

Dr. Hammesfahr has been credited with helping patients with chronic brain injuries from many causes actually leave long-term disability and return to work.


Dr. Hammesfahr was identified as the first physician to restore deficits caused by stroke.

Dr. Hammesfahr has released the following statement in response to the autopsy report on Terri Schindler Schiavo:

We have seen a lot on the autopsy of Terri Schindler Schiavo in recent days, that I feel needs to be addressed. To ignore these comments will allow future 'Terri Schiavo's' to die needlessly after the wishes of clinicians and family are ignored.

Considering that there were so many physicians and therapists who were willing to step forward to treat Terri Schiavo, from university based practitioners to those in private practice, it clearly shows that the mainstream medical community across the board, those involved in treating patients, knew that they could help Terri.

The record must be set straight. As we noted in the press, there was no heart attack, or evident reason for this to have happened (and certainly not of Terri's making).

Unlike the constant drumbeat from the husband, his attorneys, and his doctors, the brain tissue was not dissolved, with a head of just spinal fluid. In fact, large areas were "relatively preserved."

The purpose of the therapies offered by so many, from major universities, brain injury centers, and from private practice physicians, is to improve and restore quality of life, and function, which the mainstream medical community clearly tried to get to her.

I have had a chance to look at Dr. Nelson's analysis of the brain tissue, and essentially, as a clinician, these are my thoughts.

The autopsy results confirmed my opinion and Dr. Maxfield's opinions, that the frontal areas of the brains, the areas that deal with awareness and cognition were relatively intact. To use Dr. Nelson's words, "relatively preserved." In fact, the relay areas from the frontal and front temporal regions of the brain, to the spinal cord and the brain stem, by way of the basal ganglia, were preserved, thus the evident responses which she was able to express to her family and to the clinicians seeing her or viewing her videotape. The Spect scan confirmed these areas were functional and not scar tissue, and that was apparently also confirmed on Dr. Nelson's review of the slides. Dr. Maxfield's estimates of retained brain weight were apparently accurate, although there may have been some loss of brain weight due to the last two weeks of dehydration.

Dr. Maxfield and myself both emphasized that she was a woman trapped in her body, similar to a child with cerebral palsy, and that was borne out by the autopsy, showing greater injury in the motor and visual centers of the brain. Obviously, the pathologists comments that she could not see were not borne out by reality, and thus his assessment must represent sampling error. The videotapes clearly showed her seeing, and even Dr. Cranford, for the husband, commented to her that, when she could see the balloon, she could follow it with her eyes as per his request.

That she could not swallow was obviously not borne out by the reality that she was swallowing her saliva, about 1.5 liters per day of liquid, and the clinical swallowing tests done by Dr. Young and Dr. Carpenter. Thus, there appears to be some limitations to the clinical accuracy of an autopsy in evaluating function.

With respect to the issue of trauma, that certainly does not appear to be answered adequately. Some of the types of trauma that are suspected were not adequately evaluated in this assessment. Interestingly, both myself and at least one neurologist for the husband testified to the presence of neck injuries. The issue of a forensic evaluation for trauma, is highly specialized. Hence the wish of the family to have observers which was refused by the examiner.

Ultimately, based on the clinical evidence and the autopsy results, an aware woman was killed.

s/Dr. W. Hammesfahr

[Dr. Hammesfahr was nominated for the Nobel Prize in Medicine and Physiology in 1999. The nomination was for work started in 1994. In 2000, this work resulted in approval for the first patent in history granted for the treatment of neurological diseases including coma, stroke, brain injury, cerebral palsy, hypoxic injuries and other neurovascular disorders with medications that restore blood flow to the brain. It was extended to treat successfully disabilities including ADD, ADHD, dyslexia, Tourette's and autism as well as behaviorally and emotionally disturbed children, seizures and severe migraines.]

Editor's note:
Terri Schiavo - Mark Fuhrman Investigates ... Go Here Now
Hey: Browse NewsMax’s Online Classifieds for Great Offers – Click Here Now!




Read more on this subject in related Hot Topics:
Media Bias
Terri Schiavo


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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-20-2005, 01:49 PM   #78
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Hey Art, didnt you say just a few posts ago that autopsy results werent worth anything?

I finally figured out that this is nothing more than the abortion debate, albeit with a much older 'fetus'. In other words, the facts dont mean anything to either side of the discussion, its an ingrained belief that will find its own supporting proof sources & facts and go from there.
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-20-2005, 02:25 PM   #79
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notth
Hey Art, didnt you say just a few posts ago that autopsy results werent worth anything?
Nope. I never said that, th.

I never said anything that could REMOTELY be confused with that by any OBJECTIVE reader.

What I said to you, twice, and now for the third time, is "Autopsies can't tell you what you are confident they can tell you."

Which, as I already explained to you once before, and Hammesfahr's report should have further clarified for you, meant that autopsies cannot give some info YOU think they can- SOME info can ONLY be obtained by lengthy, clinical exam.

Hammesfahr was the only MD to spend 10 hours with Terri- Dr. Death (Crandall- who I will shed some light on my next post, and who was the MD the swamp judge relied on)- spent 45 minutes with her.

As for this being about abortion, I have no desire to make it illegal (except for partial-birth abortion). I am pro-stem cell research, as well.

Based on the high number of visits to this thread, I intend to make two further posts:

1) About Dr. Death... so the audience can decide for themselves about the caliber of the opposing neurologists (Hammesfahr vs. Crandall).

2) Fun Facts about the night of Terri's collapse, the police report, the timeline, and strangulation- which you won't find in the liberal media.

And Th, I like and respect you. This is NOT personally directed towards YOU or anyone here, just to be clear. But I'll post what I believe to be true as I've done so far, and if anyone has a problem with it, they are free to ignore it, attack me or my posts, or arrange to have me thrown off the board. Doesn't bother me a bit.



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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-20-2005, 02:29 PM   #80
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art
autopsies cannot give some info YOU think they can- SOME info can ONLY be obtained by lengthy, clinical exam.
Perhaps this is the problem:

Clinical exams, unlike autopsies, can only be conducted on living individuals.
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