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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-20-2005, 02:40 PM   #81
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Hey art...nothing personal here either. I'm just a dick sometimes.

I didnt know much about this when it started hitting the news hard. I decided I should. I read everything I could get my hands on. I came away with the impressions that I've got while noting the very very emotionally strong opposition feelings.

In most matters like this, I choose to keep government out of our lives and let the laws rule the roost. If I really dont like something, I press to change the law. I try not to question the validity of the law for a particular instance that I dont think applies, or to question the people appointed to execute the law. They're electable/appointable and usually fireable if they consistently do a suck job.

If this was one guy who pulled something and before anyone could do anything about it, something bad was done and regrets were widely felt, I'd feel differently about it. Any "science" applied is squishy and malleable, and its unlikely any of it is sure. The rest is opinion and emotion.

I'm also not a big fan of petty vengeance or boiling myself in oil over the past. Its over. If the preponderance of people dont like what happened, the law will change. The people who executed it will change.
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-20-2005, 03:21 PM   #82
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arin38

At any rate, if I was in her condition, I would like to die (be killed, starved, pick a word) as soon as possible. I can't recall a single person that I have spoken with wanting to be kept alive in this or a similar situation.
Yes, as healthy people, we all say the same thing and believe it from the bottom of our hearts.

And yet, the people who care for these people- and many others in horrible sitiuations (MDs, nurses, etc.) say the human spirit often can adapt in ways we find hard to believe- and once many (not all, certainly) of these people get past the initial shock and grief- they do NOT want to die. And IMveryHO... we should not MAKE them die, barring written evidence that this was what they really would want- or concensus from the family (and by family- I exclude 'conflicted' family members, such as estranged husbands with common law wives and kids, for example... another example of a 'conflicted' family member would be a spouse who may well have strangled the patient to the point of brain damage in the first place. )

If this were not true- the change in our beliefs about what quality of life we'd accept once our quality of life REALLY DOES diminish- there would be no MDs specializing in Rehabilitation Medicine- they'd starve to death for lack of patients.
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim
Old 06-20-2005, 03:50 PM   #83
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notth
I'm also not a big fan of petty vengeance or boiling myself in oil over the past.
What if it's Fish Oil?
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-20-2005, 07:15 PM   #84
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Not even if its fish oil. Wel maybe if its 100% virgin first cold pressed salmon oil from wild salmon who have only swum in waters just released from an icebergy and plankton dropped from that same iceberg.

Well heres a new quandry then Art...you are concerned about illegal alien health care (and I showed you mine without you showing me yours), which by statistic is a very small part of health care costs.

But keeping people on life support and in vegetative states IS what is the very lions share of insurers health care costs. Letting people die a natural death who would not persist without heroic ongoing efforts is as much as 80% of total healthcare costs.
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-20-2005, 07:57 PM   #85
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Yes, I owe you some research on the costs of illegal aliens' health care (that $1B your article referenced was a VERY recent development) and I'll do it as soon as I can. Some of us still have to work for a living and I want to get these last two Schiavo posts done first this week.

But I don't want to see us starve/dehydrate AWARE people to death. I don't think most Americans do. I don't think most Americans know she died AWARE- none of the liberal media commented on Hammesfahr's report today. Her REAL family was convinced she wanted to live, and so am I from all I've seen, and I think what happened was an atrocity that should never happen again, and I know you disagree.

And as Hammesfahr clearly pointed out- she was NOT in a vegetative state. She was AWARE.
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-20-2005, 09:08 PM   #86
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

In his *opinion*. As you pointed out, nobody knows whats going on in a working brain, let alone a damaged one.

Pick a topic, pick a pile of data, pick what level of expert you want to testify in court that the data you have proves whatever point you wish proved on that topic. I'll find a guy who will take the money and make a case. With a pedigree that'll knock your socks off.
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-20-2005, 09:23 PM   #87
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notth
As you pointed out, nobody knows whats going on in a working brain, let alone a damaged one.
When did I say or imply that?

There are COMPETENT neurologists. There are STARS like Hammesfahr. There are INCOMPETENT/AGENDA-DRIVEN neurologists like Crandall, that the INCOMPETENT swamp judge believed.

None of them know it all. But the competent ones, and the stars- know their limits. It's the incompetent, SUPREMELY ARROGANT ones like Crandall that shoot first and ask questions later, and pretend they are 100% sure- and then get proven wrong later (as in this case, and at least one other I'll tell you about) that you need to worry about.

I totally reject this notion that there are no medical facts, there's only opinion, and all medical opinions are equally valid.

After my Crandall post, tell me you'd entrust YOUR loved one to HIS care rather than Hammesfahr's.


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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-20-2005, 11:19 PM   #88
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art
When did I say or imply that?
You said
Quote:
The human brain has much redundancy and new pathways form that defy explanation. Great neurologists don't pretend they know and can explain it all.
Yet this 'great' neurologist somehow explains and knows it all.

By the way, his nobel nomination was written recently by a republican lawmaker (what a freakin surprise) that is not qualified to make such a nomination. But it makes good press for now. I've reviewed the good doctors qualifications. He's no more or less qualified to make a certain call from a bunch of photos, regardless of how many hours he looked at them, than bill frist was. He's just another pretty face.

But if that face is mouthing the words you want to hear...
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-20-2005, 11:41 PM   #89
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Art - read this...not that I honestly think it'll change your feelings.* In a nutshell, the doctor who contradicts the autopsy findings has been censured by the medical communuty, was put up by a republican house member of the state of florida for his 'nobel nomination' (who is not even authorized to make nobel nominations), and was hired by terri's parents.* This is not an "out of the box" expert that can slam-dunk deny what is already on the record with regards to her condition.* He's a patsy expert signed up to say what he said.

TUESDAY, MARCH 22, 2005

THE TWO AMERICAS: What are the two Americas? In this morning’s Washington Post, a front-page news story purports to list elementary facts in the Schiavo case. The reporter is Manuel Roig-Franzia:
ROIG-FRANZIA (3/22/05): Terri Schiavo, whose husband said she had bulimia, suffered severe brain damage after a potassium imbalance caused a heart attack in 1990. Her husband and her parents have been locked in a legal battle since 1998 that has bounced through at least a dozen and a half courtrooms...
One America reads those facts. Terri Schiavo suffered brain damage as the result of a heart attack. But last night, visitors to Scarborough Country heard a different set of facts. Cable viewers live in one America, newspaper readers in another.
What did Scarborough viewers hear? Scarborough introduced a neurologist named William Hammesfahr—a man whom Scarborough twice described as a “nominee for the Nobel Prize.” And Hammesfahr, the brilliant Nobel nominee, completely contradicted Roig-Franzia. (Hammesfahr has provided expert testimony on behalf of Terri Schiavo’s parents.) Terri Schiavo did not have a heart attack, he said. She never had an eating disorder. And she isn’t in a persistent vegetative state. In fact, according to Hammesfahr, Terri Schiavo can “stand up or sit up and can sort of moan and make sounds that get [her] wishes known.” Indeed, “she follows a lot of commands,” the brilliant Nobel nominee said. At one point, Hammesfahr and Scarborough even shared a good laugh about Terri Schiavo’s condition:

HAMMESFAHR (3/21/05): It`s interesting. She actually responds to people in different ways. When I went in initially, she acknowledged my presence and then ignored me, as she ignored her husband and she also ignored the videographer.
SCARBOROUGH: Well, that`s what my children do all the time. They ignore me.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Playfully, Terri Schiavo had just ignored everybody! Just the way kids sometimes do!
Soon after, Hammesfahr gave his overall view of the case, which his host had summarized earlier in the program. According to Scarborough’s accurate summary, Hammesfahr “says [Michael Schiavo] is pulling a huge hoax simply to kill his wife!” If you live in non-cable America, you probably should read it in full:

SCARBOROUGH: Well, how did she get in this bad of a situation if she didn`t have a heart attack?
HAMMESFAHR: Well, we don`t really know. What we do know is that she was—she apparently told her family she was going to leave Michael. And they asked that she not return to him that night. And the next morning, she is found face down on the floor unresponsive. The ambulance—

SCARBOROUGH: I have got to stop you there. Who told you that?

HAMMESFAHR: That`s in the record, the medical and legal record. So, we know that for a fact. And then she was taken into—

SCARBOROUGH: Are you suggesting foul play here?

HAMMESFAHR: I`m suggesting that an investigation needs to be done of this case.

SCARBOROUGH: Doctor, thanks for being with us. Explosive allegations.

What are the two Americas? If you read the Washington Post, you read about a woman who had a heart attack and suffered brain damage in the process. In Scarborough Country, you hear something else. You meet an impressive Nobel nominee—and he makes “explosive allegations.” He tells you she had no such heart attack. Instead, he suggests she was strangled by her husband.
These two Americas have existed for years. If you live in cable America, you routinely hear whole sets of things that never appear in the Washington Post, things that the Washington Post rarely attempts to discuss, describe or debate. Cable viewers live in one world; newspaper readers exist in another. Newspaper readers rarely hear what’s being said in the other America. And for that reason, people who live in the cable America sometimes get played for plain fools.

Like last night, for example. Consider the impressive Hammesfahr, the brilliant Nobel Prize nominee. Here’s what we found when we ran a search: Three years ago, David Sommer of the St. Petersburg Times reported that Hammesfahr “advertises himself as a nominee for a Nobel Prize based on a letter his congressman wrote to the Nobel committee.” Yes, Hammesfahr was “nominated” for the Nobel Prize by his Republican congressman, Peter Bilirakis, back in 1999! And uh-oh! In 2003, William Levesque of the St. Peterburg Times described more of Hammesfahr’s brilliance:

LEVESQUE (10/25/03): In a 2002 order by Pinellas-Pasco Circuit Judge George Greer ruling that Mrs. Schiavo could not recover, Greer labeled Hammesfahr a "self-promoter."
The judge noted that Hammesfahr testified that he had treated patients worse off than Mrs. Schiavo yet "offered no names, no case studies, no videos and no test results to support his claim."

Of course, viewers weren’t told that in Scarborough Country, just as they weren’t told that the brilliant expert’s “Nobel nomination” came from his local Republican hack. We’ve lived in two Americas for years. This week has been no exception.
AND NOW FOR THE REST OF THE STORY: Does Terri Schiavo respond to commands, as cable America heard last night? In 2003, Stephen Nohlgren of the St. Petersburg Times reported on a Schiavo court hearing. Tapes had been played in court. In the tapes, a “Nobel nominee” tried to elicit response:

NOHLGREN (11/10/03): The single most dramatic moment occurred when William Hammesfahr, a Clearwater neurologist picked by the Schindlers, asked Schiavo to open her eyes.
At first, her eyelids barely flutter. She slowly turns her head toward Hammesfahr, gradually opening her eyes. Then her eyebrows lift into an exaggerated arch—the kind of face a cartoonist might draw to show astonishment.

A lay person could easily conclude that she somehow tapped into a latent reservoir of cognition, even if just for a second. Hammesfahr and her parents bubble with excitement.

"Good job!" the doctor exults. "Good job, young lady!"

But she never pulls it off again, or anything remotely like it. For nearly an hour, her parents and the doctor tell her to open her eyes, close her eyes, look this way, look that way—with little apparent response.

Judge Greer counted.

"By the court's count, (Hammesfahr) gave 105 commands to Terri Schiavo and, at his direction, Mrs. Schindler gave an additional six commands," Greer wrote. "He asked her 61 questions and Mrs. Schindler asked her an additional 11 questions. The court saw few actions that could be considered responsive to either those commands or those questions."

In cable America, viewers weren’t asked to hear about that. Hustlers like Scarborough know a good story. And they know facts can mess such tales up.
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-21-2005, 12:30 AM   #90
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Th, "nobody knows whats going on in a working brain, let alone a damaged one (your interpretation of what I said)" IS NOT THE SAME AS "The human brain has much redundancy and new pathways form that defy explanation. Great neurologists don't pretend they know and can explain it all (which is what I said)."

Next.

"Dr. William Hammesfahr, nominated for a Nobel Prize for his work in medicine, has been recognized by agents for Medicare, the federal government, and others for new approaches to helping the brain injured.

"Dr. Hammesfahr has been credited with helping patients with chronic brain injuries from many causes actually leave long-term disability and return to work.

"Dr. Hammesfahr was identified as the first physician to restore deficits caused by stroke."

Prove the above stated FACTS are lies (forget the Nobel nomination- it is irrelevant). If you can, I'll look at this guy very differently. But not until then.

I saw the Scarborough interview. I've read the smears. You're right- I'm not impressed.

I've heard some of her aides/nurses say that her husband ordered (yes, ordered) her "medicated" at times (he ran the show very tightly in all her facilities, according to the nurses- they all said they were scared to death of his temper) a lot of the time- which may explain her poor performance on that ONE exam Greer saw- he should have seen MANY exams over a long period of time.

But on other exams, she was clearly responsive.

Wait til you read about Crandall.


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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-21-2005, 08:34 AM   #91
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Ah yes - the joy of killing!

It makes me warm and fuzzy all over to know as an American taxpayer I'm 'shooting the buffalo' and starving an Indian somewhere.

!. Mississippi - I believe now has 600/month max income to qualify for Medicaid.
2. Try to find on the web - where prisoners get free medical care - while they don't talk about sending 'old prisoners home to die' - off their nickle and onto presumibly another agency's budget.
3. I read on another forum - where the govt(read taxpayer) pays for 40% of all medical in the U.S. currently.
4. Caught Pete Peterson on Charlie Rose a while back - since the bulk of Medicare $ are spent in the last six months of life - the odious task of picking who gets what will fall on the poor frontline troops - under increasing stricter guidelines as the money gets tight.
5. I remember a grumpy old Brit engineer in the 70's who told me when money got tight - they put you in a low cost home, pumped you with good drugs and you sat around the piano and sang happy songs till you croaked - He wasn't a fan of national health.

But there is good news - The SO's union policy has another 950k to go before she hits her 1 mil lifetime cap.

The step daughter in spare room gets Medicare in six months(2 yr waiting period) so she gets off the charity system(state) and onto federal(bigger taypayer pool) - they may actually operate on her ankle so she can get back to work.

My 88 year old Mom wants to die at home(no long term care insurance) - and is in fair health.

And, and - my Doc last week knocked 40 bucks off my annual face time - cause I paid cash - not as cheap a Medicare(Mom's bill) - but progress.

Is this a great country or what?

Heh, heh, heh, heh - the whole medical dealy o is 'the' topic of our generation - given the shear force of demographics.

Doesn't it make you warm and fuzzy as a taxpayer you have plausible denibility and are pulling the plug on somebody somewhere as I post.

I can hardly wait for my time in the box.
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-21-2005, 09:18 AM   #92
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Dr. Cheshire, a Mayo Clinic Neurologist, agrees with Dr. Hammesfahr and Dr. Maxfield that Terri Schiavo was NOT VEGETATIVE (PVS) as the public was repeatedly told by ABCCBSNBCCNNMSNBC and the rest of the lying scumbag liberal media... but was instead MINIMALLY CONSCIOUS (AWARE).

Dr. Bell, a Wake Forest Neurology professor, said, of Dr. Death's PVS diagnosis based on Dr. Death's 45 minute exam: "You can't do this. To make a diagnosis of PVS based on one examination is fallacious."

Dr. Death (Crandall- PAID FOR BY MICHAEL SCHIAVO) disagrees. He's the one that shoots first, and apologizes later (read about his diagnosis of David Mack below under "Waking Up").

He's the one the legally blind PVS swamp judge relied on to murder Terri Schiavo.


From NewsMax.com:


Medical Record in Sorry State


Dr. Hammesfahr stated that the medical record was in a state of shambles when it was handed over, that it was out of order by date, and that much of the medical record was never given to the Schindlers or Dr. Hammesfahr! Dr. Hammesfahr stated that there are notes in the medical record by nurses who were NOT working at the time they stated they were caring for Terri. Also, Dr. Hammesfahr stated that parts of the medical record were completely missing!



In an affidavit submitted at the request of Florida Governor Jeb Bush on March 23, 2005, Dr. William Polk Cheshire, a renowned neurologist at the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, Florida, stated that he had examined Terri Schiavo and that "based on my review of extensive medical records documenting Terri's care over the years and on my personal observations of Terri, and on my observations of Terri's responses in many hours of videotapes taken in 2002, she demonstrates a number of behaviors that I believe cast a reasonable doubt on the prior diagnosis of PVS. These include:


1. Her behavior is frequently context-specific. For example, her facial expression brightens and she smiles in response to the voice of familiar persons such as her parents or her nurse. Her agitation subsides and her facial demeanor softens when quiet music is played. When jubilant piano music is played her face brightens, she lifts her eyebrows smiles and even laughs. Her later gaze towards a tape player is sustained for many minutes. Several times I witnessed Terri briefly, albeit inconsistently, laugh in response to a humorous comment someone in the room had made. I did not see her laugh in the absence of someone else's laughter.

2. Although she does not seem to track or follow visual objects consistently or for long periods of time, she does fixate her gaze on colorful objects or human faces for some 15 seconds at a time and occasionally follows with her eyes at least briefly as these objects move from side to side. When I first walked into her room, she immediately [turned] her head toward me and looked directly at my face. There was a look of curiosity or expectation in her expression and she maintained eye contact for about half a minute. Later when she again looked at me, she brought her lips together as if to pronounce the letter "O," and although for a moment it appeared that she might be making an intentional efforts to speak, he face fell blank and no words came out.

3. Although I did not hear Terri utter distinct words, she demonstrates emotional expressivity by her use of single syllable vocalizations such as "ah," making cooing sounds, or by expressing gutteral sounds of annoyance or moaning appropriate to the context of the situation. The context-specific range and variability of her vocalizations suggests at least a reasonable probability of the processing of emotional thought within her brain. There have been reports of Terri rarely using actual words specific to her situational context. The July 25, 2003 affidavit of speech pathologist Sara Green Mele MS on page 6 reads "The records of Mediplex reflect the fact that she has said 'stop' in apparent response to a medical procedure done to her." The Adult Protective Services team has been unable to retrieve those original medical records in this instance."


Dr. Cheshire cites observations of Dr. Hammesfahr when Terri obeyed his instructions to raise her right leg "four times in succession each time she was asked to do so." Dr. Hammesfahr also cites an instance when Terri showed she could anticipate pain.


"There is a remarkable moment in the videotape of the September 3, 2002 examination by Dr. Hammesfahr that seemed to go unnoticed at the time," Dr. Cheshire reported. "At 2:44 p.m. Dr. Hammesfahr had just turned Terri onto her right side to examine her back with a painful sharp stimulus (a sharp piece of wood), to which Terri had responded with signs of discomfort. Well after he ceased applying the stimulus and had returned Terri to a comfortable position he says to her parents, 'So, we're going to have to roll her over.' Immediately Terri cries. She vocalizes a crying sound "Ugh, ha ha haa,' presses her eyebrows together, and sadly grimaces. It is important to note that, at that moment, no one is touching Terri or causing actual pain. Rather, she appears to comprehend the meaning of Dr. Hammesfahr's comment and signals her anticipation of pain. This response suggests some degree of processing and interpretation at the level of the cerebral cortex. It also suggests that she may be aware of pain beyond what could be explained by simple reflex withdrawal."


Pain and Suffering


Dr. Cheshire goes on the explain that according to the definition of PVS published by the American Academy of Neurology, "persistent vegetative state patients do not have the capacity to experience pain or suffering. Pain and suffering are attributes of consciousness requiring cerebral cortical functioning and patients who are permanently and completely unconscious cannot experience these symptoms."


Adds Dr, Cheshire: "And yet in my review of Terri's medical records, pain issues keep surfacing. The nurses at Woodside Hospice told us that she often has pain with menstrual cramps. Menstrual flow is associated with agitation, repeated or sustained moaning, facial grimacing, limb posturing, and facial flushing, all of which subside once she is given ibuprofen. Some of the records document moaning, crying and other painful behavior in the setting of urinary tract infections."


Dr. Cheshire summarizes: "Teri Schiavo demonstrates behaviors in a variety of cognitive domains that call into question the previous neurological diagnosis of persistent vegetative state. Specifically she has demonstrated behaviors that are context-specific, sustained, and indicative of cerebral cortical processing that, upon careful neurologic consideration, would not be expected in a persistent vegetative state.


'Minimally Conscious'


"Based on this evidence, I believe that within a reasonable degree of medical certainty that Terri is in a minimally conscious state than in a persistent vegetative state."


Keep in mind that both Doctors Cheshire and Hammesfahr personally examined Terri for many hours while she was alive. Neither Dr. Thogmartin nor Dr. Nelson had ever seen Terri when she was alive, and both admit that nothing in the autopsy could possible show that he was in PVS. Yet they both guess that she was. And the media ate it up.


Moreover, Dr. Ronald Cranford, the doctor who made the PVS diagnosis for Michael Schiavo and the expert relied on by the court, examined Terri on one occasion, for approximately 45 minutes. Another doctor for Michael Schiavo, Dr. Peter Bambikidis of the Cleveland Clinic Foundation in Ohio, examined Terri for about half an hour.


When Dr. Dr. William Bell, a professor of neurology at Wake Forest University Medical School, learned of the cursory nature of these exams, he told Reverend Robert Johansen: "You can't do this. To make a diagnosis of PVS based on one examination is fallacious."


Writing in National Review, Rev. Johanson reported that in Cranford's examination, described by one witness as "brutal," he discounted evidence under his own eyes of Terri's responsiveness. At one point, Dr. Cranford struck Terri very hard on the forehead between her eyes. Terri recoiled and moaned, seemingly in pain. In his court testimony, Cranford dismissed the reaction and moan as a "reflex."


Adds Johanson: "Dr. Cranford was the principal medical witness brought in by Schiavo and Felos to support their position that Terri was PVS. Judge Greer was obviously impressed by Cranford's résumé: Cranford travels throughout the country testifying in cases involving PVS and brain impairment. He is widely recognized by courts as an expert in these issues, and in some circles is considered "the" expert on PVS. His clinical judgment has carried the day in many cases, so it is relevant to examine the manner in which he arrived at his judgment in Terri's case. But before that, one needs to know a little about Cranford's background and perspective: Dr. Ronald Cranford is one of the most outspoken advocates of the 'right to die' movement and of physician-assisted suicide in the U.S. today.


"In published articles, including a 1997 op-ed in the Minneapolis-St. Paul Star Tribune, he has advocated the starvation of Alzheimer's patients. He has described PVS patients as indistinguishable from other forms of animal life. He has said that PVS patients and others with brain impairment lack personhood and should have no constitutional rights. Perusing the case literature and articles surrounding the 'right to die' and PVS, one will see Dr. Cranford's name surface again and again. In almost every case, he is the one claiming PVS, and advocating the cessation of nutrition and hydration.


"In the cases of Paul Brophy, Nancy Jobes, Nancy Cruzan, and Christine Busalucci, Cranford was the doctor behind the efforts to end their lives. Each of these people was brain-damaged but not dying; nonetheless, he advocated death for all, by dehydration and starvation. Nancy Cruzan did not even require a feeding tube: She could be spoon-fed. But Cranford advocated denying even that, saying that even spoon-feeding constituted "medical treatment" that could be licitly withdrawn.


"In cases where other doctors don't see it, Dr. Cranford seems to have a knack for finding PVS. Cranford also diagnosed Robert Wendland as PVS. He did so in spite of the fact that Wendland could pick up specifically colored pegs or blocks and hand them to a therapy assistant on request. He did so in spite of the fact that Wendland could operate and maneuver an ordinary wheelchair with his left hand and foot, and an electric wheelchair with a joystick, of the kind that many disabled persons (most famously Dr. Stephen Hawking) use. Dr. Cranford dismissed these abilities as meaningless. Fortunately for Wendland, the California supreme court was not persuaded by Cranford's assessment."


Waking Up


Cranford once diagnosed Minneapolis Police Sgt. David Mack as PVS, stating, "Sergeant Mack will never regain cognitive, sapient functioning," the sergeant's relatives removed him from a respirator. Mack lived and, 18 months later (two years after his head injury) woke up.


According to CNS News Service reporter, Jeff Johnson: "Cranford insisted at the time that his initial diagnosis was correct. There is no doubt in the world that he was in the persistent vegetative state," Cranford said of Mack in a 1981 interview. "He had no interaction with the environment."


In an interview with Cybercast News Service, Cranford acknowledged a "mistake," but maintained that his original assessment of Mack was accurate.


"At the time I said that, he was in a vegetative state," Cranford said. "But, I did make that misstatement about Sgt. Mack and I was wrong and I did make a mistake in that case."


Although the Schindler's lawyer David Gibbs provided 33 affidavits submitted by other medical experts questioning the PVS diagnosis, Judge Greer refused to admit them as evidence.


Noting that the report stated that Terri had suffered irreversible brain damage, Not Dead Yet, a national disability rights group said that the autopsy report's documentation of significant brain atrophy and the assessment that the damage is "irreversible" is not the same as saying she had no cognitive ability, the group pointed out.


"It's always seemed to us that PVS isn't really a diagnosis; it's a value judgment masquerading as a diagnosis," said Stephen Drake, research analyst for Not Dead Yet. "When it comes to the hard science, no qualified pathologist went on the record saying she couldn't think or couldn't experience her own death through dehydration."


All of the evidence suggests that Terri Schiavo was in a minimally conscious state, and not in a persistent vegetative one.

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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-21-2005, 09:28 AM   #93
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

TH and Art,

I appreciate both your persistance in defending your positions, and your energetic use of "sources" to back your respective positions.

Having said that, the more I read, the more all of the sources in this incident seem like "spin doctors", and my BS meter is pegging...
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim
Old 06-21-2005, 09:32 AM   #94
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

Quote:
Originally Posted by Have Funds, Will Retire
TH and Art,

I appreciate both your persistance in defending your positions, and your energetic use of "sources" to back your respective positions.

Having said that, the more I read, the more all of the sources in this incident seem like "spin doctors", and my BS meter is pegging...
Agreed. Don't like the answer? Another "expert" will be along in 5 minutes.

This is a strong message to get your "Living Wills", and "Durable Power of Attorney for Healthcare" in place.

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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-21-2005, 09:56 AM   #95
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

I know what you mean about spin, BS, and another expert...

Maybe this will help some people see things differently, don't know...

From my last post, in case you missed it:

"Although the Schindler's lawyer David Gibbs provided 33 affidavits submitted by other medical experts questioning the PVS diagnosis, Judge Greer refused to admit them as evidence. "

Just as he dismissed the testimony of numerous nurses and health care workers.

This legal giant (a two-bit probate county judge in real life) killed this girl on the basis of Michael Schiavo's "sudden recall" lies... and his Doctor, the PVS King, Crandall.

Everyone else was lying or incompetent.

And our glorious legal saystem rubber-stamped his decision PROCEDURALLY all the way up the chain- without ONCE reviewing his atrocious judgment by doing a de novo trial, as authorized by congress.

But at least, legally speaking, all the i's were dotted and the t's were crossed, and for many people- that all that matters.

Anyway, after my next and last post within the next day or so, I'll be done.

And it's not like anyone's holding a gun to your head and forcing you to read this crap, right?
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim
Old 06-21-2005, 11:11 AM   #96
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

I already have my "Durable Power of Martha for Healthcare" in place. Plus, cloth diapers
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim
Old 06-21-2005, 11:20 AM   #97
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

I'm pulling the plug.
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-21-2005, 11:30 AM   #98
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Heh, heh, heh

Now that Deep Throat - aka "follow the money" has been unmasked - I'll have to be my own cynic.

I notice - now that the easy money has been spent(aka insurance) - Ms Terry's pin got pulled relatively quickly.

Now Gov Jeff is trying another pot of money. I wonder how we get our hands on that spending. Oh boy oh boy - to be an 'expert' - wonder who is paying whom.

BTY - we gave the Baton Rouge serial killer a 'free taxpayer heart operation' so he could stand trial and get convicted. That and the cost of trial - caused a little grumpiness among some taxpayers.

Here's to a long and healthy ER - and perhaps a bottle of vodka and a snowbank.

BTY - my medical health directive - "I have no insurance and my money is hidden with Huey Long's - Deduct Box. Revive me and I might pay you."

I lie - heh, heh, heh.
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-21-2005, 12:41 PM   #99
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Have Funds, Will Retire
TH and Art,

I appreciate both your persistance in defending your positions, and your energetic use of "sources" to back your respective positions.

Having said that, the more I read, the more all of the sources in this incident seem like "spin doctors", and my BS meter is pegging...
Then my mission is done, because thats exactly the point. You have huge political engines here scrabbling up whoever will say what they want them to say. Having an impressive resume isnt that impressive.

Particularly when your constituency doesnt really care who or what is saying what they want to hear.

I think the big turning point for me when I read all of the material on the case had little to do with Terri. Right after the big cash settlement was reached, her parents caught up with the husband at the hospital in Terri's room. According to healthcare workers who were present, the parents (without so much as a glance at Terri) approached the husband and started talking about the money. Supposedly Terri and the husband had lived with the parents for a while and the husband had made some comment about 'We'll pay you back for this'. Well they wanted the payback. When the husband demurred, the parents started the fight.

It wasnt over her care, it was over money. She was the unwilling pawn in the middle.

Thats what makes it really sad.
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..
Old 06-21-2005, 12:52 PM   #100
 
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Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

Ditto.

By all accounts, parents and hubby were very close up until the settlement.* This, to me, is what belies all the whacko right "Terri was murdered" theories.* The parents would have sniffed that out early on.*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notth
It wasnt over her care, it was over money.* She was the unwilling pawn in the middle. Thats what makes it really sad.
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