Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another animal..

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With the Christian Right controlling the nomination process in the GOP, this is the path to the white house. This was the number one Topic when I drove to New Mexico across the West on Right Wing Radio (The only Stations I could find in Neb., Rural Colorado).

These people are really scary! :crazy:
 
Would it be wrong to try to try to duplicate Terri Schiavo's 'Immaculate Brain Ischemia' by chaining Michael Schiavo to a bed and forcefully applying a pillow over his face until no vital signs can be found, and then waiting an hour before attempting to resuscitate him?
 
So Art...are you saying that for years now no apparent crime worth investigating was evident, but now that its been clearly proved that she WAS brain damaged and a court agreed that taking her off life support was her final wish, that maybe making the husband pay out another $10k in legal fees to prove he didnt do anything wrong is warranted? Just to show what happens when you cross the govt while they're trying to meddle in affairs that are none of their business? ;)

Nice animation CT.
 
Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

kill me now
 
Notth said:
So Art...are you saying that for years now no apparent crime worth investigating was evident
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Not at all. This thing should have been investigated that night properly- it never was. Do it now, if only to piss off Terri's murderer one more time.
 
Would it be wrong to try to duplicate Terri Schiavo's 'Immaculate Brain Ischemia' by chaining Art to a bed and forcefully applying a pillow over his face until no vital signs can be found, and then waiting an hour before attempting to resuscitate him?

Of course not. If it can prove a point I say let's do it.
 
Art said:
Not at all. This thing should have been investigated that night properly- it never was. Do it now, if only to piss off Terri's murderer one more time.
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Huh. Last time I checked her husband turned the decision over to a court, who proceeded independently in applying the very highest and most stringent proofs to determine her wishes, then issued an order to have those wishes carried out as defined by laws passed in their state.

I must have misread the news story. From what you're saying Jeb must have ordered the prosecutor to investigate the judge involved? Or the state legislature that passed the set of laws that were applied?

By the way, there was an investigation and it was closed with no appearance of foul play found.

I'm thinking they were hoping the autopsy would say there wasnt any brain damage or that she might have recovered. Wondering what they would have done in those circumstances.

I just hope to god if I become a veg that the feds dont try to come to my rescue to keep me "alive" when I dont want to be.
 
Notth said:
Last time I checked her husband turned the decision over to a court, who proceeded independently in applying the very highest and most stringent proofs
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Yes, "the very highest and most stringent proofs", indeed... namely, the word of her murderer and his siblings as to what her wishes were. What else could any legally blind, brain-dead Florida swamp judge ask for?

Meanwhile, we have the nurses (plural) on tv who swear that when they dealt with her murderer in the early years, over a period of many months- he told them HE HAD NO IDEA WHAT HER WISHES WERE BECAUSE THEY NEVER DISCUSSED IT. Once he won the malpractice award, he had 'Immaculate Total Recall'.
 
Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

Trumped up BS, people lie to get on T.V.

100,000+ dead Iraquis and almost 2000 dead Americans and this is what we are using taxpayer dollars on.

Culture of life my a**.
 
Hey Art! - I see no difference between you guys and the Taliban. :cool:
 
Art said:
and then waiting an hour before attempting to resuscitate him?
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According to the timeline of Terri's collapse, it took her dearly beloved husband an hour to call 911 after she stopped breathing. Just wanted to clarify that reference from my first post.
 
Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

Art...you might actually read the facts before forming an opinion.

“...that the trier of fact and the evidence that served as the basis for the decisions regarding Theresa Schiavo were firmly grounded within Florida statutory and case law, which clearly and unequivocally provide for the removal of artificial nutrition in cases of persistent vegetative states, where there is no advance directive, through substituted/proxy judgment of the guardian and/or the court as guardian, and with the use of evidence regarding the medical condition and the intent of the parties that was deemed, by the trier of fact to be clear and convincing.”

His testimony with regards to her wishes was all but irrelevant. The state law clearly delineated what was to be done and the court acted as her guardian in ordering the law to be carried out.

I do have to admit that I dont know Terri's husband or any of the other people who testified to her wishes, as irrelevant as that testimony was, so I cant make any statements with regards to their truthfullness.

How and from where do you know these people, and what were the circumstances that you experienced first hand that led you to believe they are liars?

The entire statement issued by her court appointed guardian can be read here
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/schiavo/1203galrpt.pdf
 
Art said:
According to the timeline of Terri's collapse, it took her dearly beloved husband an hour to call 911 after she stopped breathing. Just wanted to clarify that reference from my first post.
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Actually...no. There are several sources as to the amount of time between her accident and the 911 call that vary. Experts testified that had the call been made more than a few minutes after the accident, that she would have been long dead when the medical team arrived. Forty minutes to an hour would have been impossible.
 
Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

Notth said:
His testimony with regards to her wishes was all but irrelevant.  The state law clearly delineated what was to be done and the court acted as her guardian in ordering the law to be carried out.
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You are mistaken. The judge did not order her feeding tube removed because state law compelled him to do so. He ordered it removed because her legal guardian, Michael Schiavo, told the judge that these were her previously stated wishes, and on that basis, in the absence of written instructions from Terri, her feeding tube was ordered removed.
.
 
Re: Apparently we're going to beat this dead horse until it becomes another anim

Art said:
You are mistaken. The judge did not order her feeding tube removed because state law compelled him to do so. He ordered it removed because her legal guardian, Michael Schiavo, told the judge that these were her previously stated wishes, and on that basis, in the absence of written instructions from Terri, her feeding tube was ordered removed.
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OK Art, You've convinced me! - I'm gonna start watching Fox News and the Rush Limbaugh show. I'm gonna mend my liberal ways and join the neocon movement.

Killing Arabs and saving any White American in a vegetative state! Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition! :LOL:
 
Art said:
You are mistaken. The judge did not order her feeding tube removed because state law compelled him to do so. He ordered it removed because her legal guardian, Michael Schiavo, told the judge that these were her previously stated wishes, and on that basis, in the absence of written instructions from Terri, her feeding tube was ordered removed.
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I'm sorry to have thrown out any facts that may have confused your opinion art...

Second district court opinion: "We note that the guardianship court's original order expressly relied upon and found credible the testimony of witnesses other than Mr. Schiavo or the Schindlers. We recognize that Mrs. Schiavo's earlier oral statements were important evidence when deciding whether she would choose in February 2000 to withdraw life-prolonging procedures. See § 765.401(3), Fla. Stat. (2000); In re Guardianship of Browning, 568 So. 2d 4, 16. Nevertheless, the trial judge, acting as her proxy, also properly considered evidence of Mrs. Schiavo's values, personality, and her own decision-making process."

All liars I'm sure.

With regards to her original death cause:

"The cause of the cardiac arrest was adduced to a dramatically reduced potassium level in Theresa's body. Sodium and potassium maintain a vital, chemical balance in the human body that helps define the electrolyte levels. The cause of the imbalance was not clearly identified, but may be linked, in theory, to her drinking 10-15 glasses of iced tea each day. While no formal proof emerged, the medical records note that the combination of [Theresa's] aggressive weight loss, diet control and excessive hydration raised questions about Theresa from Bulimia, an eating disorder, more common among women than men, in which purging through vomiting, laxatives and other methods of diet control become obsessive."

So her husband apparently withheld food from her, forced her to vomit, and forced her to drink 15 glasses of iced tea per day for many months, until she suffered cardiac arrest.

Dastardly, sneaky man. I hope they throw the book at him.
 
Last little tidbit...

"Michael Schiavo did not make the decision to discontinue life-prolonging measures for Terri.

As Terri's husband, Michael has been her guardian and her surrogate decision-maker. By 1998, though -- eight years after the trauma that produced Terri's situation -- Michael and Terri's parents disagreed over the proper course for her.

Rather than make the decision himself, Michael followed a procedure permitted by Florida courts by which a surrogate such as Michael can petition a court, asking the court to act as the ward's surrogate and determine what the ward would decide to do. Michael did this, and based on statements Terri made to him and others, he took the position that Terri would not wish to continue life-prolonging measures. The Schindlers took the position that Terri would continue life-prolonging measures. Under this procedure, the trial court becomes the surrogate decision-maker, and that is what happened in this case.

The trial court in this case held a trial on the dispute. Both sides were given opportunities to present their views and the evidence supporting those views. Afterwards, the trial court determined that, even applying the "clear and convincing evidence" standard -- the highest burden of proof used in civil cases -- the evidence showed that Terri would not wish to continue life-prolonging measures."
 
Notth said:
"We recognize that Mrs. Schiavo's earlier oral statements were important evidence when deciding whether she would choose in February 2000 to withdraw life-prolonging procedures... Nevertheless, the trial judge, acting as her proxy, also properly considered evidence of Mrs. Schiavo's values, personality, and her own decision-making process."
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So. Higher courts upheld the swamp judge's decision to trust Michael Schiavo and Co. about his wife's wishes and personality. That's good enough for you. Does nothing for me.

"The cause of the cardiac arrest was adduced to a dramatically reduced potassium level in Theresa's body. Sodium and potassium maintain a vital, chemical balance in the human body that helps define the electrolyte levels."

The autopsy found no proof of this. There is no proof of death due to potassium imbalance leading to a heart attack. The autopsy found NO PROOF OF A HEART ATTACK. This is good enough for you- but it's PURE BULLSHIT.


"The trial court in this case held a trial on the dispute. Both sides were given opportunities to present their views and the evidence supporting those views. Afterwards, the trial court determined that, even applying the "clear and convincing evidence" standard -- the highest burden of proof used in civil cases -- the evidence showed that Terri would not wish to continue life-prolonging measures."

And what was this "clear and convincing evidence"? Terri's alleged wishes, as expressed by her murderer and his siblings.

Sorry, th, you can't make chicken salad out of chicken ****, and the obscene torture-murder of this poor woman was one big stinking pile of chicken **** from the get-go. And I don't give a flying f**k how many black-robed scumbags legally blessed this atrocity, and I don't give a good Goddamn how many politically correct liberals get their panties in a bunch because a few of us refuse to buy into this obscenity.

Th, you're "facts" are not facts. I'll be happy to go back and forth with you for a while, if you'd like, but I know too much about this to be swayed by the kind of "facts" you've brought to the table so far. It is true that many questions remain unanswered, which is why I support this decision to look into the events of Terri's collapse, although I'm sure it will settle nothing.
 
Notth said:
. . . I just hope to god if I become a veg that the feds dont try to come to my rescue to keep me "alive" when I dont want to be.
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Well, if you're a veg, you might not care. But isn't it scary to realize that there are misguided and hateful neo-cons who would want to haunt and punish your wife for your unfortunate situation? :-[
 
You're right art. The husband was a liar, a bastard and probably a murderer. The police investigators way back when this happened and all the way to the present somehow failed to follow up and properly handle this murderous lying bastard. The judge is a whacko scumbag that didnt listen to the evidence and is as murderous as the husband by having decided on a preponderance of evidence that she wished something that nobody would ever wish. All the other appeal judges, not wanting to out the original judge for his murderous intent, decided to agree with him.

Then the governor, the congress of the united states and the president of the united states were unable to undo this murderous clans devious plan.

Now, 15 years later the governor of florida discovers new evidence that isnt new at all and has already been discounted by police investigators and doctors as being irrelevant. He's convinced that this evidence means some funny business might have happened and the husband will be dragged back into court to pay more legal fees to defend himself.

Good thing we have Jeb Bush. Otherwise that bastard would have gotten off scot free.

And where were you all this time Art with your indepth knowledge? You could have helped Jeb and George catch this summbitch a lot earlier.

I do agree with you on one item. The torture of this poor woman was awful. She should have been allowed to pass on as nature and god obviously intended her to, 15 years ago.

But lets put that aside and go back to the original post. Why do you think it took 15 years for the governor and his prosecutor to decide they needed to investigate this uncertain span between her accident and the 911 call, particularly when that was already investigated and the husband already found to have acted in a timely manner, and the attending physician concurring that if the call hadnt been made nearly immediately, that she would have been dead?
 
Notth said:
But lets put that aside and go back to the original post.  Why do you think it took 15 years for the governor and his prosecutor to decide they needed to investigate this uncertain span between her accident and the 911 call, particularly when that was already investigated and the husband already found to have acted in a timely manner, and the attending physician concurring that if the call hadnt been made nearly immediately, that she would have been dead?
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When does Jeb need to start raising those election-campaign funds?

Hillary or Jeb. Whew.
 
Well, someone in the clan does need to hang onto the job until one of the twins dries out and is old enough to run ;)

Besides, even Barbara is surprised George became prez and Jeb didnt at least get in there first. When your MOM is surprised....man...;)
 
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