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Old 02-24-2016, 04:29 PM   #221
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Thanks for confirming you missed the point altogether.
In that case, he's not the only one.

Perhaps you could explain?

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Old 02-24-2016, 04:32 PM   #222
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Another interesting article (here) from ARS Technica regarding the defense strategy Apple intends to follow.
So Apple's argument would be that the government must pay for the services, which seems to be well supported by the 5th Amendment and case law.

One factor that Apple is likely considering among all the others: If they don't provide the assistance the government is requesting and if the government has someone else do it, Apple has a lot less control over what happens next with the newly created procedure/tool. The existence of a "key" (and possibly many people with new experience in how it was built, and capable of doing it again) outside of the employ of Apple could considerably reduce the value of Apple's privacy technologies--worldwide.
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Old 02-24-2016, 04:46 PM   #223
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My iPhone is locked with a passcode. Or I can open it with my fingerprint. What I was referring to is the "self-destruct" mode that erases the data in the phone if ten incorrect pass codes are attempted. I do not have that function enabled. So in my case, the FBI could try every combination until they got it correct. So could a crook. But if I lose my phone, I will most likely have time to use the Find My Phone function on the iCloud to erase my data before anyone could get in.

The only thing I would be concerned about is any banking/financial information. If for some reason I was unable to brick my lost phone, an afternoon of phone calls to my financial institutions to alert them and change my passwords would be necessary. But I could most likely get that done before the bad guy broke into my phone.

I don't know if I should bother worrying about it. Since our whole family's personal data was compromised courtesy of OPM, my SSN/name/DOB might be floating around anyway.
With the default settings then after multiple attempts the iPhone gets locked anyway and the only way to unlock it is via the iCloud (I believe).

What I was actually referring to was your statement
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If my iPhone is lost or stolen, I could disable remotely via my iCloud account before the bad guy could manually enter all the possible combinations.
I believe that accessing the iPhone using find my iPhone does not allow you to disable it, simply lock it with a passcode, so the bad guys can still continue guessing until it locks up after a certain number of attempts. You can also choose to erase the data remotely which really does make the phone unusable to the bad guys, but still restorable by you.
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Old 02-24-2016, 05:25 PM   #224
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So Apple's argument would be that the government must pay for the services, which seems to be well supported by the 5th Amendment and case law.

One factor that Apple is likely considering among all the others: If they don't provide the assistance the government is requesting and if the government has someone else do it, Apple has a lot less control over what happens next with the newly created procedure/tool. The existence of a "key" (and possibly many people with new experience in how it was built, and capable of doing it again) outside of the employ of Apple could considerably reduce the value of Apple's privacy technologies--worldwide.
I doubt a third party could get the key to install any new firmware images on iOS devices, unless there was some slick social engineering.

As for doing it by brute force, well if that was feasible, FBI would probably be talking to the NSA, not going to court to conscript Apple.
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Old 02-24-2016, 05:29 PM   #225
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With the default settings then after multiple attempts the iPhone gets locked anyway and the only way to unlock it is via the iCloud (I believe).

What I was actually referring to was your statement


I believe that accessing the iPhone using find my iPhone does not allow you to disable it, simply lock it with a passcode, so the bad guys can still continue guessing until it locks up after a certain number of attempts. You can also choose to erase the data remotely which really does make the phone unusable to the bad guys, but still restorable by you.

Not according to my web search. The phone can be erased via iCloud.
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Old 02-24-2016, 05:48 PM   #226
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I'm quite sure that if terrorists held your child or significant other hostage and were threatening to blow them up but could be stopped if apple would just unlock the security code of the phone controlling the bomb's detonator & give it to the FBI so that the FBI could disable the detonator that you'd be telling apple to respect the terrorists' privacy & not do it. All hail privacy!!
The number ifs is awesome. Can't even begin to elaborate on that hypothetical.

It is very good at tugging at emotional strings. As one who had his own butt on the line many times, I'll pass on deconstructing the post.

Gotta love armchair theorists.

Repeat, I am for privacy.
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Old 02-24-2016, 05:53 PM   #227
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Not according to my web search. The phone can be erased via iCloud.
And everything in the iCloud is accessible to apple and easily turned over to inquiring agencies. And they have done so.
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Old 02-24-2016, 05:58 PM   #228
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For your use, as you see fit
That's original. As I suspected, you're still sore about that thread.
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Old 02-24-2016, 06:29 PM   #229
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http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/25/te...ore-ipad-share
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Old 02-24-2016, 06:44 PM   #230
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My iPhone is locked with a passcode. Or I can open it with my fingerprint. What I was referring to is the "self-destruct" mode that erases the data in the phone if ten incorrect pass codes are attempted. I do not have that function enabled. So in my case, the FBI could try every combination until they got it correct. So could a crook. But if I lose my phone, I will most likely have time to use the Find My Phone function on the iCloud to erase my data before anyone could get in.

The only thing I would be concerned about is any banking/financial information. If for some reason I was unable to brick my lost phone, an afternoon of phone calls to my financial institutions to alert them and change my passwords would be necessary. But I could most likely get that done before the bad guy broke into my phone.

I don't know if I should bother worrying about it. Since our whole family's personal data was compromised courtesy of OPM, my SSN/name/DOB might be floating around anyway.

I wouldn't use my fingerprint as your passcode in Virginia.

http://www.americancriminallawreview...fth-amendment/

Not sure how other states have ruled.


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Old 02-24-2016, 06:48 PM   #231
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Touch ID is so damn convenient though.

Used it many times for Apple Pay and virtually all my banking apps support it.
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Old 02-24-2016, 06:56 PM   #232
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Not according to my web search. The phone can be erased via iCloud.
I think we are totally in agreement just using the wrong words since you were saying that you didn't want to auto erase the device after 8 failed attempts because you can disable the phone via iCloud but you cannot disable the phone via iCloud without erasing it via iCloud. ( you can make sure it is locked by creating a new 4 digit Passcode). You simply prefer to make to make the erase decision yourself and do it manually.
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Old 02-24-2016, 07:05 PM   #233
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So, you say you have nothing to hide?

...Privacy is a basic human need. You really have nothing to hide? You won't mind if we install these cameras in your bedroom and bathroom, then. Don't worry, under the current rules only select agents will have access to the camera feeds. And we promise not to keep the recordings too long...
Privacy as a basic human need? I don't recall seeing "privacy" on a list of basic human needs.
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Old 02-24-2016, 07:05 PM   #234
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You can't always assume the phone will be accessible online.
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Old 02-24-2016, 07:24 PM   #235
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I
A prankster could ruin an iPhone by quickly fingering in 10 bad codes. That would brick your iPhone, and lock you out of your own data and photos, and Apple will not help you.
Not Really...

there are wait time after five attempts, and the last two make youwait an hour.
http://cinnamonthoughts.org/2010/09/...iled-attempts/
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Old 02-24-2016, 07:41 PM   #236
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Touch ID is so damn convenient though.

Used it many times for Apple Pay and virtually all my banking apps support it.

Understood. By the way, the same can be said about using facial recognition as a pass key (or even as a car key as Volvo has announced). Your mugshot can be compelled just like your fingerprints. Retina scan or iris scan on the other hand, might be a way around things.


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Old 02-24-2016, 09:47 PM   #237
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Privacy isn't listed as a need but is a right as recognized by SC rulings.
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Old 02-24-2016, 10:20 PM   #238
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In situations like these, I generally prefer what's best for the country over the long term... no central power should be tapping into the private communication of its citizens, and in this case means no extraction of information from smartphones or similar devices...
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This all sounds good in a philosophical sort of way.... But, what if this same sort of situation occurs a half dozen times by June? (People killed, Apple Phones, FBI, etc.). I imagine a whole bunch of people may decide this long term view maybe doesn't need to be applied.

I also wonder if the long-term view would mean much to a parent who had children that were in immediate danger and the information on the phone would save them. I bet those parents wouldn't be all that concerned about China's eventually taking advantage of the Iphone's backdoor situation with the FBI.
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True, but this is the exact same reason to justify torture... If someone knows of a plot to set off a bomb, is it right to torture them?
I think the discussion is not about torture, but about the legalities and consequences of opening up or not opening up an iPhone. I guess an iPhone could be put into a stress position until it gives up its secrets (or not). Do you know what the laws are regarding making an iPhone extremely uncomfortable for long periods of time?
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Old 02-25-2016, 08:00 AM   #239
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I think the discussion is not about torture, but about the legalities and consequences of opening up or not opening up an iPhone. I guess an iPhone could be put into a stress position until it gives up its secrets (or not). Do you know what the laws are regarding making an iPhone extremely uncomfortable for long periods of time?
I don't see it that way. The crux of the discussion, IMO, is about how we decide government policy toward thwarting terrorists. Electronic privacy is one part of it, but deciding when and if to torture people is also part of the same discussion. We are basically teasing out the line between our core values and our desire for security.
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Old 02-25-2016, 08:50 AM   #240
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The number ifs is awesome. Can't even begin to elaborate on that hypothetical.

It is very good at tugging at emotional strings. As one who had his own butt on the line many times, I'll pass on deconstructing the post.

Gotta love armchair theorists.

Repeat, I am for privacy.
Yes, two "ifs" is a ton. Who knew?

And as if apple & you aren't pulling at emotional stings with your clamor of privacy above all.

Don't know why you had to bring your butt into this unless it's highly emotional for you.

But got it, your privacy above all & to hell with anyone else.
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