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Old 02-28-2016, 12:13 PM   #321
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It's because some people say they care about ultimate privacy and nothing else.

I say we need to use technology to find a solution that protects the privacy of the innocent and safety from hackers, while also allowing access to the criminals' phone with the proper search warrant.
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Old 02-28-2016, 12:19 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by MichaelB View Post
Yes, they are two separate issues - the phone, and a back door entry into the system - that seem to move together in a funny, synchronized way. Easy to mix them, especially when most media reports lump them together.
Yes - the media reporting has been really poor. Even Krebs reported that Apple had unlocked 70 iPhones when in fact they didn't unlock those phones. They extracted certain data from the phones that was extractable even with the phones locked. Something that is not possible any more.
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Old 02-28-2016, 01:11 PM   #323
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Could this be a Third (3rd) Amendment issue? (asks the duck)
+++

From The Free Dictionary
The Third Amendment to the U.S. Constitution reads:
"No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
Ratified in 1791, the Third Amendment to the U.S. Constitution sets forth two basic requirements. During times of peace, the military may not house its troops in private residences without the consent of the owners. During times of war, the military may not house its troops in private residences except in accordance with established legal procedure. By placing these limitations on the private quartering of combatants, the Third Amendment subordinates military authority to civilian control and safeguards against abuses that can be perpetrated by standing armies and professional soldiers".

++++
(the duck is back)
So, in times of war, civilians may be required to billet solders in accordance with established legal procedures (I have no idea what they are). Anyhow, it seems to indicate that home owners can be forced by the government to turn their homes into a bed and breakfast for soldiers--housing, feeding, keeping them warm, giving them beer, etc..

Turning a house into a bnb would cause the homeowner to create something that he didn't already have (a bnb) and would also be of cost to him (which he may/may) not be reimbursed.

Please keep in mind that I am not a Third (3rd) Amendment scholar.
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Old 02-28-2016, 01:18 PM   #324
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For the Third Amendment to apply, war must first be declared. Supposedly, the Constitution says that only Congress has the power to do that. In practice, the US has mounted war many times without a formal declaration.

Caveat: I am not a lawyer, let alone a Constitution scholar. And I slept in my bed last night, not at a Holiday Inn, which might explain why I am never sure about much.

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home owners can be forced by the government to turn their homes into a bed and breakfast for soldiers--housing, feeding, keeping them warm, giving them beer, etc..
Beer? One can a day each, or a case? What if they see my XO Cognac and want a taste? Can I refuse? Is it spelled out somewhere?
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Old 02-28-2016, 01:51 PM   #325
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A side note:

It is not just that the US has formally declared war only 5 times but has fought in many, it also declared some unusual wars. I can recall War on Poverty (Lyndon Johnson), War on Cancer (Richard Nixon), War on Drugs (Richard Nixon), War on Terror (George W Bush), and these were done by US presidents, not Congress.

I say somebody needs to declare War on Cellphones. Note the cellphones and not just smartphones. These things are way overrated, and we can do without them. Really. Soon, people will realize that they are more trouble than they are worth. Ban them. People can now converse face to face or on Internet forums instead of texting.
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Old 02-28-2016, 01:56 PM   #326
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Actually, if we're looking at the bill of rights, this might be more of a 1st amendment issue. This is from EFF's analysis last year of a previous attempt by DoJ to use the same All Writs law to compel Apple to break into a phone.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/1...-not-all-writs

Quote:
... the All Writs Act is not a backdoor to bypass other laws. The government cannot impose an unreasonable burden on Apple, and it cannot violate the Constitution.

...

But if Apple in fact has this capacity, or if the government instead tried to require it to prospectively reengineer the operating system on an unlocked device, All Writs is not the means to do so. Reengineering iOS and breaking any number of Apple’s promises to its customers is the definition of an unreasonable burden. As the Ninth Circuit put it in a case interpreting technical assistance in a different context, private companies' obligations to assist the government have “not extended to circumstances in which there is a complete disruption of a service they offer to a customer as part of their business.” What’s more, such an order would be unconstitutional. Code is speech, and forcing Apple to push backdoored updates would constitute “compelled speech” in violation of the First Amendment.
I have not yet had a chance to read Apple's legal response to the latest order, but I'm interested to find out if they used this argument.
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Old 02-28-2016, 02:53 PM   #327
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For the Third Amendment to apply, war must first be declared. Supposedly, the Constitution says that only Congress has the power to do that..
You will find that life becomes so much simpler if you don't let yourself get bogged down with minor details.
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Old 02-28-2016, 03:03 PM   #328
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The correct perception of this issue:

Your Country vs Tech vs Terrorism.
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Old 02-28-2016, 03:22 PM   #329
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This thread is getting long, and I do not blame you for not following up.

I have to admit I did not read the entire thread before my first post. I've gone back now and see that NW-Bound raised many of the issues I did in my posts.

And much more eloquently than I, I would add.

My apologies, NW-Bound.
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Old 02-28-2016, 03:27 PM   #330
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Another good read, for those interested in more info, with an open mind. Some have already made up their minds based on surprisingly little...

The Apple-FBI Fight Isn’t About Privacy vs. Security. Don’t Be Misled | WIRED

Quote:
Ultimately, the reason this debate is happening at all is that there’s no legislative guidance around encryption. The All Writs Act that the FBI has cited dates to 1798, and even the most recent supporting precedent dates to 1977. Until Congress acts, the FBI will continue to attempt to gain access through the courts.
“These issues will be decided in Congress,” Bill Gates said in a recent Bloomberg TV interview, attempting to clarify previous comments that had been wrongly interpreted as him favoring the FBI. “You don’t want to just take the minute after a terrorist event and swing that direction, nor do you want to swing away from government access when you get some abuse being revealed. You want to strike that balance.”
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Old 02-28-2016, 06:38 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
Another good read, for those interested in more info, with an open mind. Some have already made up their minds based on surprisingly little...

Quote:
Quote:
Ultimately, the reason this debate is happening at all is that there’s no legislative guidance around encryption. The All Writs Act that the FBI has cited dates to 1798, and even the most recent supporting precedent dates to 1977. Until Congress acts, the FBI will continue to attempt to gain access through the courts.
“These issues will be decided in Congress,” Bill Gates said in a recent Bloomberg TV interview, attempting to clarify previous comments that had been wrongly interpreted as him favoring the FBI. “You don’t want to just take the minute after a terrorist event and swing that direction, nor do you want to swing away from government access when you get some abuse being revealed. You want to strike that balance.”
The Apple-FBI Fight Isn’t About Privacy vs. Security. Don’t Be Misled | WIRED
Encryption dates back far beyond 1977 or even 1798...

from a book I found quite interesting:

The Code Book: The Science of Secrecy from Ancient Egypt to Quantum Cryptography

The Code Book: The Science of Secrecy from Ancient Egypt to Quantum Cryptography: Simon Singh: 9780385495325: Amazon.com: Books

-ERD50
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Old 02-29-2016, 05:04 PM   #332
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Legal situation update:

James Orenstein, Magistrate Judge in the United States District Court Eastern District of New York, has ruled on a government request to compel Apple to bypass passcode security on a phone using the All Writs Act in Case 1:15-mc-01902-JO.

Apple New York 2/29/16
Quote:
The government seeks an order requiring Apple, Inc. ("Apple") to bypass the passcode security on an Apple device. It asserts that such an order will assist in the execution of a search warrant previously issued by this court, and that the All Writs Act, 28 U.S.C. § 1651(a) (the "AWA"), empowers the court to grant such relief. Docket Entry ("DE") 1 (Application). For the reasons set forth below, I conclude that under the circumstances of this case, the government has failed to establish either that the AWA permits the relief it seeks or that, even if such an order is authorized, the discretionary factors I must consider weigh in favor of granting the motion. More specifically, the established rules for interpreting a statute's text constrain me to reject the government's interpretation that the AWA empowers a court to grant any relief not outright prohibited by law. Under a more appropriate understanding of the AWA's function as a source of residual authority to issue orders that are "agreeable to the usages and principles of law," 28 U.S.C. § 1651(a), the relief the government seeks is unavailable because Congress has considered legislation that would achieve the same result but has not adopted it. In addition, applicable case law requires me to consider three factors in deciding whether to issue an order under the AWA: the closeness of Apple's relationship to the underlying criminal conduct and government investigation; the burden the requested order would impose on Apple; and the necessity of imposing such a burden on Apple. As explained below, after reviewing the facts in the record and the parties' arguments, I conclude that none of those factors justifies imposing on Apple the obligation to assist the government's investigation against its will. I therefore deny the motion.
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Old 02-29-2016, 05:12 PM   #333
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Legal situation update:

James Orenstein, Magistrate Judge in the United States District Court Eastern District of New York, has ruled on a government request to compel Apple to bypass passcode security on a phone using the All Writs Act in Case 1:15-mc-01902-JO.

Apple New York 2/29/16
Just a note, this is for a different case than the San Bernardino attacks. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/01/te...ing-order.html
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Old 02-29-2016, 05:24 PM   #334
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The three factors required for AWA application will most likely be the neutering factor in the San Bernadino case too.
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Old 03-01-2016, 11:02 PM   #335
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The issue is whether there are any situations that are "warrantless."

With tech questions, one needs to find analogous situations ...in this case, assume the same kind of information desired is inside someone's house ...in a safe. With a warrant, the authorities can, per their mandate, hire a locksmith to open the house lock, right. Once in the house, the safe could be opened by a safe specialist, right ...or, maybe not ...in that case the authorities would go to the company to obtain their assistance in opening the safe ...via court order, if needed.

It has been this way as a legal principle ...should the principles be changed simply because there is an electronic device involved? In a murder case? When did the American people begin to believe their information was sacrosanct ...just because it was a dvi d that promised absolute security? Most would believe absolute security stopped when heinous crimes begin.

Pretty simple to me ...start the indictments quickly with Apple executives ...apply every analogous precedent possible ...tie them up and see where it goes.


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Old 03-02-2016, 08:27 AM   #336
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The issue is whether there are any situations that are "warrantless."

With tech questions, one needs to find analogous situations ...in this case, assume the same kind of information desired is inside someone's house ...in a safe. With a warrant, the authorities can, per their mandate, hire a locksmith to open the house lock, right. Once in the house, the safe could be opened by a safe specialist, right ...or, maybe not ...in that case the authorities would go to the company to obtain their assistance in opening the safe ...via court order, if needed.

It has been this way as a legal principle ...should the principles be changed simply because there is an electronic device involved? In a murder case? When did the American people begin to believe their information was sacrosanct ...just because it was a dvi d that promised absolute security? Most would believe absolute security stopped when heinous crimes begin.

Pretty simple to me ...start the indictments quickly with Apple executives ...apply every analogous precedent possible ...tie them up and see where it goes.


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Let's change your analogy just a little.

Suppose the ACME Safe Company sells safes with the option of a self-destruct mode. When activated, the safe cannot be opened in any other way than by using the correct combination. If someone attempts to open the safe any other way -- drilling, brute force, removing the tumbler set, whatever -- the self-destruct function releases chemicals that dissolve the contents of the safe.

Lots of people buy ACME safes. Some of them activate the self-destruct function for nefarious reasons, others activate the self-destruct function simply for privacy. Maybe they don't want their heirs to see the cross-dressing photos, or find evidence of an affair. Whatever.

So here comes the FBI, with a safe belonging to an alleged bad guy, and a warrant to open/search the safe. But the FBI cannot open the safe without potentially activating the self-destruct mode. The FBI asks ACME Safe Company to open the safe. ACME does not have the capability. So the FBI goes to court to compel ACME to develop a method of bypassing the self-destruct mode. ACME does not want to develop a backdoor because (choose one or all): it will cost ACME time/money to try to do this; or developing a backdoor will demonstrate that a backdoor is possible, opening up ACME safes to potential attacks by safecrackers / lessening the security of the ACME safes already sold, and potentially hurting future sales of ACME safes.

(I don't know the reasons that Apple is using to fight the court order, I just made up some reasons for ACME to fight the scenario).

So I've taken technology out of the scenario. I believe the crux of the issue is compelling ACME (or Apple) to hand over something that does not exist. It will be an interesting court battle.
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Apple v FBI
Old 03-02-2016, 08:28 AM   #337
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Apple v FBI

Late to the thread, so I'm hoping someone already said this, namely, that there were critical mistakes made by the County and the FBI, and now they want Apple to fix those mistakes. For example, the County had the ability and right to ensure that EDM was fully installed and enabled on the phone. It didn't. The FBI reset the iCloud password, preventing a iCloud backup. There are probably more, but those are the most prominent ones.

EDIT: just saw this article on Yahoo that bears out the foregoing.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fbi-di...194307653.html

Also, the FBI is only speculating that there might be evidence on a County-issued phone. If there were actual evidence that could support a reasonable suspicion that such speculation was accurate, then Apple might be in a more precarious position. As it stands, the mere chance that there is evidence should not override the concrete damage that Apple would experience to its reputation and viability as a business, putting aside the larger question of personal privacy. In other words, a court doesn't even need to get to the privacy question. Knowing a run of the mill drug case would be insufficient, the FBI thought a terrorism case would be the best vehicle for getting from a court what it hasn't been able to get from Congress.


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Old 03-02-2016, 09:13 AM   #338
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Knowing a run of the mill drug case would be insufficient, the FBI thought a terrorism case would be the best vehicle for getting from a court what it hasn't been able to get from Congress.
Actually, the FBI has recently tried to apply the All Writs Act to compel Apple to do the same thing in a drug case, and this was denied. The FBI is working on multiple fronts.

Federal Judge Denies Request To Force Apple To Extract Data From iPhones In Drug Case

N.Y. judge backs Apple in encryption fight with government | Reuters
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Old 03-02-2016, 09:15 AM   #339
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...Lots of people buy ACME safes. Some of them activate the self-destruct function for nefarious reasons, others activate the self-destruct function simply for privacy. Maybe they don't want their heirs to see the cross-dressing photos, or find evidence of an affair. Whatever...
Where can I buy one of these ACME safes?
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Old 03-02-2016, 09:25 AM   #340
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Never mind. Found one on Craig's list.
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